How come the Russians are so low ranked in the all time lists?

[Ben White]

C'mon, people think Makarov is in the discussion? He was 31 when he came over, not 40. He never finished higher than 4th in scoring on the Flames. He was outscored by Al MacInnis every year he was there.

He barely outscored Todd Elik (who?) on San Jose and had less PPG.

The reality is that Makarov doesn't have a case for top-200 players of all time, let alone top-20.

this is pure bs. The Russians were clearly ahead of everyone, incl Canadians, in the 80’s skill wise. It’s a different thing to adjust your game to a completely new sport basically (nhl vs European style) at the age of 31. Look at the super series and Canada cup from the 80’s. Makarov and his pals skated circles around nhl superstars. That’s a fact. He’s top 20 period. Kharlamov too and probably Fetisov. And this is only cause we can’t evaluate the Russians fairly from an NHL standpoint, otherwise even more Russians would’ve sneaked into the all time greats due to have dominated their peers more than most players in most eras.

 

[Ben White]

Oh yeah but these Russians were clearly inferior to the all time Canadian heroes right...
Now imagine if this was played on European ice with Russian referees... we wouldn’t even want to think about how embarrassing that scenario would be.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

this is pure bs. The Russians were clearly ahead of everyone, incl Canadians, in the 80’s skill wise. It’s a different thing to adjust your game to a completely new sport basically (nhl vs European style) at the age of 31. Look at the super series and Canada cup from the 80’s. Makarov and his pals skated circles around nhl superstars. That’s a fact. He’s top 20 period. Kharlamov too and probably Fetisov. And this is only cause we can’t evaluate the Russians fairly from an NHL standpoint, otherwise even more Russians would’ve sneaked into the all time greats due to have dominated their peers more than most players in most eras.

yeah.

If anyone ever watched the Red Army documentary (they should), they would know these players were not "plug and play".
They were optimized as kids to play as a 5-man unit.


Detroit's "Russian-5" should be a better indicator of how well those Russians played together as a group of old washed up men + Federov.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

This is a great documentary

 

[Passchendaele]

I can never take the Soviets' performances at face value because:

The soviet group trained together constantly. The NA teams were throw-togethers, taken from different teams playing different systems. You are discounting team chemistry and context.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I can never take the Soviets' performances at face value because:

You are literally describing the political differences of Marxism vs Capitalism.

This is what makes the Soviet players so damn interesting in a historical context.

 

[Ben White]

I can never take the Soviets' performances at face value because:

except that Moscow beat the shit out of Gretzky dynasty Edmonton but I guess there are other excuses for that

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

This is a great documentary

Wow! Thanks for sharing! I will check this out this weekend.

I always found when I was there for work (short trips) that hockey was not as big as it is here in Canada.

It would be interesting to know if the game is losing popularity there.

 

[BruinsBtn]

this is pure bs. The Russians were clearly ahead of everyone, incl Canadians, in the 80’s skill wise. It’s a different thing to adjust your game to a completely new sport basically (nhl vs European style) at the age of 31. Look at the super series and Canada cup from the 80’s. Makarov and his pals skated circles around nhl superstars. That’s a fact. He’s top 20 period. Kharlamov too and probably Fetisov. And this is only cause we can’t evaluate the Russians fairly from an NHL standpoint, otherwise even more Russians would’ve sneaked into the all time greats due to have dominated their peers more than most players in most eras.

How can someone be a top-20 player of all-time if you exclude everything he did after the age of 30? He's not Bobby Orr.

In his last year in Russia he barely scored more goals than a 17-year-old Bure and he did it in 25% more games and I'll assume he was getting all the powerplay minutes. Bure isn't even close to top-20 all-time.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

Weren't Soviet athletes known for being hyped up on steroids ? Like Ivan Drago !
Also we are forgetting that some of the Soviet athletes were also scared of losing because of how their government treated them if they lost. Even after the Soviet Union collapsed the people are afraid of their own government, Russia still has its intel agencies assassinate journalists all the time, politicians running against the establishment go missing or are suddenly convicted of false charges.

Even some Russians in exile are in fear, anyone remember that Russian guy in the UK who was poisoned with radiation to keep him silent from speaking out ?

 

[Theokritos]

C'mon, people think Makarov is in the discussion? He was 31 when he came over, not 40. He never finished higher than 4th in scoring on the Flames. He was outscored by Al MacInnis every year he was there.

