How long before Shero feels the pressure? Fire Shero?

[guitarguyvic]

If you're really going to argue that the organization was better off in 2015 than it is now....whew boy.

It's hard to argue we were better off in 2015, but it's also hard to argue we are in a better place now. It's also hard to argue that Ray has done more good than bad. That's an argument that requires no comparison to the previous regime.

So in 2015 our prospect pool was devoid of top end talent. We were not in a good place. I get that.
Five years later, what do we have? Our prospect pool is modestly better, mostly because we tanked/lucked our way to two lottery ball wins. We don't have multiple blue chip prospects knocking on the door. On D particularly we have little in the way of talent that will be ready anytime soon, because the drafting was incredibly forward focused. Why was obtaining D talent not at all prioritized for so long? Several shrewd trades were made but they haven't resulted in on ice success...because there appears to have been no vision or identity in how the team has been constructed - just a variety of parts that are supposedly "skilled" individually. The goaltending has been a disaster for two years and it has not been addressed in any way shape or form - much like the D. The coaching is a disaster - some of us identified this several seasons ago already but our GM doesn't seem to recognize the problem even now when it's apparent to 95% of people casually observing. There's been no accountability for the shit product on the ice at any level, from the players all the way up to the GM. There has been quite objectively almost no consistent positive progression on the ice from year 1 to now year 5.

This not about comparing this regime to the old one. It's been a half a decade. The time for comparisons are over. This GM needs to be evaluated on the merits of his own work, and the product we are witness to in the rink under his watch. It has not been impressive, and I don't really know how anyone can argue that.

But the real zinger is...this is the first time in 25 years that I'm actually embarrassed to be a Devils fan. As bad as it was in 2015, I never felt that.

 

[guitarguyvic]

I do think Shero is holding onto Hynes because Hall like him.

If this is what's happening, Ray should be fired yesterday.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

It's hard to argue we were better off in 2015, but it's also hard to argue we are in a better place now. It's also hard to argue that Ray has done more good than bad. That's an argument that requires no comparison to the previous regime.

So in 2015 our prospect pool was devoid of top end talent. We were not in a good place. I get that.
Five years later, what do we have? Our prospect pool is modestly better, mostly because we tanked/lucked our way to two lottery ball wins. We don't have multiple blue chip prospects knocking on the door. On D particularly we have little in the way of talent that will be ready anytime soon, because the drafting was incredibly forward focused. Why was obtaining D talent not at all prioritized for so long? Several shrewd trades were made but they haven't resulted in on ice success...because there appears to have been no vision or identity in how the team has been constructed - just a variety of parts that are supposedly "skilled" individually. The goaltending has been a disaster for two years and it has not been addressed in any way shape or form - much like the D. The coaching is a disaster - some of us identified this several seasons ago already but our GM doesn't seem to recognize the problem even now when it's apparent to 95% of people casually observing. There's been no accountability for the **** product on the ice at any level, from the players all the way up to the GM. There has been quite objectively almost no consistent positive progression on the ice from year 1 to now year 5.

This not about comparing this regime to the old one. It's been a half a decade. The time for comparisons are over. This GM needs to be evaluated on the merits of his own work, and the product we are witness to in the rink under his watch. It has not been impressive, and I don't really know how anyone can argue that.

yeah, youre very off base with this that I don't even know what to say.

Take the 2015 draft out of it. Lou and Conte ran that draft....Shero (and Castron) did not. So you should start your draft comparisons from 2016 onward. As someone else mentioned, we don't really have many players (if any) that are in their actual prime. Most are either leaving it/past it or just entering it.

Hughes and Hischier are blue-chip players. Ty Smith is a very good prospect. Jesper Boqvist is a very good prospect. Reilly Walsh is a very good prospect. Thats just from 4 drafts. I'm not sure how many "blue-chip" prospects you think some of these other teams have, exactly....? Yes, you can say that we "lucked" into the draft lottery wins, but if we had picked 3rd or 4th in 2017 maybe we would have taken Pettersson (also a blue-chip players), so I don't really buy that argument.

