How long before Shero feels the pressure? Fire Shero?

How long until you hold him accountable?


  • Total voters
    165
Status
Not open for further replies.

hidek91

Registered User
Jan 13, 2014
1,823
1,471
Warsaw, PL
This is what this thread is really about, our roster isn't a contender obviously, but we're better than a last place team. It's the losing culture thats the norm nowadays, from the players to the fans.

Regarding losing culture of fans, there are reasonable people here who realize that the way NHL is built, it's almost impossible to build legit contender without proper rebuild and some top picks. By the same token, there were people here who wanted to be competitive in 2017...

And regarding the players, what people don't seem to realize is that if Taylor Hall had winning mentality, EDM would never move him, nevermind trading him for Larsson. I do agree with your point generally but what else can Shero do? You're not getting "winning" mentality players here e. g. Chara, Bergeron, Kane, Toews, Malkin, Crosby here because their original teams would never give them up voluntarily and moreover why would they join the losing team? The only fix to this is complete rebuild and change of culture but it's not going to happen as quickly as we'd like to. Gotta stay patient.
 
  • Like
Reactions: My3Sons

guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
9,091
7,676
Regarding losing culture of fans, there are reasonable people here who realize that the way NHL is built, it's almost impossible to build legit contender without proper rebuild and some top picks. By the same token, there were people here who wanted to be competitive in 2017...

And regarding the players, what people don't seem to realize is that if Taylor Hall had winning mentality, EDM would never move him, nevermind trading him for Larsson. I do agree with your point generally but what else can Shero do? You're not getting "winning" mentality players here e. g. Chara, Bergeron, Kane, Toews, Malkin, Crosby here because their original teams would never give them up voluntarily and moreover why would they join the losing team? The only fix to this is complete rebuild and change of culture but it's not going to happen as quickly as we'd like to. Gotta stay patient.
Doesn’t this beg the question...then why did Ray trade for Hall if that’s the case...or make any of these trades at all?

This is what I mean when I say I don’t see a vision. We gave away assets (not major assets but assets nonetheless) for what exactly? If you’re going to rebuild in the manner you’re suggesting (and you really believe it’s the best path) then do it 100%. To me this just means we’ve slowed the rebuild by several years.

by the way I voted to wait until after the offseason to see what Ray does before considering giving him the ax. My stance is that I’m not impressed by what he’s done in 5 years here and he’s now on a short leash. Up to this point he certainly doesn’t deserve the accolades he gets from many fans. He gets an incomplete grade so far in my book, but there are a shit ton of red flags with this organization under his leadership and they’ve been there from the very beginning IMO.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
Nov 6, 2005
73,050
47,362
PA
what assets did we give up....? Adam Larsson and a bunch of 2nd/3rd round picks?

Those are hardly assets. Do you REALLY think we'd be better off right now without any of those trades? Thats crazy talk.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hidek91 and My3Sons

Triumph

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
14,035
14,998
More importantly, it's a recognition of where the Devils are at organizationally to deal 2nd round picks - the team is short on older players and has a surplus of picks and cap space. Instead of signing a UFA, which is a declining asset, Shero dealt 2nd round picks for some known quantities (Johansson, Subban) and some lesser known (Palmieri, Mueller, Gusev). I'd say he's 1 for 3 in the lesser-known assset deals, but still, a 2nd round pick is about 10 percent to become an average NHLer or better, and no one consistently finds NHLers in the 2nd round.
 
  • Like
Reactions: My3Sons

Oneiro

Registered User
Mar 28, 2013
9,904
12,026
I think the vision was add as much skill and speed as possible. Which is funny since some of the more skilled adds - Subban, Gusev, Butcher - are very slow. I think they haven't added much mental speed to the team, however. Like every other team in the NHL, they could really use a player like Ekholm, prime Greene/Vlasic, etc. Someone with good risk management but skilled enough not to suppress the transition game.

I'm a pro-Shero fan. Acting like the Hall, Palmieri, Mojo and Subban deals are no big deal is flat out being stubborn. Results matter, but you do those deals every day of the week. And he's had some success with the bargain bin in Gibbons and Noesen. The Mueller and Grabner deals were not great, to say the least. The Maroon trade was. I think that's an objectively good record for trades/waiver experiments.

It's too early to judge the drafting. And if you don't feel that way, you should acknowledge that only now are we seeing the fruits of a slight Conte recovery with Blackwood, Coleman, Wood and Severson. I hate the McLeod pick. That being said, Bratt, Boqvist, Smith, Zetterlund, Talvitie, Anderson, etc. and quite a few more - these guys are still in the mix, still growing. We've given ourselves a good shot at not having to spend on depth players for a long time. We'll see how it works out.

