How come the Russians are so low ranked in the all time lists?

[wetcoast]

Russia was the top icehockey nation in 60s and 70s. 80s was even. Canada has been the top 1990s, 2000. 2010s is still up to debate.

If you want to shake the hat, 4 players per decade and at least 6 russians in there. Minimum.

You know who Konovalenko (soviet goalie in the worlds best national team for 60s) and Maltsev are for starters?

Russia most certainly wasn't the top ice hockey nation in the 60s and sure they and the Canadians were pretty equal after that internationally.

But of course the Soviet system and training and preparation does help the Soviets partly for some of that success right?

 

[wetcoast]

He has one Hart, two Art Rosses, a Conn Smythe (and another CS-worthy run), a Calder, and one great international performance. That's good enough for a spot where I have him. He was injured or disinterested too often. But #37 is nothing to sneeze at. At least he made my list, unlike the NHL's Top 100.

Sure but Firsov at 36 is really, I mean extremely, suspect and doesn't pass the smell test in any way shape or form.

 

[Sentinel]

Sure but Firsov at 36 is really, I mean extremely, suspect and doesn't pass the smell test in any way shape or form.

Covid-19 affects the sense of smell. Stay safe and watch for other symptoms!

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I


I’d put 6 Europeans in the top 20: Ovechkin, Malkin, Kharlamov, Forsberg, Lidstrom, Jagr

Malkin is borderline though

players I wouldn’t put in the top 20: Messier, Sakic, Kurri, Francis

Malkin > Makarov > Forsberg > Kharlamov

 

[Ben White]

Malkin > Makarov > Forsberg > Kharlamov

haha reverse that and we’re fine

 

[Passchendaele]

Sergei Makarov was better than all those guys.

I think you need to drop the kool-aid. Makarov wasn't better than Jaromir Jagr.

I don't like comparing forwards to d-men, so I'll skip Lidstrom.

My only issue about Ovechkin is that he was really, really good for ~5 years.

Anything Makarov could do, Malkin could do, and better. And he is 6'3" (vs. 5'8").

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think you need to drop the kool-aid. Makarov wasn't better than Jaromir Jagr.

I don't like comparing forwards to d-men, so I'll skip Lidstrom.

My only issue about Ovechkin is that he was really, really good for ~5 years.

Anything Makarov could do, Malkin could do, and better. And he is 6'3" (vs. 5'8").

I've seen them all play.

Kool-Aid free, I'll take Makarov.

Makarov played excellent defense. Malkin does not.

 

[Passchendaele]

I've seen them all play.

Kool-Aid free, I'll take Makarov.

Makarov played excellent defense. Malkin does not.

Let's see how modern names would do under a communist system where they train like madmen all-year long.

This is from Igor Larionov's article on ThePlayersTribune:

At Red Army, you were a hockey player. That was your entire existence. We trained for 11 months straight and lived in simple barracks-style housing. The furniture was like a Motel 6, but after a few months it started to feel like Shawshank prison. There was one telephone for 25 players and you would have to stand in line to wait your turn to call your family or your girlfriend (you had to pick). We would practice on the ice for four hours a day and then lift weights, run, and do off-ice training for another five to six hours. We might watch film for two hours after that. Off days? That’s funny. No off days. You skated every single day. I remember before and after the 1984 Olympics, we were given six “nights off” the entire year. This meant that if the game ended at 9:30 p.m., you could leave the facility and go see your family until practice the next morning.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Let's see how modern names would do under a communist system where they train like madmen all-year long.

This is from Igor Larionov's article on ThePlayersTribune:

I see.

It doesn't count if you played for the Soviets.

 

[Passchendaele]

I see.

It doesn't count if you played for the Soviets.

People like to bring up that Krutov went through a "culture shock" when he made the move to NA.

Well, are we to assume he would have never had the work ethic to make it to the NHL here?

What if NHL players trained like the Soviets did? Wouldn't they be even better in comparison?

 

[Zine]

Russia most certainly wasn't the top ice hockey nation in the 60s and sure they and the Canadians were pretty equal after that internationally.

But of course the Soviet system and training and preparation does help the Soviets partly for some of that success right?

The Soviet system helped in ways, hindered in others.

Some of the unintended consequences:

1. Due to non-stop training the Soviet career trajectory resembled a sprint in contrast to the NHLers marathon. A Soviet was lucky if his body wasn’t completely run-down by the age of 30.

2. Particularly under Tikhonov the best Soviets (as a collective) rarely faced on-ice adversity. CSKA destroyed the Soviet League at a time when no league playoffs existed. It was a snooze-fest. Meanwhile NHLers were experiencing the grind of the SCP.
I think this manifested itself in close Soviet/Canada games whereby Canada was generally able to gain victory more often than not.

