How many first round loses is Dubas allowed before he should be fired?

[Anthrax442]

Lou inherited a sub 70 point team.

Within 3 years he set a franchise record in points and had us make the PO two years in a row, something that we had not accomplished since around 2004.

Dubas inherited a 105 point team and has zero playoff wins in four years.

Lou went to a sub 80 point isles team and has made the semi finals twice in three years along with two gm of year awards.

The fact the dubas fan boys are still trying to tell us how inferior Lou is despite the results is quite astonishing.

But seeing as you voted for the last option you are clearly not even a Leafs fan so I don't know why you are in the Leafs sub forum.

A Leafs fan wants their team to win the cup. Why would you want to keep a gm in charge of our team when we can't even win one measly round?



That's the funny thing.

Anyone who doubts dubas would have nothing to say if we actually won a few rounds after four years.

Instead we are told by the dubas fan boys to be patient and appreciate the respect we got from Tampa in the hand shake line.

It's absurd. There's no way people can be this dense. They must be trolls or paid off by someone.

Lou's job was to get rid of crap contracts, and when he lefft.. he left us with a bunch of crap contracts and 3 years of shit drafting and dealing good picks for TDL duds.
+ he pissed of Marner unnecessarily by denying him the bonuses.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Imagine trading a first round pick for an injured foligno.

Yet so many dubas fan boys act like all of his moves are gold.

It's like facts don't even matter to them.

Foligno was injured before he got here. Some people recall him saying the day after he first got hurt in Winnipeg that it was an injury he was managing all season and just "flared" up and he would be fine. Now either CBJ ripped us off or more than likely they told Dubas about a nagging injury and he went ahead anyway. I guess you can now understand why Shanny was not over joyed at the trade when it happened on the Prime Series. It makes sense.

 

[egd27]

I was told we would get to the finals if we got by Tampa.

I was told that would happen once we annihilated Montreal last season.

 

[ShaneFalco]

If the team keeps failing, wouldn't that mean he hasn't assembled a team that is "good enough to win"?

Also, if the Leafs won agaisnt tampa, wouldn't you be giving dubas lots of credit?

But since we lost, it isn't his fault?



Imagine trading a first round pick for an injured foligno.

Yet so many dubas fan boys act like all of his moves are gold.

It's like facts don't even matter to them.

What's worse is Dubas wanted him back

 

[Clark4Ever]

We h

eard that last year and he is still here. Mess has a good point that as long as Shanny is here so is Dubas

If we fail to advance next season, I think they are all toast including Shanny.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

In Imaginationland?

What if they play the Habs, Capitals, Blue Jackets, Lightning, or Bruins again?

In real life, those teams seem to have our number...

There may be others in the East as well, we just haven't discovered them yet seeing as we're 0 for 6 so far...

It's pretty simple really. We can't play a team that is too good (TB). We can't play a team that is bad (Montreal)....my failure as a fan is that I can't seem to find the perfect level of mediocrity for us to play against to win.

In the context of sports yes.

Nobody will remember the 2021 Habs except for Habs fans.

No one remembers the 2020 Stars

No one remembers the 2019 Bruins

The 2017 Predators, 2016 Sharks, 2015 Lightning, 2014 Rangers, 2013 Bruins, 2012 Devils, 2010 Flyers, 2009 Red Wings, 2008 Penguins etc.

We only remember the 2018 Golden Knights because they were the most successful first year team in sports history and the 2011 Canucks because their fans rioted after the fact.

Success in North American sports is a 1 or 0 proposition. You win the title or you don't.

Fair enough...but then why do we have a draft order based on when you get booted from the playoffs? Shouldn't it be all teams having a chance at the top of the draft with a lottery of some sort?

 

[egd27]

I hated that Foligno trade since I heard the rumour they were interested. When I saw the price I really hated it but hoped it would work. . He has made some bad decisions for sure. But the Foligno trade felt more like a caving in to outside pressure of this team not being gritty enough to play playoff style hockey. some could look at this and say it was an obvious failure. Or you can at least give Dubas credit for trying a different approach that strayed away from his previous MO. Even this year he went with a heavier D. I thought it paid off. Just not enough clearly.