Shero stole Palmieri. He stole Hall. He stole Johansson (who didn't work out as we hoped, but still). He made a nice trade for Vatanen. He signed Butcher. He made a nice trade for Subban. He made a nice trade for Gusev.

I totally agree that if he continues to keep Hynes around for this year (and beyond), thats on him. But lets not act like the organization player-wise and prospect-wise is comparable to 2015 because thats an insane statement.

 

[Call Me Al]

it's pretty easy to argue that having one of the best prospects of the past decade on our team to build around puts us in a better position than in 2015 and it's not even worth belaboring any other points beyond that

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

as @Triumph mentioned, the players from the ~2012 to ~2015 drafts should be the prime core of this team right now. From those drafts we have a 2nd pairing DMan in Damon Severson, a 4th line winger in Miles Wood, a middle 6 forward in Pavel Zacha, and a maybe starter in Mackenzie Blackwood. Thats it. That isn't good enough.

And this isn't meant to be a revisionist history thread. But thats just the reality of it.

 

[Andre Palot]

I think Shero is waiting for a more suitable replacement to be fired and become available and that's the only real reason we haven't seen progress on that front.

I don't think Shero is a bad GM at all. We've gotten maximum value through trades under him, I think he tries to make this team competitive, which is something I can't really about Lou's twilight years after the cup run.

Right now, I have no reason to say we should sack Shero.

 

[Call Me Al]

he's done a very good job of acquiring assets, but aside from one mvp season from hall, none of those assets have been maximized on the ice. would just love to see a coach that can get the most out of the roster. our young players shouldn't be on track for their worst seasons yet (zacha excluded)

 

[JK3]

Wait I thought this was another fire Hynes thread, didn't realize it's a Shero one lol. He's not getting fired, this is the first season where we were expected to start moving forward towards a bubble team. I think the overhyping of the offseason moves got everyone worked up but this team is super young and has a ways to go.

The only thing I'm going to give Shero shit for is keeping Hynes around and maybe the Cory situation. Ultimately it's up to the owners and for sure it's been super frustrating but it's going to take a few more years like this to get rid of Shero.

 

[The Devil In I]

The full impact of the 4 drafts under Shero/Castron won't really be felt until like... 2022-23. That isn't to say he shouldn't face criticism until then, but the main criteria shouldn't be the standings just yet. He's bringing in value/talent via (seemingly) good drafting and smart trades. An organization needs a good level of value within its roster/farm team before it can look to make moves to finalize a competing team.

That said, if Shero had Lous ability to hire and fire coaches (Maclean aside) we'd prob be in a better spot right about now.

 

[Fixxer]

If he lets Hall leave for nothing he should be fired on the spot

The Islanders are doing failry well now. lol
But, yeah, I get the plan. Devils need bodies to move forward if they part ways with Hall.

 

[Bleedred]

I do think Shero is holding onto Hynes because Hall like him.

Maybe LAST year and with the extension, but he shouldn't be anymore.

What if we fire Hynes and we get better? Is that gonna make Hall wanna stay any less than if Hynes stayed put and we sucked?

 

[The 29th Pick]

To sum it up, people who think that you could turn a team that was worse than expansion team in 2015 into a legit contender in 4 years are delusional. Lou left this team in an absolutely awful state and is #1 reason why we are still in the rebuild. Refusing to rebuild after Kovalchuk left was a mistake and compared to late Lou, Shero is doing a good job imo.

We're dead last in the conference, this team hasn't improved, forget about being contenders.

 

[MadDevil]

I do think Shero is holding onto Hynes because Hall like him.

I'm sure Hall would also like to make the playoffs again. So far Hynes has one playoff appearance in 4 seasons (5 if you include this season) as a head coach. Wanting to win and loving a coach who makes the playoffs 20-25% of the time at the same time seems a bit strange to me.

 

[hidek91]

We're dead last in the conference, this team hasn't improved, forget about being contenders.

We are dead last because of bad puck luck, bad goaltending and below average skaters, none of which can be blamed on Shero given what roster he has inherited in 2015 and the fact that after last season it wasn't unreasonable to have some trust in Schneider and Blackwood. In order to bring another goalie, he'd either have to buyout Cory or send promising prospect with good sv% to AHL.