 

[Zine]

People like to bring up that Krutov went through a "culture shock" when he made the move to NA.

Well, are we to assume he would have never had the work ethic to make it to the NHL here?

What if NHL players trained like the Soviets did? Wouldn't they be even better in comparison?

Don't confuse off-ice life adjustment with hockey work ethic; especially for players at the tail end of their careers. One affects the other but they are not one and the same.

As such you think a typical NHLer wouldn't have serious problems if put in the same situation? I'd imagine tons of fantastic NHLers wouldn't have lasted 5 seconds in the Soviet Union.

 

[wetcoast]

Covid-19 affects the sense of smell. Stay safe and watch for other symptoms!

Well that's a really compelling argument to Firsov..........well not really at all.

Firsov at 36 all time is a complete non starter plain and simple.

 

[wetcoast]

The Soviet system helped in ways, hindered in others.

Some of the unintended consequences:

1. Due to non-stop training the Soviet career trajectory resembled a sprint in contrast to the NHLers marathon. A Soviet was lucky if his body wasn’t completely run-down by the age of 30.

I see this argument all of the time thrown out like it was actually a proven fact or something.

We all know people who are workout freaks, they don't suddenly change at age 30 do they?

Larinov had probably his best NHL season at age 33 with the San Jose sharks and Makarov had an awesome season for age 35 all things considered.

2. Particularly under Tikhonov the best Soviets (as a collective) rarely faced on-ice adversity. CSKA destroyed the Soviet League at a time when no league playoffs existed. It was a snooze-fest. Meanwhile NHLers were experiencing the grind of the SCP.
I think this manifested itself in close Soviet/Canada games whereby Canada was generally able to gain victory more often than not.

I'm not sure this actually hindered the Soviet players in international play as they often played with the same players year round...perhaps with their transition to the NHL this deserves some merit but it also might just reinforce that the sum was greater than the parts of the "soviet system".

There is literally no way to judge this accurately.

 

[Sentinel]

Well that's a really compelling argument to Firsov..........well not really at all.

Firsov at 36 all time is a complete non starter plain and simple.

A compelling argument against a compelling argument.

 

[wetcoast]

A compelling argument against a compelling argument.

He was 36th on your list and it stands out perhaps you might explain it?

I mean anyone can make any kind of list but it helps to explain it otherwise what purpose does it have?

 

[SaltNPeca]

Why do you include Riga and Voskresensk and the Red Army from 91 when the Soviet Union was almost not existing anymore. The three games between 80 and 86 are what counts. Prime Soviet Union hockey vs the best team in the NHL.

Because those are all the Super Series games bud.

You're on a computer right now. You can look it up instead of cherry picking: Legends of Hockey - Pro Classics: Super Series Summary

But please do tell us more about what "counts" when it comes to mid-season exhibition hockey games.
brb watching Muhammad Ali vs. Antonio Inoki fight to figure out who's the greatest all time fighter

 

[Fatass]

Russians shouldn’t be low on all time best players’ lists.
‘72 team was loaded with great players, like Yakushev, Harlomov, and Tretiak.
Then later players like Fetisov, Datsyuik, Fedorov, Bure and many others were great too. Now OV and Malkin lead another group of fabulous Russian players.
Tretiak has to be top five goalies.
OV is the greatest goal scorer and power forward.
Fedorov and Datsyuik are easily top ten all time 200 foot players.
Vasiliev and Fetisov were also incredibly talented and tough D.
And I’m sure I’m missing lots of great Russian players.

 

[MrNasty]

Systemic Xenophobia

many people grew up listening to Don Cherry and his hatred for Russians and Europeans

 

[Sentinel]

I am curious, what is your entire top 20? Perhaps, entire top 50. Would be fun to see who you ranked above who. Some context would help.

Thank you

I'll do Top 20. It does not agree with many lists here.

1. Wayne Gretzky (C)
2. Gordie Howe (RW)
3. Bobby Orr (D)
4. Mario Lemieux (C)
5. Dominic Hasek (G)
6. Jean Beliveau (C)
7. Phil Esposito (C)
8. Alexander Ovechkin (LW)
9. Bobby Hull (LW)
10. Sergei Makarov (RW)
11. Eddie Shore (D)
12. Doug Harvey (D)
13. Guy Lafleur (RW)
14. Jaromir Jagr (RW)
15. Sydney Crosby (C)
16. Patrick Roy (G)
17. Nicklas Lidstrom (D)
18. Howie Morenz (C)
19. Raymond Bourque (D)
20. Maurice Richard (RW)

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I'll do Top 20. It does not agree with many lists here.