I thought it was very telling during the Nothing or Nothing series when Dubas was rationalizing adding the 4th to the deal for Foligno as if that was possibly the "overpayment" but thought nothing of handing over the 1st.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So you don't care how many first round loses we have with dubas as gm?

You would think actual leaf fans would want their team to succeed. That would involve winning rounds in the PO.

If the current management is unable to, they need to go. That much should be obvious.

Of course I care. I've been a fan for over 50 years FFS, what a stupid thing to say.

You're obviously very angry and unable to think straight. I'd suggest you take a break from posting but that would probably just make even angrier so I have no idea what to say to you.

Have a nice day. Is it Ok to say that?

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Change the core, they've been a bigger part of the clown show.

The core is literally the only common denominator between all 6 exits. The only players remaining from the 1st Boston series are Willy, AM, MM and Moe. At some point you have to start thinking they will not be able to do it with this mix of talent up front.

We either get goalied...and people say depth scoring is the issue...or the stars are shitty and they say they didn't show up. It's always one of 2 excuses. Me, I think that the mix is wrong and we keep hoping we can score like we do in the regular season and win when it almost never works that way. Just ask Florida how being the scoring leaders is working for them now in the playoffs with an 0/25 PP.

 

[egd27]

Lou's job was to get rid of crap contracts, and when he lefft.. he left us with a bunch of crap contracts and 3 years of shit drafting and dealing good picks for TDL duds.
+ he pissed of Marner unnecessarily by denying him the bonuses.

Are we still trotting out this old chestnut? Marleau's third year was bad, but could have easily been ridden out without spending $11M on a #2C. Zaitsev's was bad.

 

[ShaneFalco]

The core is literally the only common denominator between all 6 exits. The only players remaining from the 1st Boston series are Willy, AM, MM and Moe. At some point you have to start thinking they will not be able to do it with this mix of talent up front.

We either get goalied...and people say depth scoring is the issue...or the stars are shitty and they say they didn't show up. It's always one of 2 excuses. Me, I think that the mix is wrong and we keep hoping we can score like we do in the regular season and win when it almost never works that way. Just ask Florida how being the scoring leaders is working for them now in the playoffs with an 0/25 PP.

Wrong mix and Dubas has tried to bring in "character" guys and toughness to cover up the lack of killer instinct. and immaturity of his core not named Rielly

 

[Mess]

Sadly winning 1 round appears to be the bar and will no doubt result in a contract extension for Dubas. If you are happy with 6 first round exits in a row because this time you played better, that pretty much speaks volumes on your mindset.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut so sure, given 10 chances you are bound to win one at some point.

I didn't trust my Leafs to win a series potential game, but I trusted the math and odds with the probability of losing in 5 consecutive series clinching final games which had never happened in pro sports in the NHL or Major league Baseball nor NBA previously, with Leafs now setting a new standard in futility in major sports series, was something only Leafs could pull off. Leafs entered the Tampa series 0-8 with this core.

On some sports show I saw those probability odds of 5 consecutive series clinging losses something like +27,000 to 1, before I placed my Vegas bet.



Dubas is an analytics guru as some say anyways, so he knew himself how unlikely losing game #7 was historically, but still Dubas managed to hit on the 0.0036% and run Leafs record up to 0-10 in the process. That sure is something he can put on his resume as he is now the Guinness record holder in this category as a GM, and never achieved in pro sports history previously.

If this dismal achievement, establishing new levels of futility in pro sports gets you a full endorsement from your boss, that you're doing great then the end is clearly not near. In fact just think of the odds next year of Leafs making another 1st round loss when having an opportunity to advance now by doubling down on this core again and then what +56,000 to 1. So stay the course is the Leafs management plan because sooner or later the odds have to break your way and you will win a round with Dubas as GM, on the mere thought you can't defy them forever.

Lets "run it back" and see if 6 straight round #1 losses in winner-take-all games is possible., Just a little fine tweaking around the edges away from a Cup now.