He barely outscored Todd Elik (who?) on San Jose and had less PPG.

The reality is that Makarov doesn't have a case for top-200 players of all time, let alone top-20.

Makarov was literally the only player older than 30 who finished in the top 50 of the scoring race in 1989-1990. Here's the list of NHL players who were 29 (=two and a half years younger than Makarov) or older who finished within the top 30:

Wayne Gretzky (29)
Mark Messier (29)
Jari Kurri (29)
Mike Gartner (30)
Sergei Makarov (31)

Makarov did that after spending his entire career playing a very different kind of hockey in a very different system. I'm not sure how that is an argument against him.

We can argue about the top 20 for sure, but anyone who watches him play and think he doesn't have a case for the top 200 (!) players ever is not watching with the same eyes as everyone else, North American fans included.

except that Moscow beat the shit out of Gretzky dynasty Edmonton but I guess there are other excuses for that

I'm not sure what the argument really is. If the argument is that CSKA Moscow was one of the best, most likely even the very best club team in the world during that time, then it is rather obviously true. But it's also true that they had 12-13 of the top 35 Soviet players on their roster. How many of the top 35 Canadian players did the Edmonton Oilers have in that game? Gretzky, Coffey, Anderson, Lowe? (Messier was missing and unlike CSKA, the Oilers couldn't replace him with a top player from another club.) Perhaps one or two more boarderline cases? Add Kurri if we're comparing leagues (NHL vs Soviet league) instead of countries (Canada vs USSR). Either way, that means we'd have to add five to eight top 35 NHL players from other clubs to the Edmonton roster if we wanted a comparison reflecting the strength of the Edmonton Oilers and CSKA Moscow relative to their respective countries or leagues.

You are literally describing the political differences of Marxism vs Capitalism.

Marxism doesn't tell you how to run a hockey program. The Czechoslovak league for example was not set up like the Soviet league, despite Czechoslovakia being a Communist country. It's just that the Soviet Union was very eager to prove its superiority (and yes, that of its political system) on the sports grounds everywhere and thus allowed the coaches of CSKA Moscow to stack their team to a degree that hurt fan interest in the domestic league and provoked complaints in their own country.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Makarov was literally the only player older than 30 who finished in the top 50 of the scoring race in 1989-1990. Here's the list of NHL players who were 29 (=two and a half years younger than Makarov) or older who finished within the top 30:

Wayne Gretzky (29)
Mark Messier (29)
Jari Kurri (29)
Mike Gartner (30)
Sergei Makarov (31)

Makarov did that after spending his entire career playing a very different kind of hockey in a very different system. I'm not sure how that is an argument against him.

We can argue about the top 20 for sure, but anyone who watches him play and think he doesn't have a case for the top 200 (!) players ever is not watching with the same eyes as everyone else, North American fans included.

.

That's a comical amount of cherry picking and moving the goal posts. He had one more point than Neal frickin Broten who was 31 for most of the year. He had 30 points fewer than a 30-year old Bernie Nicholls.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Weren't Soviet athletes known for being hyped up on steroids ? Like Ivan Drago !
Also we are forgetting that some of the Soviet athletes were also scared of losing because of how their government treated them if they lost. Even after the Soviet Union collapsed the people are afraid of their own government, Russia still has its intel agencies assassinate journalists all the time, politicians running against the establishment go missing or are suddenly convicted of false charges.

Even some Russians in exile are in fear, anyone remember that Russian guy in the UK who was poisoned with radiation to keep him silent from speaking out ?

The Soviet Union's performance at the 1988 Summer Olympics is unprecedented. They utterly dominated with 55 gold and 132 medals. Despite more sports being added since, no one has ever come close to that. And 2nd place in those Olympics was East Germany, which was running a well-documented state-sponsored doping program.

 

[Theokritos]

He had one more point than Neal frickin Broten who was 31 for most of the year.

Broten turned 30, not 31, in November 1989.

He had 30 points fewer than a 30-year old Bernie Nicholls.

Nicholls was 28.

 

[BruinsBtn]

Broten turned 30, not 31, in November 1989.



Nicholls was 28.

I don't care how old Bernie Nicholls was. He's Bernie Freakin Nicholls and he outscored him by 30! Heck, a 34-year-old Bernie Nicholls was over a PPG in 1995-96. That's something Makarov only did once. That's in the dead-puck era!

