How long before Shero feels the pressure? Fire Shero?

[My3Sons]

That’s not what is being debated. This is the difference between stinking with acquisitions who have not contributed to winning + will soon be past their primes versus stinking while still keeping all of our picks.

I edited my post when I saw which one I had responded to. Someone else seems to be making the point I responded to.

 

[Triumph]

Just to clarify here - I'm arguing against the notion that "no progress has been made". I think there is valid reasons for some criticism, but to say he hasn't made any progress just isn't true.

Bro, have you seen our record and looked at literally nothing at all about the organization otherwise? Check out the record and ignore any posts made that contradict this. The record, bro.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Someone help me understand what was accomplished by acquiring players who have have not in any way shape or form improved the on ice product and will now be past their prime? What was gained? I seriously want to understand this argument.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Bro, have you seen our record and looked at literally nothing at all about the organization otherwise? Check out the record and ignore any posts made that contradict this. The record, bro.

Oh I’ve looked at plenty about the organization other than wind and losses.

more than just the draft picks and trades in a vacuum.

 

[Oneiro]

Well let's ask you. What was the alternative option to not acquiring those players?

 

[NjDevsRR]

Someone help me understand what was accomplished by acquiring players who have have not in any way shape or form improved the on ice product and will now be past their prime? What was gained? I seriously want to understand this argument.

Simmonds is second on the team in shots and 4th best forward in terms of points and PK is third in shots and has been our second/third best dman behind Vatanen. This team would be even worse without those two but whatever man.....

If Simmonds continues his good play we can trade him at the deadline and are able to retain salary so at the end of the day he will GAIN us picks since he was just a signing. PK will be coveted as well in two years if we don’t need him so we can recoup assets there. So your narrative is ridiculous. The ONLY question mark is the Gusev trade and he still has a year to figure it out. But that was a good gamble regardless due to his top end offensive talent when he is in scoring position.

 

[Triumph]

Someone help me understand what was accomplished by acquiring players who have have not in any way shape or form improved the on ice product and will now be past their prime? What was gained? I seriously want to understand this argument.

Even if the Devils have to trade Hall, they are going to get more for him than they could've gotten for Adam Larsson. Even if the Devils have to trade Subban, they will likely get more for him than what they traded for him. If the Devils traded Palmieri this year, which they likely won't, they will end up with a better return than a 2nd and 3rd round pick.

They ended up almost breaking even on Marcus Johansson and that's a player who suffered several injuries and underperformed as a Devil.

Obviously they will get almost nothing out of Mirco Mueller if they deal him and Gusev is untradeable. So be it.

Just ignore that the goaltending is dogshit.

 

[Triumph]

Oh I’ve looked at plenty about the organization other than wind and losses.

more than just the draft picks and trades in a vacuum.

Sure you have. That's why every time I break down where the organization was in 2015 and the assets they have left over from the Lou era, you just ignore it.

 

[NJDevs26]

That’s not what is being debated. This is the difference between stinking with acquisitions who have not contributed to winning + will soon be past their primes versus stinking while still keeping all of our picks.

What they gave up for Hall, Palms, Subban, etc isn't the issue. They'll be able to get back all of what they gave up for them if they have to auction them off for the most part. At least a couple of them they'll get back more than what they gave up.

The issue is not doing enough to surround those players with better talent/coaching and not making aggressive moves soon enough. And having too many of the same type of player (small pushovers) on the roster.

 

[My3Sons]

Someone help me understand what was accomplished by acquiring players who have have not in any way shape or form improved the on ice product and will now be past their prime? What was gained? I seriously want to understand this argument.

First of all they made the playoffs in 2018 so you can’t say those players didn’t improve the team. They didn’t add anyone before last season so I’m not sure what players play into your narrative for that season. I guess you can say that Simmonds Subban and Gusev haven’t made a difference but Subban has two more years to make a difference and if Simonds returns a draft pick at the deadline that is more than the team invested in him in terms of futures. Gusev has the rest of this season to work on his NHL game and maybe next year he will make a difference. You can always spin anything negatively but to suggest something is ever all bad or all good is to essentially argue that correlation equals causation which is not true.

 

[Oneiro]

They attempted to open the window earlier and it didn't work out. Doesn't mean the future is f***ed, though.

Would we be better if we grabbed O'Reilly or Stone instead of Hall? A combo of Edmundson and Barrie, instead of Subban? Shit, maybe? Because that's what it seems like some fans want to hear when it comes to obsessing over the past. That we should've gotten more size, grit, two-way acumen, instead of tripling down on skill. And I find that to be a much more risk-laden path than the one we went down.

 

[MadDevil]

That’s not what is being debated. This is the difference between stinking with acquisitions who have not contributed to winning + will soon be past their primes versus stinking while still keeping all of our picks.

