How do you fix the Wings?

[minimal]

I won’t say who, but I asked what the biggest issue was this year. How did the team literally collapse during that long losing streak towards the end of the year. The simple and quick answer was poor leadership.

“Leadership was a mess. Total joke. Team was divided and the leadership couldn’t regain control”

Apparently a lot of guys checked out when the issue started to occur.

Can't say I'm surprised if this is the case, the team felt totally headless without Larkin. Not just in terms of playing ability, but in giving a shit as well. Generally glad Kane was on the team for the talent and excitement--plus it's been a long time since we've been able to feel like the belle of the ball in terms of big name players choosing Detroit. But in light of how the season played out and the end of the year interviews went, can't help but feel like the team was being used as a vehicle for Kane and I'm not sure I like that.

Honestly you'd hope that this kind of issue is solved internally through the younger players taking the reins. Raymond stepping into the spotlight--and now playing with an "A" for Sweden? Very positive going forward. I've got all the time in the world for Seider, but I'm also expecting big things from him next year and won't shy away from criticism if he doesn't show up.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I'm going to go back on something brought up in another thread about the Wings focus on character in the guys they draft. If you have guys who grade out comparably, the guy with the better intangibles is the right choice, imo. Even if you view that guy as slightly less of a ceiling guy. those intangibles are worth a lot.

You get guys who work and grind and put in the time...and are skilled? You start putting together a pretty special team, imo. They become a very difficult group to beat, even if they aren't as purely skilled as the guys lining up across from them.

I grew up with a coach that impressed on us that it feels better to win ugly than to lose pretty. Every successful team since 1993 has embraced that type of mantra.

And there are a couple things to consider here; just about everyone that makes it to the NHL has a lot of skill. Some more than others? Most definitely. But flash does not equal skill.

Another thing that drives me crazy is when someone says that a player is "only a third liner" or "only second liner" when the line between a good 3rd liner and average 2nd liner is razor thin, usually determined by icetime. Same can be said of a good second liner and an average 1st liner. This is when their intangibles become the deciding factor for me. Tyler Bertuzzi is a great example of this; scored like a low to mid tier 1st liner in Detroit one season. But the intangibles, the poor defense, those kinds of things make me prefer a guy that's a 50-60 point scorer that plays a solid team game over a guy that's a 60-70 point guy that doesn't.

EDIT:
Just one example of how usage and minutes play impact scoring; Michael Rasmussen's points/60 was 1.7 with 15:11 ATOI. For the sake of argument let's say he was playing 18 minutes a night. 1476 minutes over an 82 game season, which is about 2nd line numbers with PK usage. That 1.7 P/60 isn't 33 points anymore. It's 42 points a season if no increase in powerplay TOI. That's an increase of 6 points over his 2024 pace. Not great return on investment at face value.
Factor in a higher scoring rate if 2 of the 3 extra minutes per season was on the powerplay and we can estimate 8-12 more points, which is about average for a 2nd line player. So you're looking at a high 40s/low 50s point scorer. That's about the 4th to 7th highest scorer on any of the playoff teams in the east. Or, as we say here, "realgud".

 

[Gniwder]

I grew up with a coach that impressed on us that it feels better to win ugly than to lose pretty. Every successful team since 1993 has embraced that type of mantra.

And there are a couple things to consider here; just about everyone that makes it to the NHL has a lot of skill. Some more than others? Most definitely. But flash does not equal skill.

Another thing that drives me crazy is when someone says that a player is "only a third liner" or "only second liner" when the line between a good 3rd liner and average 2nd liner is razor thin, usually determined by icetime. Same can be said of a good second liner and an average 1st liner. This is when their intangibles become the deciding factor for me. Tyler Bertuzzi is a great example of this; scored like a low to mid tier 1st liner in Detroit one season. But the intangibles, the poor defense, those kinds of things make me prefer a guy that's a 50-60 point scorer that plays a solid team game over a guy that's a 60-70 point guy that doesn't.

EDIT:
Just one example of how usage and minutes play impact scoring; Michael Rasmussen's points/60 was 1.7 with 15:11 ATOI. For the sake of argument let's say he was playing 18 minutes a night. 1476 minutes over an 82 game season, which is about 2nd line numbers with PK usage. That 1.7 P/60 isn't 33 points anymore. It's 42 points a season if no increase in powerplay TOI. That's an increase of 6 points over his 2024 pace. Not great return on investment at face value.
Factor in a higher scoring rate if 2 of the 3 extra minutes per season was on the powerplay and we can estimate 8-12 more points, which is about average for a 2nd line player. So you're looking at a high 40s/low 50s point scorer. That's about the 4th to 7th highest scorer on any of the playoff teams in the east. Or, as we say here, "realgud".