1. Wayne Gretzky (C)
2. Gordie Howe (RW)
3. Bobby Orr (D)
4. Mario Lemieux (C)
5. Dominic Hasek (G)
6. Jean Beliveau (C)
7. Phil Esposito (C)
8. Alexander Ovechkin (LW)
9. Bobby Hull (LW)
10. Sergei Makarov (RW)
11. Eddie Shore (D)
12. Doug Harvey (D)
13. Guy Lafleur (RW)
14. Jaromir Jagr (RW)
15. Sydney Crosby (C)
16. Patrick Roy (G)
17. Nicklas Lidstrom (D)
18. Howie Morenz (C)
19. Raymond Bourque (D)
20. Maurice Richard (RW)

Thank you very much for providing the list.

My Québécois heart is bleeding to see Richard so low and Bourque as the FIFTH defenseman.

I obviously disagree with the Crosby and Ovechkin placement, but I have my biases like you have yours.

I always thought that Gordie Howe was kinda overrated. I have him as a distant fourth to Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. I think Hasek is VERY high. I hate Patrick Roy, but, to me, he is the better player.

Nothing completely crazy, just things I disagree with.

Once again, huge thank you.

 

[RandV]

While it could apply to some I don't think it's really fair to call it "bias" here. For one thing it's already very subjective making these 'best of all time' lists as players play in different era's which had different standards. The general principle to use is you try to rate them 'against their peers'.

So with that said you have to look at what's probably the 800lb gorilla in the room: politics. I wasn't around back then so correct me if I'm wrong but this is the Cold War era and we're talking about the Soviet Union here, not to get into sides but outside of the odd international tourney exactly how visible were either sides players to the general population? Could a kid in Montreal watch Vladislav Tretiak play, or could a kid in Moscow see Ken Dryden? Now grown up today how would these two kids from the 70's reconcile and rank where Tretiak and Dryden belong?

The first generation you really start to see an overlap on is the Makarov/Larianov/Fetisov group, though we saw them in the NHL in the latter half of their career so don't have an impression of their prime. Then you start getting full integration with Fedorov/Bure/Mogilny, but at this point you're getting into the modern hockey era and 'History of Hockey' people get very stingy with their selections.

 

[Sentinel]

Thank you very much for providing the list.

My Québécois heart is bleeding to see Richard so low and Bourque as the FIFTH defenseman.

I obviously disagree with the Crosby and Ovechkin placement, but I have my biases like you have yours.

I always thought that Gordie Howe was kinda overrated. I have him as a distant fourth to Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr. I think Hasek is VERY high. I hate Patrick Roy, but, to me, he is the better player.

Nothing completely crazy, just things I disagree with.

Once again, huge thank you.

Richard is superbly overrated. A forward who never won an Art Ross and only one Hart in a post-war League does not deserve to be in the top ten.

Hasek is very close to Lemieux who spent more time on the bench and in the pressbox than on the ice. Plus, 2 Harts + 6 Vezinas are not that far below 3 Harts + 6 Art Rosses (4 of them on the line with Jagr). Their playoffs are a wash: Hasek does not have a Conn Smythe but his 99 run was better than either of Lemieux's Smythes.

Howe had a couple of seasons of statistical dominance rivaling that of Lemieux, and his 20 straight top 5 point finishes will NEVER be surpassed (his 6 Harts are more than those of Lemieux and Orr COMBINED).

 

[Passchendaele]

Richard is superbly overrated. A forward who never won an Art Ross and only one Hart in a post-war League does not deserve to be in the top ten.

Overrated?

From 1943 to 1957, he only finished lower than 6th in goals once.

Finished 1st five times. 2nd three more times.

Lost a Hart to prime Gordie Howe, which is understandable, as no one ranks him above Howe.

These numbers are very similar to Ovechkin's post 2010.

 

[Sentinel]

Overrated?

From 1943 to 1957, he only finished lower than 6th in goals once.

Finished 1st five times. 2nd three more times.

Lost a Hart to prime Gordie Howe, which is understandable, as no one ranks him above Howe.

These numbers are very similar to Ovechkin's post 2010.

Except Ovechkin actually won an Art Ross, THREE Harts, and lead the (much larger) league in goals NINE times. "Post 2010"? Sure, take out Ovechkin's best three seasons, LMAO.

Richard didn't just lose Hart to prime Howe. He lost Harts to such household names as Buddy O'Connor, Chuck Rayner, and Al Rollins.

The only thing that Richard has on Ovechkin is playoff goalscoring. And the French American legend.