Some organizations with a +55 year Cup drought and a 18 year and counting run without a playoff win, with now a new record in series collapses, would desire change, but not in Toronto they send the stability message instead, and feed Leaf Nation fans perhaps the lamest reason ever of earning respect in the handshake line as the reason they like the teams progress and proving to the World that results simply do not matter in their decision making process.

Such is the Life of Leaf fan, hand over a 105 point record setting and playoff team, and the new GM takes it to new record setting highs but not the ones we wanted.

 

[keonsbitterness]

We heard that last year and he is still here. Mess has a good point that as long as Shanny is here so is Dubas

From fans, sure, but not from MLSE. Nothing even close. This year it was revealed after the game 7 loss that 22-23 will be the final year of his deal. No one knew his contract status before that.

Dubas is officially on the clock.

 

[ShaneFalco]

We h

eard that last year and he is still here. Mess has a good point that as long as Shanny is here so is Dubas

And as long as Dubas is here so is Keefe - you know because in 10 years we'll all look back and compare him to the greats. A guy who can't adapt

 

[Sammy Kat]

Lou's job was to get rid of crap contracts, and when he lefft.. he left us with a bunch of crap contracts and 3 years of shit drafting and dealing good picks for TDL duds.
+ he pissed of Marner unnecessarily by denying him the bonuses.

Boy do I ever disagree with this description and comparison.

Lou cleared out a ton of bad contracts and as another said left us with the Zaitsev contract which was not good.
Marleau was not bad but made bad by Dubas who was incompetent in how he handled it.
When Lou left the Leafs had a massive amount of cap space and Dubas ran out and could not spend it fast enough signing JT in a bad timing and then way overpaying our young core thinking it is okay since we have a lot of cap to play around with.

Now how about Dubas and contracts,his getting bent over after caving in to Nylander and showing every agent out there he is a joke put this team in the hole and has not yet recovered.
Then he signs a couple of decent middle guys and has to then pretty much give them away because he no longer could pay them.
Since then he has been reduced to dollar store signings and trades for guys on their last legs or cannot stay healthy again due to his wrecking our cap.

Fans went nuts because Lou traded away 2nd rd picks 2 years running to get some stable vets to help the young guys.
These same fans somehow look away at Dubas trading away a ton of 1st,2nd,3rd rd picks and draining our minors for same type players and ended up with no better results.

Drafting neither has done much but Dubas continuing to draft smaller low grit types keeps our future locked into the same thing we already have while at least Lou tried to mix it up for some balance.

In the end Dubas was handed a deep talented young core,lots of cap,lots of picks and a deep minors and turned it into 4 players,a few decent guys,an almost empty minors,few picks and an awful cap situation.

A master con artist can make his marks believe even after failures to keep investing.
Dubas is a master con artist because with his charm and boyish grins and smooth talking he keeps selling the same garbage and most are somehow still buying it after 3 years in a row of the same results.

Kyle Madoff,oops I mean Dubas,wrecked this team and blew what should have been a real chance at a winner.
Would Lou have done better? Who knows but he sure as hell would not have done worse.

 

[ToneDog]

Boy do I ever disagree with this description and comparison.

Lou cleared out a ton of bad contracts and as another said left us with the Zaitsev contract which was not good.
Marleau was not bad but made bad by Dubas who was incompetent in how he handled it.
When Lou left the Leafs had a massive amount of cap space and Dubas ran out and could not spend it fast enough signing JT in a bad timing and then way overpaying our young core thinking it is okay since we have a lot of cap to play around with.

Now how about Dubas and contracts,his getting bent over after caving in to Nylander and showing every agent out there he is a joke put this team in the hole and has not yet recovered.
Then he signs a couple of decent middle guys and has to then pretty much give them away because he no longer could pay them.
Since then he has been reduced to dollar store signings and trades for guys on their last legs or cannot stay healthy again due to his wrecking our cap.

Fans went nuts because Lou traded away 2nd rd picks 2 years running to get some stable vets to help the young guys.
These same fans somehow look away at Dubas trading away a ton of 1st,2nd,3rd rd picks and draining our minors for same type players and ended up with no better results.

Drafting neither has done much but Dubas continuing to draft smaller low grit types keeps our future locked into the same thing we already have while at least Lou tried to mix it up for some balance.