 

[Theokritos]

I don't care how old Bernie Nicholls was.

That's one way to react when you've made a factually wrong statement.

If you don't see the difference between a player who had spent his entire career in the NHL and a player who had spent his career in the Soviet system and came over when he was 31, then you don't. One put the fear in Team Canada and NHL clubs whenever they met him. The other was an afterthought for Team Canada.

 

[BruinsBtn]

That's one way to react when you've made a factually wrong statement.

If you don't see the difference between a player who had spent his entire career in the NHL and a player who had spent his career in the Soviet system and came over when he was 31, then you don't. One put the fear in Team Canada and NHL clubs whenever they met him. The other was an afterthought for Team Canada.

Great. You made my point for me as you're discounting his entire career after 30. Unless you're Bobby Orr, you can't build a resume on that.

And you also ignored my point about his time in Russia. He barely outscored a 17-year-old Bure (also nowhere near a top-20 player of all-time). He had 21 goals to Bure's 17 and he played 28% more games. Presumably he was getting the best minutes and the PP time too.

 

[egelband]

Amazing game which sais a lot. I mean the Soviet team are playing on Canadian ice with Canadian referees who are literally letting them getting away with anything. Still dominating them and winning 6-1. And on top of that the Russians look that much more skilled and better skaters, better tactical you name it. It’s unfair these guys are never considered among the all time greats.

And Fetisov and Kasatonov are playing much more like modern D-men than the Canadien defensemen.

That was my impression too. The Russians play a very mobile defensive game like is the trend in the NHL now. Very impressive how they all move in synch.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Marxism doesn't tell you how to run a hockey program.

It actually did.

There was no "individual" in their system.

There was never going to be a 'Gretzky' in that system. Their system was only going to be as strong as the weakest link on their 5-man unit.

Listen to Scotty Bowman describe it:


Its really hard to compare what they did vs what we did, because they were playing 5-man puck posession a decade before the entire league copied them.

 

[FlameChampion]

The one thing that is kinda confusing is that media seems to blame the KHL contract on why they are rated lower. But to be honest, there arent that many Russians that refuse to sign with the team that drafted them. Sometimes it takes longer for them to get here. But to be honest, a player outside of the top 5 isnt ready for the NHL before 2ish+ years anyway.

Since 2010 - In the first round
2010 - Burmistov
2010 - Tarasenko
2010 - Kuznetsov
2011 - Namestikov
2012 - Yakupov
2012 - Grigorenko
2012 - Vasilevskiy
2013 - Nichuskin
2013 - Zadorov
2014 - Scherbak
2014 - Goldobin
2015 - Provorov
2015 - Gurianov
2015 - Samsonov
2016 - Sergachev
2016 - Rubtsov
2017 - Kostin
2018 - Svechnikov
2018 - Kratsov
2018 - Denisenko
2018 - Alexeyev
2019 - Podkolzin

I think from the above list I think the narrative that Russian KHL contract thing should be thrown out the window. Pretty much all of these players have signed with the teams who have drafted them. I am sure there are some guys in Rounds 2-7 who havent signed but overall I think the myth that Russians are going to sign should go away.

To be honest before I looked up all the Russians who have been drafted in the first round, my initial thought was there were a lot of Russian players who busted. I think I have players like Yakupov, Grigorenko, etc stuck in my head. From looking at the above list, theres definitely a mixture of NHL players and players who have busted. I am sure that the bust rate for Russian players wouldnt be much different than a typical bust rate for Round 1 for all prospects, so I think its another narrative that can also be thrown out.

The one thing though that I would say is that high end quality of the above players isnt that great in my opinion. Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, Vasilevskiy, Provorov and Svechikov are very good players. (Its too early to know on players like Kratsov, Podkolzin). Outside of Vasilevskiy and maybe Svechnikov (still young), I wouldnt say any of these players are superstar type players. Obviously someone like Kucherov who was a 2nd round pick is a superstar. Maybe I should of included more than first round picks but to be honest, I dont think theres that many star players outside of Kucherov who got drafted after the first round but I could be wrong. Russian players reputation is typically that of offensive and skill. I think when you look at the above list, the offensive production is slightly disappointing for about a 10 year span. Obviously there are some amazing Russian players in the likes of Ovechkin, Malkin, etc who still play but I think theres still a lack of top end guys for a 10 year window.