If you look on the roster on paper, the overall state of the team (both in terms of present and future) is much better than it was in 2015.

 

[The 29th Pick]

We are dead last because of bad puck luck, bad goaltending and below average skaters, none of which can be blamed on Shero given what roster he has inherited in 2015 and the fact that after last season it wasn't unreasonable to have some trust in Schneider and Blackwood. In order to bring another goalie, he'd either have to buyout Cory or send promising prospect with good sv% to AHL.

If you look on the roster on paper, the overall state of the team (both in terms of present and future) is much better than it was in 2015.

Who's job is it to construct the roster? Dano's? and forget about puck-luck, every season we have bad luck? A good or better roster on paper means squat, the only thing that matters is wins/losses, and we're not improving there. I know he (Shero) inherited a depleted roster and farm, but improvements must be made in the time he's been here, improvements in the teams performance, it's just not happening, how long do you want to wait? 6,7,8 years, before we're a playoff team?

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

I just think it was a monumental task given what he was left to work with. The Hall trade was an absolute coup. The Palmieri and Vatanen trades were great as well. Johansson deal was solid even though it didn’t work out. Subban was a worthy gamble, I thought Goose was too at the time but in hindsight is not what we needed. He has not bogged us down with any stupid long term contracts. He’s gotten solid returns at the deadline for the pieces we’ve sold off. He has restocked the prospect pool decently but I’m not as high on his drafting as others probably are (really didn’t like this last class although it’s obviously way too early to tell)

That being said, the excuse of what he inherited wears off at some point and I think that time is just about here

I cannot agree with that. We DESPERATELY need wings that can finish. Obviously Goose needs to improve other parts of his game but their have been games our top 2 LW's are Hall and Zacha. They are not finishers. The other thing Goose can do is score a shootout goal. We certainly do need players that can do that.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

The fact that you can square these two statements is staggering.

The Devils have Miles Wood and Cory Schneider from the 2013 draft. Schneider is bad now and has been below-average for the last 3 years. Miles Wood is a 3rd/4th line forward. Overall it is probably a net negative for the Devils to have these two players. Santini was also a net negative.

The Devils have John Hayden from the 2014 draft. Josh Jacobs is in the minors but he passed through waivers and is almost certainly just a body at the NHL level. Hayden is too. That's all the Devils have for a season where they finished 10th worst, and we're only 5 years out from that draft. Players from that draft are in their prime. It was not a good draft, to be fair - a lot of teams did poorly. The Devils have nothing from it.

And that's part of the problem with this team - there's almost nobody in their prime. Everyone is entering it or exiting it. That's because it's hardest to get players in their primes from other teams.

As for the prospect pool, again, by disqualifying the lottery picks as successful, you've taken out half of the first round picks made by the Devils over this time. It's hard to beat the lower rounds - teams rarely find stars there, and nobody does it consistently. But there's a lot of potential successes down there, and for them to become stars it would likely happen at the NHL level.

1,000 likes for this comment. I cannot believe posters here do not understand this.

 

[Billdo]

1,000 likes for this comment. I cannot believe posters here do not understand this.

Nah, people here think we can trade guys from our team who are under performing or just plain old suck for guys in their prime on other teams. We can do that, no?

 

[MadDevil]

Nah, people here think we can trade guys from our team who are under performing or just plain old suck for guys in their prime on other teams. We can do that, no?

I'm waiting for the eventual "That's all we got for Hall?!" reaction from the people that are slagging him on the way out.

 

[Billdo]

I'm waiting for the eventual "That's all we got for Hall?!" reaction from the people that are slagging him on the way out.

Same. Personally I think the "we should've traded him before the season started, this team was never going to be that good and his value would've been higher" will start up quickly too.

 

[Oneiro]

The biggest problem is that more experience, via veteran or games played, hasn't translated into more wins.

Over three seasons, you want to see young players' judgment get better. That's the sort of thing that can, to a degree, mitigate injuries or even sub-par goaltending. But NHL "literacy" (or whatever you want to call it) hasn't improved. And all the key vets are now declining.