In the end Dubas was handed a deep talented young core,lots of cap,lots of picks and a deep minors and turned it into 4 players,a few decent guys,an almost empty minors,few picks and an awful cap situation.

A master con artist can make his marks believe even after failures to keep investing.
Dubas is a master con artist because with his charm and boyish grins and smooth talking he keeps selling the same garbage and most are somehow still buying it after 3 years in a row of the same results.

Kyle Madoff,oops I mean Dubas,wrecked this team and blew what should have been a real chance at a winner.
Would Lou have done better? Who knows but he sure as hell would not have done worse.

Four years but apparently nobody at MLSEL thinks enough is enough.

 

[Community]

So what is next years bar? Say we lose in the conf final. Everyone is happy and everyone keeps their job and we run it back?

Personally this group of players and management have been given a very long run way.

It’s Stanley Cup win that’s then only way this group stays. Anything else it’s scorched earth 1.5.

That's ridiculous.

This team goes to the SC Finals, game 7 OT and then loses because a puck takes a crazy bounce off a stanchion and into the net and you're telling management to blow up the team?

As has been said previously, context matters. While they didn't get any further, there was progress from last year. Now if they have the same thing happen next year where their first round match-up is the defending Champs and they lose in 7, they're not going to be as safe because sooner or later you have to break through.... but they played a great series and never choked like they did with Montreal. I'd love for them to still be playing and they need to break through soon (this might be the last chsnce to at least break through rd 1, expectations are higher but thats probably the bare minimum), but this year is much easier to stomach than last years pitiful display.

 

[myleafs]

He should already be fired. He’s had so many chances with an amazing core he inherited.

He doesn’t have the stones to make the tough moves necessary to win cups.

Ive been thinking about this lately....man he got some good parts to start his gm job. Not many gms step into their new roll with the kind of players Dubas was given. Not that Im a huge Lou fan or anything but what has Dubas done that Lou didnt do and what was the point of firing the guy that got this team to the playoffs in the first place and gave a good hard effort agaisnt the Caps and Bruins. When I say it out loud it sounds weird. Team sucks and is never in the playoffs ...in comes lou, creates some accountability and the leafs make the playoffs and break a record for most points in a leafs season and is let go for a rookie gm who hires a rookie coach, and here we are no further than we were when Lou was here.

 

[kevsh]

North American sports has zero distinctions for failures or successes for good teams. You either win the title or lose. Off the top of your head name the teams that made it to the second round of the NHL playoffs in 2008. None of them are remembered any more than the ones that didn't except for the Cup champ and finalist that year. It's the same in the NBA, NFL and MLB.

If you want to celebrate non-title successes, watch European soccer.

This is such a terrible and unrealistic take.
Of course most of us don't remember which teams made it to the second round 14 years ago, but I'm sure those teams' fans do. And unless this team does something spectacular soon all us Leafs fans are going to remember for a long time is how the team didn't win a single round for 6 straight years. Great success is memorable, obviously, but so is great failure.

Secondly, keeping the comparisons to hockey, before this latest run by the Leafs I'd bet no one would have guessed any GM could survive this kind of embarrassment and failure, never mind in such a high profile, high pressure (and desperate for success) market like Toronto.

Now to be fair, if over the past 6 years the Leafs had, for example, made a couple of conference finals, a couple of second rounds but got beat by Tampa this year in the opening round there'd be a lot of complaining, even a few suggesting Dubas get fired.

The immediate goal in Toronto clearly is winning the Cup and I think it's reasonable for fans to expect a team that has been this good the past 4 years or so to be able to at least get close. So for this team to publicly declare that everyone is safe (though that may not hold up as the summer progresses) is mystifying in the high stakes world of pro sports. What MLSE is doing is called fostering a losing culture and I've seen few examples in any North American pro sport of team that has failed to meet expectations so many times (consecutively to boot) with no accountability.

 

[Stephen]

Boy do I ever disagree with this description and comparison.