I guess based on this information to me, it seems like maybe the Russian players who have been drafted, have been scouted relatively fairly. I just wish the narrative of them not wanting to sign or play in NA would get dropped because it just doesnt seem to be true at all.

Edit - I missed the all time list in the thread title. Was thinking this was a draft thread for some reason. My bad.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Another more 'micro-cosmic' way of looking at Makarov's production.

Can any of you explain Federov's dramatic drop in production once he was no longer in that Detroit system that allowed him to play like a Russian?

Does anyone think that takes away from his Harts and Selke's?


Makarov, just like Federov was a by-product of playing in a 5-man unit. I don't think that takes away at all from what Makarov did.

 

[newfy]

except that Moscow beat the shit out of Gretzky dynasty Edmonton but I guess there are other excuses for that

They were a dynasty but its still a team with talent spread out across a whole league. The oilers were obviously the best NHL team at the time but the SOviets were still playing against a team trotting out guys like McSorely, Lowe and Fogolin on defense consistently. Youre talking about a national team that trained year round together to try to show world dominance vs an NHL team still, no matter how good the NHL team was.

Another more 'micro-cosmic' way of looking at Makarov's production.

Can any of you explain Federov's dramatic drop in production once he was no longer in that Detroit system that allowed him to play like a Russian?

Does anyone think that takes away from his Harts and Selke's?


Makarov, just like Federov was a by-product of playing in a 5-man unit. I don't think that takes away at all from what Makarov did.

Fedorovs production was already trending down with Detroit. His last season he lit it up but the 2 or 3 before that he had really similar production to his first season in Anaheim. But then there was a lock out and a season where he only played 5 games. I dont think his production drop had anything to do with a difference in playing a Russian style and entirely with being away from the game for a while and getting older.

It also wasnt a dramatic drop in production like you said. In his last 5 years in Detroit his points per game was 0.9. When he went to Anaheim it dropped to 0.81. If you exclude his last season in Detroit which was kinda an outlier/contract year the 4 years prior were 0.87. A difference of like 4 points a season. Considering how much he aged over that time, thats not much of a drop at all

 

[Perfect_Drug]

They were a dynasty but its still a team with talent spread out across a whole league. The oilers were obviously the best NHL team at the time but the SOviets were still playing against a team trotting out guys like McSorely, Lowe and Fogolin on defense consistently. Youre talking about a national team that trained year round together to try to show world dominance vs an NHL team still, no matter how good the NHL team was.



Fedorovs production was already trending down with Detroit. His last season he lit it up but the 2 or 3 before that he had really similar production to his first season in Anaheim. But then there was a lock out and a season where he only played 5 games. I dont think his production drop had anything to do with a difference in playing a Russian style and entirely with being away from the game for a while and getting older.

It also wasnt a dramatic drop in production like you said. In his last 5 years in Detroit his points per game was 0.9. When he went to Anaheim it dropped to 0.81. If you exclude his last season in Detroit which was kinda an outlier/contract year the 4 years prior were 0.87. A difference of like 4 points a season. Considering how much he aged over that time, thats not much of a drop at all

Then let me reframe this.

If Sergei Federov went from being one of the top players in the league, and then at the age of 31, then why the hell are we holding it against Makarov/Fetisov?

 

[Ben White]

Another more 'micro-cosmic' way of looking at Makarov's production.

Can any of you explain Federov's dramatic drop in production once he was no longer in that Detroit system that allowed him to play like a Russian?

Does anyone think that takes away from his Harts and Selke's?


Makarov, just like Federov was a by-product of playing in a 5-man unit. I don't think that takes away at all from what Makarov did.

Very very good point. It’s amazing the extent to which NHL purists tend to look the other way to keep the purple goggles on when it comes to nhl - soviet comparisons of the 70’s and 80’s.

 

[Ben White]

So let me get this straight:

Team Soviet beats the shit out of team Canada.
“But they get to play together all the time. Doesn’t count.”

Moscow beats the shit out of Endmonton, Montreal etc. and it’s not even remotely close.
”Moscow possessed a larger % of their national talent. Doesn’t count.”

Makarov and Larionov were still star players after coming over to the NHL after the age of 30, a completely new system, rink size, rules, a different sport basically back then.
“They should still have dominated even more to be considered among the all time greats.”