If we did the latter you'd be in here blasting Shero for not wanting to win or something else since you've pretty much been against him since day one.

 

[MartyOwns]

riveting stuff here, fellas

 

[guitarguyvic]

Absolutely nutty. Even if you get back the exact same picks you have up in those trades, those picks are less value because now you’ve wasted several more years instead of using those picks to draft players that would soon be ready to be in the lineup.

The whole point here is that these trades are being touted as a success in and of themselves with zero regard for how those acquisitions actually fit into the big picture goal which is to build a team that can win, now or in the near future. We don’t have a team that is winning in the present, and the jury is still out on the future. I’m not sure how anyone can grade Ray anything better than an “incomplete”...and that’s ignoring what we are witnessing with his choice/retention of this coaching staff, the disinterest in defense from both a personnel and philosophical standpoint, not having a pulse on the goaltending situation and failing to address it, not clearly articulating a vision and identity, so on and so on.

 

[Triumph]

Absolutely nutty. Even if you get back the exact same picks you have up in those trades, those picks are less value because now you’ve wasted several more years instead of using those picks to draft players that would soon be ready to be in the lineup.

The whole point here is that these trades are being touted as a success in and of themselves with zero regard for how those acquisitions actually fit into the big picture goal which is to build a team that can win, now or in the near future. We don’t have a team that is winning in the present, and the jury is still out on the future. I’m not sure how anyone can grade Ray anything better than an “incomplete”...and that’s ignoring what we are witnessing with his choice/retention of this coaching staff, the disinterest in defense from both a personnel and philosophical standpoint, not having a pulse on the goaltending situation and failing to address it, not clearly articulating a vision and identity, so on and so on.

This is a very simple question - what should Shero have done to address the goaltending situation this summer? What do you think he should have done?

 

[guitarguyvic]

I’m not an NHL GM I don’t have any idea what’s going on behind the scenes. Should he not have his finger on the pulse of this team? Should be not have had a plan B in case Cory didn’t work out after already having been a shell of himself for more than a year previously? Perhaps he should have used some of the assets he gave up in other trades on acquiring a plan B Goalie option.

You guys like to pretend that we as fans should have all the solutions figured out before we are justified in lobbing criticisms. Thats a fallacy. Most of us are not any more qualified than the other to judge (negatively or positively) the performance of managers or players.

however, when you start judging with no regard for context, that’s where a judgement may be flawed. If you want to argue I’m not properly putting things in context that’s fine, let’s discuss that. But don’t come here trying to push the notion that I can’t be justified In my opinions just because I don’t have all the answers as a fan who has zero access or influence. We are all in the same boat in that regard.

 

[My3Sons]

I’m not an NHL GM I don’t have any idea what’s going on behind the scenes. Should he not have his finger on the pulse of this team? Should be not have had a plan B in case Cory didn’t work out after already having been a shell of himself for more than a year previously? Perhaps he should have used some of the assets he gave up in other trades on acquiring a plan B Goalie option.

You guys like to pretend that we as fans should have all the solutions figured out before we are justified in lobbing criticisms. Thats a fallacy. Most of us are not any more qualified than the other to judge (negatively or positively) the performance of managers or players.

however, when you start judging with no regard for context, that’s where a judgement may be flawed. If you want to argue I’m not properly putting things in context that’s fine, let’s discuss that. But don’t come here trying to push the notion that I can’t be justified In my opinions just because I don’t have all the answers as a fan who has zero access or influence. We are all in the same boat in that regard.

I believe Ben Lovejoy is the key to everything. Not just in hockey but in life also. Prove me wrong.

You can’t it’s just an opinion. So is your position. You seem to be arguing as if it is some sort of fact based thing but it isn’t. Just accept that for now you are in a distinct minority position.

 

[Triumph]

I’m not an NHL GM I don’t have any idea what’s going on behind the scenes. Should he not have his finger on the pulse of this team? Should be not have had a plan B in case Cory didn’t work out after already having been a shell of himself for more than a year previously? Perhaps he should have used some of the assets he gave up in other trades on acquiring a plan B Goalie option.

But that's exactly the point - a team has finite resources. Where should they be allocated? A team that got what turned out to be okay goaltending paying assets for what would almost certainly be more okay goaltending? Just in case something goes wrong again? That sounds like a potential waste of resources.

You guys like to pretend that we as fans should have all the solutions figured out before we are justified in lobbing criticisms. Thats a fallacy. Most of us are not any more qualified than the other to judge (negatively or positively) the performance of managers or players.

