Kharlamov at 5 seems rather high but I guess he is the Russian equivalent of Howie Morenz in that tragic deaths somehow seem to add to their legendary status.
How come the Russians are so low ranked in the all time lists?
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Kharlamov at 5 seems rather high but I guess he is the Russian equivalent of Howie Morenz in that tragic deaths somehow seem to add to their legendary status.
BruinsBtn
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Here's a video of Benoit Pouliot scoring one of the sickest goals you'll ever see. What's your point? You show me a bad turnover in the corner getting passed to a guy wide open in front. Big deal.
Why don't you educate yourself on how much harder it was to succeed in the NHL. Bob Probert had more PIMs in a season than most teams in Makarov's entire league. They were playing ice capades while NHL players were at war every game. Sure, a few Russians could hack it for a few games a year but when Makarov came over he couldn't do it in an 80-game season, just like so many of the other Russians who came over. NHL hockey was 10x harder, 10x more physical, 10x more likely to get hurt. Makarov played on an all-star team team every year in Russia and they dangled and looped. It was like an NHL all-star game.
Here's the bottom line: He came to Calgary and he wasn't anything special, definitely not a top-200 player, not even in the conversation.
Larionov came at 28. What happened? Good player but not a superstar, not even a star.
It's the same thing with prospects around here. People see them do a few toe drags in junior and think they're so skilled. What happens in the NHL? They flop because everyone is fast, everyone plays the body and everyone is skilled.
Everything points to the same conclusion: It was way, way harder to succeed in the NHL.
What's more likely, that in the 1980s, Russian had 3 of the top 20 players ever. Then 1990 rolls around and they go onto produce only one guy (Ovechkin) who is even in the conversation since. Or that they were in the 70s and 80s exactly what they are now.
Educate yourself. Look at the boxscores of the Canada Cup, look at shots. The Russian coach complains about the refereeing? Russia had more powerplays. Yet the shots in game 3 were 46-23 Canada. I mean, they definitely had some great goalies, I'll give you that.
1984 semi it was 41-23 on the shots. Look at the game-winner in that one. The Russian jumps out of the way of a hit, pass to Coffey and it's in the net. They couldn't take a hit in OT in the Canada Cup, you think they were able to grind for 80 games? In the playoffs? Don't bother answering because we know what happened when most of them came over.
Stephen
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You can also find YouTube clips of Wendel Clark going toe to toe vs Gretzky in Game 6 of the Campbell Conference Finals in 1993, scoring a hat trick. But because you have 15 years of Wendel Clark in the NHL, you know they're not equals. You can't build a Top 20 career off of YouTube highlights scattered over a bunch of best on best tournaments over a decade.
Tretyak, Kharlamov, Jakushev, Makarov, Fetisov I this these 5 players belong to top 20 of all time
Khomutov
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It's obvious out of this post, modern people (or Western people overall) don't understand, what a jumping from Soviet to American/Canadian life was like. The best example of all difficulties, that expected them, was Krutov's failed career. He probably was top5 Soviet player ever back to then, but just couldn't find himself in the NHL. Mostly because he just couldn't find himself in NA life.
Going from USSR to Canada back to then was probably like... I can't even find right words to describe it. Absolutely everything was different: language, culture, values in life, ideology, economy... The only things in common were ice (not rink size, though, just ice), water, air, sky, earth, skates, sticks, pucks, helmets - that's, probably, it.
Hockey was absolutely different as well. Makarov was used to a totally different system - Soviet teams, for example, didn't have special teams for PP and PK, they didn't use Cs on the dot, they valued puck possession over traditional South-North Canadian hockey, they didn't dump the puck like almost at all, they shot the puck only when they were more or less sure they had a chance to score and so on and so forth. Btw, check Makarov's shooting percentage in his first few NHL seasons, just for fun.
Makarov had to learn a new life and new hockey at age 31 and he still managed to remain a PPG+ player for 3 seasons till the age 34. It was actually absolutely amazing he managed to do it.
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BruinsBtn
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just lol, take 1 game and call it a day?
Oilers are .667 in the 6 Super Series games (4 W 2 L).
So by your lingo and definition the Oilers wrecked the Soviet teams 4-2 liftime, also winning in '90 & '91 without Wayner.
1980 - Dynamo Moscow beat Edmonton Oilers 4 to 1
1983 - Edmonton Oilers beat USSR 4 to 3
1986 - Red Army beat Edmonton Oilers 6 to 3
1989 - Edmonton Oilers beat Dynamo Riga 2 to 1
1990 - Edmonton Oilers beat Khimik Voskresensk 6 to 2
1991 - Edmonton Oilers beat Red Army 4 to 2
If these games were ANYTHING like the NHL Premiere/Global Series/Whatever we've seen recently then JUST LOL. Basically exhibition games.
brb watching NFL Pro Bowl to figure out who's the best DE.
MrOT
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Why do you include Riga and Voskresensk and the Red Army from 91 when the Soviet Union was almost not existing anymore. The three games between 80 and 86 are what counts. Prime Soviet Union hockey vs the best team in the NHL.
i overall like your list a lot except I would put Jagr in front of Sid and would put Forsberg nearer Sid.
newfy
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I dont doubt that there were some huge difficulties adjusting for them coming over. However, despite that difficulty, if we're really talking about how a few of these guys should be top 10 or 20 all time players they would have been able to adjust better than they did when they came to the NHL. Off the ice values and cultural differences wouldnt matter enough to account for how much they werent close to top players while still in their prime/pretty close to it.