The margin is usually PP time, but the difference between a player like Bert and a player like Raz is that Raz is useless on the PP. Same with Copp vs Compher. Half the difference in pts between the 2 was PP usage, but do you really want Copp on the PP?!?!

 

[Snuggs]

Think signing another goalie and Edvinsson up a full season will improve the defense/goals against.

I'm not sure how Wings are going to replace the offense of Kane/Sprong/Gostisbehere specially.

Signing a RHD isn't going to turn them into the Islanders defensively either.

 

[Gniwder]

Think signing another goalie

Which backup goalie are we going after this summer?

2024 NHL Free Agents - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

2024 NHL free agent players who are available to be signed during NHL free agency

www.capfriendly.com

 

[Snuggs]

Not breaking the bank, cause they're basically all back-ups but Kaapo Kahkonen has upside potential imo like Alex Lyon did last year.

Everyone's a backup, 1B option. Insurance if Husso's injury lingers and Cossa isn't ready. Need someone to play 50/50 with Lyon imo, and the GAA will go down for the team.

Healthy Husso might be a solution, but I don't like lower back injuries. They rarely "get better". He/Red Wings got most a summer to figure things out though.

 

[13to40]

It's pretty much speculation, but I can see that. The Wings record was worse with Kane in the lineup than without, and that's a fact. Kane never struck me as a leader in Chicago even when he was clearly their best player. That was always Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa, guys like Bolland and Byfuglien.

Also guys like Petry, Copp, Sprong, Compher and Fabbri seem like decent guys but none are the type to light a fire under their teammates asses. I think we'll see that more from our prospects like Mazur, Kasper, Edvinsson. And it's part of the reason I want Perron back.

I don’t want to say too much about it since it’s easy to find out which player I spoke with, but if I had to guess hypothetically speaking of course…… I would point my finger at #88 coming into the line up that ruffled the feathers of some of the other players.

I agree with Perron seeming to be a good leader. Copp and Compher are just vanilla warm bodies (pros) to fill the roster with. They never do anything great or anything poor. Just boring safe players (not bad option to fill your roster with). Sprong is a special character…. I’m bias about him, but I can agree that he’s definitely not a leader.

After all is said and done, I think the player who’s most at risk next season from not being on the roster is Fabbri. He’s been a good soldier, but he’s become expandable and his price tag is the most expensive of the players who I’d consider to be on the bubble as well.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Hilarious. Where were all these voices when we signed Kane?
He was going to be a leader, a long-term Wing, was going to show the kids the right way to play.
I was pretty much laughed out of or banned from Kane threads when I was saying we don't want him and he's not the guy to bring accountability to our team or impose himself as a positive model for our youngsters. Guy is and always has been a self a centered douche bag. Thank goodness it looks like he won't be back. Of course, if he does come back, y'all gonna fall in love with him again.

 

[jkutswings]

I don’t want to say too much about it since it’s easy to find out which player I spoke with, but if I had to guess hypothetically speaking of course…… I would point my finger at #88 coming into the line up that ruffled the feathers of some of the other players.

I'm not asking for names or specific details. If you really do have a source, that's very cool and I won't ask you to say anything that might compromise that situation.

But in a very general sense, I'm struggling to understand why adding ANY player would ruffle some feathers. It's one thing if a guy is handed ice time when he clearly doesn't deserve it. But there being an issue just because he joined the team? It's not like last year he speared Larkin and slew footed Seider, and then he was on the team.

And even if one or more players didn't want him here for whatever reason...what exactly has anybody on the current roster accomplished to give them the cache to be indignant about somebody joining the team?

I mean, no offense to any of the players, but if they were cars, it almost sounds like one or more Accords turned their nose up at having to race with a rebuilt Ferrari, which seems ridiculous to me. Accomplish something meaningful in the NHL before getting indignant about who else is on the roster.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

Not breaking the bank, cause they're basically all back-ups but Kaapo Kahkonen has upside potential imo like Alex Lyon did last year.

Everyone's a backup, 1B option. Insurance if Husso's injury lingers and Cossa isn't ready. Need someone to play 50/50 with Lyon imo, and the GAA will go down for the team.

Healthy Husso might be a solution, but I don't like lower back injuries. They rarely "get better". He/Red Wings got most a summer to figure things out though.