This team plays a dumb brand of hockey. How much is Shero and how much is Hynes, we won't know until we make a change. In general, I think the NHL has actually gotten dumber but more physically gifted at the average and insanely skilled/intelligent at the top end. The failure of this staff is thinking that you can take those top-end approaches and apply them to an entire team of widely-varied hockey IQ. There's a reason people harp on structure and habits so much: you can't count on people being self-starters, even at the NHL level. So if they have poor judgment, take the judgment out of their hands and have them play with better structure.
 

My3Sons

Nobody told me there'd be days like these...
Sponsor
I do t think the owners have given one minute of thought to the slow start as having anything to do with Shero. Maybe they are paying attention to Hall not extending but they seem committed to the process and as long as Shero doesn’t bury the long term future when Hall and Hughes et al are ready to compete I don’t think they are unhappy. If they were do you really think Hynes is still here?
 

The 29th Pick

Still Alive !
Dec 7, 2007
19,430
6,641
Northvale N.J.
Regarding losing culture of fans, there are reasonable people here who realize that the way NHL is built, it's almost impossible to build legit contender without proper rebuild and some top picks. By the same token, there were people here who wanted to be competitive in 2017...

And regarding the players, what people don't seem to realize is that if Taylor Hall had winning mentality, EDM would never move him, nevermind trading him for Larsson. I do agree with your point generally but what else can Shero do? You're not getting "winning" mentality players here e. g. Chara, Bergeron, Kane, Toews, Malkin, Crosby here because their original teams would never give them up voluntarily and moreover why would they join the losing team? The only fix to this is complete rebuild and change of culture but it's not going to happen as quickly as we'd like to. Gotta stay patient.
I'm not talking about the 20 people here at HF, I'm talking about the thousands of fans that buy tickets and merchandise. There's a lot of booing going on in Newark these days
Shero can continue "his" rebuild while getting a hardnose coach that isn't a pushover like Hynes, when I see our players smiling and joking around on the bench while we're getting spanked by the Senators it pisses me off.
 

Poppy Whoa Sonnet

J'Accuse!
Jan 24, 2007
7,620
8,298
At this point I'm resigned to Hall being auctioned off at the deadline. I trust him somewhat to handle that.

But going into next year he's got to figure out what to do about the goaltending situation. Maybe it will sort itself out but it's currently not in an acceptable state, even with Blackwood providing some hope.
 

guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
9,091
7,676
what assets did we give up....? Adam Larsson and a bunch of 2nd/3rd round picks?

Those are hardly assets. Do you REALLY think we'd be better off right now without any of those trades? Thats crazy talk.
Please explain how we are better off with these trades? It hasn’t translated to wins. It hasn’t translated to a more entertaining product. It hasn’t even translated to progressively better product from year to year. So what have we gained from it?

This is just craziness to me. Praising the the individual acts while ignoring the overall product. It’s like saying someone is a good chef because they chose some good looking ingredients even though the dish tastes like shit.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
Nov 6, 2005
73,050
47,362
PA
Please explain how we are better off with these trades? It hasn’t translated to wins. It hasn’t translated to a more entertaining product. It hasn’t even translated to progressively better product from year to year. So what have we gained from it?

This is just craziness to me. Praising the the individual acts while ignoring the overall product. It’s like saying someone is a good chef because they chose some good looking ingredients even though the dish tastes like ****.

man if only we had Adam Larsson and a couple of 2nd rounders, we'd certainly be in a better situation.

woof.
 

guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
9,091
7,676
man if only we had Adam Larsson and a couple of 2nd rounders, we'd certainly be in a better situation.

woof.
Perhaps not better but we couldn’t be worse because we are literally among the worst teams in the league.

do you think those trades improved our or sped up our rebuild? At best they didn’t make any difference. You just keep saying we are better off but explain to me how..:I’ve been waiting...
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
Nov 6, 2005
73,050
47,362
PA
Perhaps not better but we couldn’t be worse because we are literally among the worst teams in the league.

do you think those trades improved our or sped up our rebuild? At best they didn’t make any difference. You just keep saying we are better off but explain to me how..:I’ve been waiting...

take Hall, Palmieri, Butcher, Gusev, and Subban off the team

where would we be?

they are better because they have better players than they would have without these players. It isn't rocket science.
 

The Devil In I

Registered User
Jun 28, 2005
4,200
1,175
NJ
Please explain how we are better off with these trades? It hasn’t translated to wins. It hasn’t translated to a more entertaining product. It hasn’t even translated to progressively better product from year to year. So what have we gained from it?