Stephen
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I appreciate the human story for any individual transitioning from life at the tail end of the Soviet Union to North America, but I also find it difficult to reconcile the actual NHL accomplishments of the various Soviet greats with claims to Top 20 status All-Time for these players, let alone five teammates staking claim to those positions, just like it would be difficult for me to place 5 of the dynasty Oilers or 5 of the 90s Penguins or 5 of the 80s Islanders or 70s Canadiens all in the top 20 of All-Time.
I don't have any special bias against Russian players - the USSR and Russia has produced some of the finest hockey players of all-time after all, but because it's difficult to contextualize what the heck they were doing over there in their primes, in a league so different from the NHL(CSKA won 13 championships in a row between 1977 and 1989), what kind of competitive balance is that?
Trying to draw some parallels today, the NHL allows the North American audience a personal look at the various Russian players to really understand how to rank the.
Imagine if we had no access to the KHL, and only saw the Olympic Athletes From Russia in 2018, occasionally at the World Championships, with no information in between, and the players all stayed overseas? How would you rank guys like Shipachov and Gusev? What about Nigel Dawes? What if Evgeni Kuznetsov decided never to come over and just ripped up the KHL? Without the NHL common ground, how would you distinguish between the Ovechkin's from the Kovalchuk's, the Panarin's from the Yakupov's, the Bure's from the Berezin's?
Oddbob
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Fedorov and Kovalev are two of the most talented hockey players I have ever seen, however, their work ethics and drive stopped them from being Top Time Greats! Something that seems to be shared by many Russian star players. When they are on, they are unbeatable, when they don't care, they are among the most frustrating things to watch in all of hockey.
Wait, what? Fedorov was known for his great work ethic. He was always on, a model of consistency. He looked like a male model, and had an air of Hollywood about him. But that has nothing to do with his performance on the ice. Are you confusing Fedorov with someone else? Alex Mogilny maybe? Kovalchuk? Or just randomly applying anti-Russian stereotypes to an all-time great player?
newfy
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That was absolutely a knock on regular season Fedorov and thats coming from one of his bigger fans on the main boards. Coast a bit in the regular season and always turned it on come playoff time. Part of the reason Bowman played him on defense every now and then was to give him a wake up call when he was being too lazy
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Oddbob
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Yes, during the regular season Fedorov had the ability to be a continual Hart candidate like he was in 1994, but he only put in amazing efforts about half the time, and had lots of lower effort games. Like @newfy said, during the playoffs there was little question that his drive always increased to a great degree. Also it is why I said he was among the most talented players of all time, so not sure why you accuse me of anti-Russian stereotyping. Something being true also doesn't mean you have a bias against it, as lots of Russian players have had questionable work ethic in comparison to how skilled some of them are.
Kovalev for example had the talent to be a year in year out 100+ pt player, but he put in the effort of a 60 pt player.
txpd
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Personally I never got to see that 70s Soviet team play. For me elite Russian players started with Fedorov.
txpd
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This scenario is common. There are many players with high end NHL talent that dont make it as full time players much less disappointing star level players. Phil Kessel isnt Russian. Alex Ovechkin isnt Alex Semin.
The Panther
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This is just a casual observation, but is loosely based on having watched hockey since the mid-1980s.
My feeling is that Russian players IN GENERAL (obviously numerous exceptions, as with anything) stick more to their learned, or their individual, style of play when they come to the NHL, whereas Scandinavian players (esp. Swedes) seem more easily to adapt their games to the North American pro-style.
Thus, when Russian (and/or ex-Soviet) players were put into ideal situations where they could flourish -- i.e., with a bunch of countrymen (the 'Russian 5'), or on teams whose systems already suited their learned styles, or having a team built around them (Ovechkin) -- they would show their talent in its full, and generally succeed. However, when Russian player are brought in one at a time to NHL clubs and expected to adapt to an unfamiliar coach/system, my impression is that it is/was harder for them to do so.
By contrast, my casual observation is that Swedish players in particular -- maybe for cultural or practical reasons? -- seem to more easily adapt to what is needed, even when they're on an island (with no other Swedes).
I'm not entrenched in these opinions and I could be very wrong, but that is just my casual observation.
My feeling is that Russian players IN GENERAL (obviously numerous exceptions, as with anything) stick more to their learned, or their individual, style of play when they come to the NHL, whereas Scandinavian players (esp. Swedes) seem more easily to adapt their games to the North American pro-style.
Thus, when Russian (and/or ex-Soviet) players were put into ideal situations where they could flourish -- i.e., with a bunch of countrymen (the 'Russian 5'), or on teams whose systems already suited their learned styles, or having a team built around them (Ovechkin) -- they would show their talent in its full, and generally succeed. However, when Russian player are brought in one at a time to NHL clubs and expected to adapt to an unfamiliar coach/system, my impression is that it is/was harder for them to do so.
By contrast, my casual observation is that Swedish players in particular -- maybe for cultural or practical reasons? -- seem to more easily adapt to what is needed, even when they're on an island (with no other Swedes).
I'm not entrenched in these opinions and I could be very wrong, but that is just my casual observation.
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