Vejmelka

 

[Oddbob]

I won’t say who, but I asked what the biggest issue was this year. How did the team literally collapse during that long losing streak towards the end of the year. The simple and quick answer was poor leadership.

“Leadership was a mess. Total joke. Team was divided and the leadership couldn’t regain control”

Apparently a lot of guys checked out when the issue started to occur.

Is this a player. coach or just someone who knows people in the organization?

 

[13to40]

Is this a player. coach or just someone who knows people in the organization

A player

I'm not asking for names or specific details. If you really do have a source, that's very cool and I won't ask you to say anything that might compromise that situation.

But in a very general sense, I'm struggling to understand why adding ANY player would ruffle some feathers. It's one thing if a guy is handed ice time when he clearly doesn't deserve it. But there being an issue just because he joined the team? It's not like last year he speared Larkin and slew footed Seider, and then he was on the team.

And even if one or more players didn't want him here for whatever reason...what exactly has anybody on the current roster accomplished to give them the cache to be indignant about somebody joining the team?

I mean, no offense to any of the players, but if they were cars, it almost sounds like one or more Accords turned their nose up at having to race with a rebuilt Ferrari, which seems ridiculous to me. Accomplish something meaningful in the NHL before getting indignant about who else is on the roster.

I am not disagreeing about the Ferrari vs Honda comment, but it’s always a risk while acquiring any player to see how they will gel with the already pre-existing roster.

I don’t know what’s going to happen moving forward, but at the time I wasn’t ecstatic when he was acquired, thought he would be too slow. #88 proved me wrong and put up a very good stat line and came in clutch in multiple situations for us. Sure at times he floated around and the last game of the season I must have swore every time he was on the ice because of how poor he played, but then who scores the game winner in OT which should have been enough to push the team into the playoffs: #88 did.

All I do know is I think this team needs a few more policing type of players. We need a real 4th line. It’s about time we have another Grind Line.

Albin Grewe was supposed to help reconstruct it via draft. I think this off season unless the team can pull off another highway robbery move in acquiring one of the big dogs for sale in Toronto, then a few hard hitting, high intensity, energy players will do the trick.

Larkin should be netting 30
Raymond 30
D cat 30
Copp, Compher, Ras, Veleno, Perron will all range from 15-20

A few of our D will be chipping in too on the goal scoring… bring in some hard nosed guys (who more often than not are active leaders on the ice)

 

[Ezekial]

Hilarious. Where were all these voices when we signed Kane?
He was going to be a leader, a long-term Wing, was going to show the kids the right way to play.
I was pretty much laughed out of or banned from Kane threads when I was saying we don't want him and he's not the guy to bring accountability to our team or impose himself as a positive model for our youngsters. Guy is and always has been a self a centered douche bag. Thank goodness it looks like he won't be back. Of course, if he does come back, y'all gonna fall in love with him again.

Yea, imagine taking in information, processing it, and changing your opinion. Must be an idiot to do something like that.

 

[NickH8]

A player

I am not disagreeing about the Ferrari vs Honda comment, but it’s always a risk while acquiring any player to see how they will gel with the already pre-existing roster.

I don’t know what’s going to happen moving forward, but at the time I wasn’t ecstatic when he was acquired, thought he would be too slow. #88 proved me wrong and put up a very good stat line and came in clutch in multiple situations for us. Sure at times he floated around and the last game of the season I must have swore every time he was on the ice because of how poor he played, but then who scores the game winner in OT which should have been enough to push the team into the playoffs: #88 did.

All I do know is I think this team needs a few more policing type of players. We need a real 4th line. It’s about time we have another Grind Line.

Albin Grewe was supposed to help reconstruct it via draft. I think this off season unless the team can pull off another highway robbery move in acquiring one of the big dogs for sale in Toronto, then a few hard hitting, high intensity, energy players will do the trick.

Larkin should be netting 30
Raymond 30
D cat 30
Copp, Compher, Ras, Veleno, Perron will all range from 15-20

A few of our D will be chipping in too on the goal scoring… bring in some hard nosed guys (who more often than not are active leaders on the ice)

The key is going to be good defensive hockey from lines 2-4 and scoring in aggregate. DeBrincat Larkin and Raymond as a line can dominate opponents. The other 3 lines are gonna have to play good D and generate scoring by tilting the ice.
That's why I've shifted to focusing on improving goaltending and getting a stabilizing RD. We're not going to replicate the high GF we had this year. I predict we go from 9th to like 15th. But if we can get the GA to around 15th we should make the playoffs.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Go in a time machine and not draft Zadina. Watching the Van Edm series makes me sick...