I don't like to pretend that - I act that way. I don't think you should have the solution, per se, but offer alternatives to what happened, instead of just stomping your feet about the team not winning. Understand the history of the franchise and how it affects the present. Understand how players of certain ages perform and what can be expected of them. Not just offer blanket assertions like 'it's up to the GM to start winning' or whatever. I mean, yes, it is, but realize how that's potentially going to be accomplished.

however, when you start judging with no regard for context, that’s where a judgement may be flawed. If you want to argue I’m not properly putting things in context that’s fine, let’s discuss that. But don’t come here trying to push the notion that I can’t be justified In my opinions just because I don’t have all the answers as a fan who has zero access or influence. We are all in the same boat in that regard.

That's not what I'm asking. Even if you had any access, that's not even going to be relevant. You can be justified in some opinions but again, any time I've broken down where the franchise is at asset-wise, you walk away from the discussion. You seem to not realize where this team was and where it is now, but probably more importantly, where other teams are - that other teams exist and are competing with the Devils and that almost all of them haven't been where the Devils were in 2015.

 

[My3Sons]

For those decrying the selection of Nico watch the replay of the first EDM goal against DAL today. Heiskanen softly tries to clear along the boards and it doesn’t get out and then he is brushed off by the EDM forward on his way to the net. Heiskanen is soft. Very smart very skilled but soft. I don’t see his soft play as moving the needle right now compared to Nico.

 

[NJDevs26]

It's not that Shero couldn't have used resources on another goalie, it's that it would have led to them keeping Blackwood in the AHL or eating most of the $18 milion left on Cory's contract. They had to keep Cory on the roster through this year, they had no choice - they weren't going to buy him out and have a six-year dead cap hit. Couldn't trade him obviously, so that's one goalie spot. Blackwood clearly earned the other with his 2018-19 season in both the AHL and NHL.

 

[My3Sons]

It's not that Shero couldn't have used resources on another goalie, it's that it would have led to them keeping Blackwood in the AHL or eating most of the $18 milion left on Cory's contract. They had to keep Cory on the roster through this year, they had no choice - they weren't going to buy him out and have a six-year dead cap hit. Couldn't trade him obviously, so that's one goalie spot. Blackwood clearly earned the other with his 2018-19 season in both the AHL and NHL.

why couldn’t they send Cory to Bing? No one is grabbing him off waivers? Not a cap move but it opens spot for a second goalie

 

[The Devil In I]

It's kind of ironic that probably the most valuable piece left to Shero when he took over, a 29 year old Schneider, is now such a large part of the reason why this team is struggling. Forget the idea of him being like a .925 goalie still, if he was even capable of like .905-.91 right now we'd be in much better shape.

 

[NjDevsRR]

These kind of posters are the same ones who would complain if the GM did nothing. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t mentality.

 

[guitarguyvic]

But that's exactly the point - a team has finite resources. Where should they be allocated? A team that got what turned out to be okay goaltending paying assets for what would almost certainly be more okay goaltending? Just in case something goes wrong again? That sounds like a potential waste of resources.



I don't like to pretend that - I act that way. I don't think you should have the solution, per se, but offer alternatives to what happened, instead of just stomping your feet about the team not winning. Understand the history of the franchise and how it affects the present. Understand how players of certain ages perform and what can be expected of them. Not just offer blanket assertions like 'it's up to the GM to start winning' or whatever. I mean, yes, it is, but realize how that's potentially going to be accomplished.



That's not what I'm asking. Even if you had any access, that's not even going to be relevant. You can be justified in some opinions but again, any time I've broken down where the franchise is at asset-wise, you walk away from the discussion. You seem to not realize where this team was and where it is now, but probably more importantly, where other teams are - that other teams exist and are competing with the Devils and that almost all of them haven't been where the Devils were in 2015.

When have I ever walked away from the discussion? I’m well aware of where we were in 2015. Generally I haven’t disputed that the state of the franchise made this a challenging a job, nor am I calling for Ray to be fired right this second. What I am doing, is pushing back against the notion that Ray has done well overall. He has done some good things in some specific in-a-vacuum areas, and in many of other areas he has not done a good job at all. Overall, so far I don’t see a clear case for the former outweighing the latter. That can still change but at some point one has to see real tangible results, not just potential and hypotheticals.

 

[tr83]

It's not that Shero couldn't have used resources on another goalie, it's that it would have led to them keeping Blackwood in the AHL or eating most of the $18 milion left on Cory's contract. They had to keep Cory on the roster through this year, they had no choice - they weren't going to buy him out and have a six-year dead cap hit. Couldn't trade him obviously, so that's one goalie spot. Blackwood clearly earned the other with his 2018-19 season in both the AHL and NHL.

I still would like to see Cory play under a structure that shuts down cross ice passes and with defensemen who can clear the puck. The former requiring a new coaching staff