 

[guitarguyvic]

yeah, youre very off base with this that I don't even know what to say.

Take the 2015 draft out of it. Lou and Conte ran that draft....Shero (and Castron) did not. So you should start your draft comparisons from 2016 onward. As someone else mentioned, we don't really have many players (if any) that are in their actual prime. Most are either leaving it/past it or just entering it.

Hughes and Hischier are blue-chip players. Ty Smith is a very good prospect. Jesper Boqvist is a very good prospect. Reilly Walsh is a very good prospect. Thats just from 4 drafts. I'm not sure how many "blue-chip" prospects you think some of these other teams have, exactly....? Yes, you can say that we "lucked" into the draft lottery wins, but if we had picked 3rd or 4th in 2017 maybe we would have taken Pettersson (also a blue-chip players), so I don't really buy that argument.

This works both ways. You can't on the one hand say Shero has accomplished something with the drafting and then on the other hand say it's too early to judge. What you're pointing out is that he's drafted some players that appear to have potential. Which I have acknowledged is an improvement from five years ago. But it's not the gigantic accomplishment that you and many others her tout it to be...for the reason I just stated. We won't know for sure that these drafts were a success for some time. As for the two "blue chip" prospects...like you said, any of the players chosen at the top of that class would have been blue chippers...we tanked our way to that spot, and then got lucky with the lottery ball to boot. The only "skill" you need to draft a good player in that spot is to lose a lot of games. I'll concede the Devils have been very good in that department for Ray's entire tenure so far!

Shero stole Palmieri. He stole Hall. He stole Johansson (who didn't work out as we hoped, but still). He made a nice trade for Vatanen. He signed Butcher. He made a nice trade for Subban. He made a nice trade for Gusev.

Again, how can this be touted as some great accomplishment when the acquisition of these players has not resulted in a better product on the ice? You have to look big picture, not at individual trades. These are meaningless if the construction of the team makes no sense and/or the GM fails to address specific roster needs and as a result the team continues to lose. Which is basically exactly what has happened. I don't care that he "stole" Palmieri...that steal hasn't resulted in more wins so why exactly does Shero get a pat on the back? This way of looking at things is legitimately perplexing to me.

I totally agree that if he continues to keep Hynes around for this year (and beyond), thats on him. But lets not act like the organization player-wise and prospect-wise is comparable to 2015 because thats an insane statement.

I literally said in my post that this is not about comparing, it's about judging Shero on his own merit. But you do what you gotta do to drive the narrative.

 

[BenedictGomez]

I'm waiting for the eventual "That's all we got for Hall?!" reaction from the people that are slagging him on the way out.

I'm thinking the opposite.

I think judging by people's posts, most here will be shocked by how much Taylor Hall fetches, and those people will think Shero TOTALLY REDEEMED HIMSELF!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MadDevil]

Shero doesn't really need to "redeem" himself when it comes to Hall given what he gave up to get him.

 

[Triumph]

Again, how can this be touted as some great accomplishment when the acquisition of these players has not resulted in a better product on the ice? You have to look big picture, not at individual trades. These are meaningless if the construction of the team makes no sense and/or the GM fails to address specific roster needs and as a result the team continues to lose. Which is basically exactly what has happened. I don't care that he "stole" Palmieri...that steal hasn't resulted in more wins so why exactly does Shero get a pat on the back? This way of looking at things is legitimately perplexing to me.

Basic stuff. Very basic stuff. In 2015, the Devils' goalies save percentage was .922. Even still, their goal differential was -43. This season, Devils' goalies have a save percentage of .887, and that counts tonight's game. If the 2015 Devils' goalies had a collective save percentage of .887, they would have given up 75 more goals and had a goal differential of -118. The 2015 Buffalo Sabres, tanking champions of the world, only managed a -113 goal differential, and the awful Arizona Coyotes were only -104.

So there are clearly other things on the team that need fixing, but it's a whack a mole game trying to rebuild a franchise like this - once one area seems to have been helped out, another needs fixing. So yes, finding Palmieri, a player who has been a top line winger for the 4+ seasons he's been here, is an accomplishment.