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Hilarious. Where were all these voices when we signed Kane?
He was going to be a leader, a long-term Wing, was going to show the kids the right way to play.
I was pretty much laughed out of or banned from Kane threads when I was saying we don't want him and he's not the guy to bring accountability to our team or impose himself as a positive model for our youngsters. Guy is and always has been a self a centered douche bag. Thank goodness it looks like he won't be back. Of course, if he does come back, y'all gonna fall in love with him again.

Raymond has talked about how big Kane was for him a few times. Yes he put in the work in the offseason, but Raymond talked a few times about questions on and off the ice that Kane helped him with. So it has already happened…

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Go in a time machine and not draft Zadina. Watching the Van Edm series makes me sick...

I let out an expletive when we picked Zadina. Pierre and Bob were talking Hughes on the broadcast and I was the coach in the Waterboy so excited then….

Making this better, I had the draft on in another side room during a big family event. Most were happy about that pick, I just have rarely seen better passers of the puck than the Hughes boys, it is middle tape every time.

 

[Roomba With a Bauer]

Does anyone remember when me and a few other people really wanted Yzerman to try and get Vincent Trochek, and (as far as we know), Yzerman didn't even try and signed Copp instead to a higher AAV?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

12p in 7 playoff games.

 

[Snuggs]

Does anyone remember when me and a few other people really wanted Yzerman to try and get Vincent Trochek, and (as far as we know), Yzerman didn't even try and signed Copp instead to a higher AAV?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

12p in 7 playoff games.

Definitely was on that band-wagon, but I wasn't mad about Copp. Just wanted Trocheck.

For sure, imo, this was a case where Rangers offered up a nice contract and he took it and I can't blame Trocheck. I'm not sure there was much bidding against.

He's surpassed my expectations of what he'd be though TBH. Great signing.

 

[PullHard]

Does anyone remember when me and a few other people really wanted Yzerman to try and get Vincent Trochek, and (as far as we know), Yzerman didn't even try and signed Copp instead to a higher AAV?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

12p in 7 playoff games.

I have no argument in a Copp vs Trocheck discussion but just pointing out every time someone points to Trocheck’s production that he plays full time with one of the best LWers in the league. I’m sure he would have been productive here but the numbers wouldn’t be the same.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Does anyone remember when me and a few other people really wanted Yzerman to try and get Vincent Trochek, and (as far as we know), Yzerman didn't even try and signed Copp instead to a higher AAV?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

12p in 7 playoff games.

Holy invented scenario.

Does anyone remember when (as far as we know) Yzerman offered Trochek $5.625 million but wouldn't match the 7-year term the Rangers gave him so Trochek turned him down and signed with New York for the same money but longer term and better team??

Or (as far as we know) that Trochek had no interest in signing in Detroit unless it was for 7 years and a dumptruck full of money?

"This was one of just a few teams that we really looked at and thought it was a good fit," Trocheck said. "So coming in, we knew that New York was probably our No. 1 choice."
"Me and my family both are elated to have the opportunity to play in New York," Trochek said Wednesday. "An original six team, playing at Madison Square Garden; as a kid, these are the kinds of things you dream of."

Rangers, Trocheck reach 7-year, $39.3M deal

The Rangers have reached a seven-year deal with ex-Hurricanes center Vincent Trocheck, it was announced. Sources told ESPN that the deal was for an average of $5.625 million per season.

www.espn.com

 

[ricky0034]

Does anyone remember when me and a few other people really wanted Yzerman to try and get Vincent Trochek, and (as far as we know), Yzerman didn't even try and signed Copp instead to a higher AAV?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

12p in 7 playoff games.

the funny thing is the Rangers even traded for Copp at the deadline and he did pretty well there but they still went out and got Trocheck instead when it came time for free agency instead of letting that attachment blind them

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I think Nate Danielson makes the team

That we sign a UFA Dman

And trade for a goalie

Love to somehow add Guentzel as well but dont see that happening

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Definitely was on that band-wagon, but I wasn't mad about Copp. Just wanted Trocheck.

For sure, imo, this was a case where Rangers offered up a nice contract and he took it and I can't blame Trocheck. I'm not sure there was much bidding against.

He's surpassed my expectations of what he'd be though TBH. Great signing.

Playing with Panarin helps.

 

[Ulysses31]

Does anyone remember when me and a few other people really wanted Yzerman to try and get Vincent Trochek, and (as far as we know), Yzerman didn't even try and signed Copp instead to a higher AAV?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

12p in 7 playoff games.

hes an absolute beast when healthy.