Lou cleared out a ton of bad contracts and as another said left us with the Zaitsev contract which was not good.
Marleau was not bad but made bad by Dubas who was incompetent in how he handled it.
When Lou left the Leafs had a massive amount of cap space and Dubas ran out and could not spend it fast enough signing JT in a bad timing and then way overpaying our young core thinking it is okay since we have a lot of cap to play around with.

Now how about Dubas and contracts,his getting bent over after caving in to Nylander and showing every agent out there he is a joke put this team in the hole and has not yet recovered.
Then he signs a couple of decent middle guys and has to then pretty much give them away because he no longer could pay them.
Since then he has been reduced to dollar store signings and trades for guys on their last legs or cannot stay healthy again due to his wrecking our cap.

Fans went nuts because Lou traded away 2nd rd picks 2 years running to get some stable vets to help the young guys.
These same fans somehow look away at Dubas trading away a ton of 1st,2nd,3rd rd picks and draining our minors for same type players and ended up with no better results.

Drafting neither has done much but Dubas continuing to draft smaller low grit types keeps our future locked into the same thing we already have while at least Lou tried to mix it up for some balance.

In the end Dubas was handed a deep talented young core,lots of cap,lots of picks and a deep minors and turned it into 4 players,a few decent guys,an almost empty minors,few picks and an awful cap situation.

A master con artist can make his marks believe even after failures to keep investing.
Dubas is a master con artist because with his charm and boyish grins and smooth talking he keeps selling the same garbage and most are somehow still buying it after 3 years in a row of the same results.

Kyle Madoff,oops I mean Dubas,wrecked this team and blew what should have been a real chance at a winner.
Would Lou have done better? Who knows but he sure as hell would not have done worse.

We don't need to make Lou look like a hero. We have 4 years of Lou strategy on Long Island. Might want to check what he gave Devon Toews away for, and how much combined cap space guys like Lee, Nelson, Pageau, Bailey, Palmieri take up as the price of success for those 2 runs which feel like a distant memory now.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Lou cleared out a ton of bad contracts and as another said left us with the Zaitsev contract which was not good.
Marleau was not bad but made bad by Dubas who was incompetent in how he handled it.

tough to reason with anyone who says the Marleau contract was "not bad."

 

[AvroArrow]

I personally think having already wasted 4 years is more than enough.

But as long as you don't flip flop next year and say "one more year" I can accept that.

I wanted to make this poll so that way if we do lose again next year in the opening round, I'll be able to look back and see how honest posters were.

I wouldn't call them wasted exactly. Bruins series was a joke, officials threw game 2, much easier to win 3/7 than 4/7, plus the Kadri suspension.

CBJ series was a choke job

Montreal series, several key injuries, yes it was 3-1 and we probably should have closed it out. But no Tavares/Muzzin/Foligno, Matthews wrist was gone and you can legitimately make an argument that Dermott/Galchenyuk threw the series.

This year, we were the far better team IMO. But when the officials are that biased towards 1 team, it becomes very difficult to win. Game 6, phantom PP allow TB to tie the game, countless missed calls against them including 4 on the eventual OT winner. And game 7 was just as bad.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

There’s a pretty clear agenda on this thread.

Dubas’ has made some mistakes but overall, he has done an incredible job in building a competent management structure around the team.

He’s been great with drafting, player development and pro scouting for the most part, and has shown some solid creativity. It’s not so easy to just lump all of the first round losses with past management and coaches under him.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Wrong mix and Dubas has tried to bring in "character" guys and toughness to cover up the lack of killer instinct. and immaturity of his core not named Rielly

I appreciate the fact that Dubas has gone a 180 on his philosophy after realizing he'd f***ed up. However, I don't think he actually knows what to look for in a player when it comes to "intangibles".

 

[daveleaf]

Back in the day Detroit had consective losses to the Leafs and San Jose twice I believe before Bowman was brought in. He made a philosophical change and the rest is history. He trade a very talented Fedorv and big body Primeau for Shanahan. Brought in veteran goaler Vernon and made the team had bite. The rest is history.

Again this team has multiple chances to eliminate an opponent and fails, At least make the coaching change but nothing. What this team needs is what it had in Kadri, Someone with bite that gets under the other teams skin but can back it up, with his play and toughness.

This franchise is abysmal.