This is just craziness to me. Praising the the individual acts while ignoring the overall product. It’s like saying someone is a good chef because they chose some good looking ingredients even though the dish tastes like ****.

To pick up on the analogy...

This is like taking a bite of a meal that's still being cooked and yelling at the chef because you didn't give him enough time to finish cooking the f***en meat.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hidek91 and Oneiro

guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
9,091
7,676
take Hall, Palmieri, Butcher, Gusev, and Subban off the team

where would we be?

they are better because they have better players than they would have without these players. It isn't rocket science.
We’d be in last place...exactly where we are now.

Seriously...?
 

guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
9,091
7,676
To pick up on the analogy...

This is like taking a bite of a meal that's still being cooked and yelling at the chef because you didn't give him enough time to finish cooking the ****en meat.
This chef has been cooking for five f***ing years and not only does the dish taste bad, it’s tasted exactly the same since the moment he started cooking. He can keep working on it a while longer but it’s close to the time where I’m gonna want someone else to come in and do something to make it actually taste good.
 

Devils731

Registered User
Jun 23, 2008
13,029
18,661
To pick up on the analogy...

This is like taking a bite of a meal that's still being cooked and yelling at the chef because you didn't give him enough time to finish cooking the ****en meat.

I think it’s more the manager stocked the pantry with good ingredients but his chef has no idea what to do with them and has made a nice chicken tartare.
 

Zajacs Bowl Cut

Lets Go Baby
Nov 6, 2005
73,050
47,362
PA
“We are in a better last place with these guys than the last place we would be in with second round picks”

completely nonsensical

If we had league average goaltending this year, we'd probably have at least 2-3 more wins. Do you agree or disagree?

that would put us right in the middle of the pack.

If you can't see that having these players (instead of Adam Larsson and a couple of 2nd/3rd round picks) is better for not only NOW but in the future moving forward, you're out to lunch.
 
Last edited:

The Devil In I

Registered User
Jun 28, 2005
4,200
1,175
NJ
This chef has been cooking for five ****ing years and not only does the dish taste bad, it’s tasted exactly the same since the moment he started cooking.

Four. Four drafts.

Every player Shero/Castron has drafted is under 23 years old still (maybe under 22?). This team had next to nothing in terms of roster or prospect value when he took over. The foundation of a winning team is generally between like 25 and 30 years old. Outside of maybe teams that draft generational players that come in and dominate the league right away. Did you expect to build via free agency? How the f*** else is he supposed to get value into the organization other than drafting and smart trades?

Maybe a better analogy...you have a house that has a fundamentally flawed foundation, to the point that it's been deemed unsafe to life in. The house gets torn down and a contractor works on putting up a new one in that lot. At the point that you have a new foundation and the structure of a house in place, you decide to fire the contractor because "no progress has been made" because you still don't have a place to live.
 
  • Like
Reactions: hidek91 and My3Sons

Oneiro

Registered User
Mar 28, 2013
9,904
12,026
I mean...if I close my eyes and blindly pick stocks and I magically beat the S&P by 75%, is my process good simply because my results are?

And on the flip side, just adding skill without thinking of the context is also not a solution, by the way. A coach for a team like this, just as in Toronto, is critical. You've got some great skill on this roster and you don't want to diminish the upside, but at the same time, there's a uniformity to teams that are true killers - they have a plan and they execute to the last man. It's a balancing act and I don't think Hynes is the guy for it.
 

guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
9,091
7,676
Four. Four drafts.

Every player Shero/Castron has drafted is under 23 years old still (maybe under 22?). This team had next to nothing in terms of roster or prospect value when he took over. The foundation of a winning team is generally between like 25 and 30 years old. Outside of maybe teams that draft generational players that come in and dominate the league right away. Did you expect to build via free agency? How the **** else is he supposed to get value into the organization other than drafting and smart trades?

Maybe a better analogy...you have a house that has a fundamentally flawed foundation, to the point that it's been deemed unsafe to life in. The house gets torn down and a contractor works on putting up a new one in that lot. At the point that you have a new foundation and the structure of a house in place, you decide to fire the contractor because "no progress has been made" because you still don't have a place to live.
Yeah I can think of numerous legitimate reasons why one might fire the contractor in this situation.
 

guitarguyvic

Registered User
Mar 31, 2010
9,091
7,676
In three years with any luck that nonsensical statement will prove to be true.

You really can’t see the difference in stinking with 21 year old talented players versus stinking with 30 year old broken down players?
That’s not what is being debated. This is the difference between stinking with acquisitions who have not contributed to winning + will soon be past their primes versus stinking while still keeping all of our picks.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad