How come the Russians are so low ranked in the all time lists?

[Ben White]

Hahahaha and this wasn’t even the Soviet national team. It was their top club vs NHL’s top club and one of the all time greatest dynasties. How can anyone claim that the 80’s NHL stars were so much better than the Soviet ones after watching this?

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

Hahahaha and this wasn’t even the Soviet national team. It was their top club vs NHL’s top club and one of the all time greatest dynasties. How can anyone claim that the 80’s NHL stars were so much better than the Soviet ones after watching this?

Ehhh, to be fair most of the Soviet national team came from that club. I have no doubt that many of the Soviet players would have been NHL stars. I wonder the most about Tretiak. Where would he stand among the greatest goalies in NHL history?

 

[Ben White]

Ehhh, to be fair most of the Soviet national team came from that club. I have no doubt that many of the Soviet players would have been NHL stars. I wonder the most about Tretiak. Where would he stand among the greatest goalies in NHL history?

But imagine this Oilers “best of all time dynasty” going over to the Soviet Union playing a couple of games on European ice with Russian referees. Puts things into perspective... Obviously the oilers had a bad game but looking at that Moscow team beating the Canadiens that same year 6 - 1, I mean and you can see the difference in skill and speed. I bet at least a handful of those players should be considered way higher against their Canadian peers in retrospect.

I bet that some people believe Makarov wasn’t even in the same ball park as Kurri for example. Watching this I actually think it’s the other way around. (Not to claim Kurri was Canadian or anything lol).

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Whoever tries to argue "Malkin > Ovechkin" on an all time list shouldn't be allowed to talk about hockey lol. Fun fact: OV has more hart nominations than Malkin has top 20 finishes

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I


I’d put 6 Europeans in the top 20: Ovechkin, Malkin, Kharlamov, Forsberg, Lidstrom, Jagr

Malkin is borderline though

players I wouldn’t put in the top 20: Messier, Sakic, Kurri, Francis

Absolutely no chance Malkin, Forsberg or Kharlamov are top 20 players ever. OV, Lidstrom and Jagr obviously are (so is Hasek). Makarov > Kharlamov pretty easily too.

 

[Ben White]

Whoever tries to argue "Malkin > Ovechkin" on an all time list shouldn't be allowed to talk about hockey lol. Fun fact: OV has more hart nominations than Malkin has top 20 finishes

yeah but this is also what happens when you compare an injury prone player to a non injury prone player. It’s not all about the “finishes”. Malkin could still have been the better player for most of the time when he played compared to Ovi’s most of the time level. There should always be a distinct separation between “best” and “greatest” on the all time lists. I’d choose a prime Malkin over a prime Ovi for my team. And I think many people would.

 

[ScaredStreit]

How many Russian players would you ranked among the top 20 players of all time? Ovechkin would be in the bottom half of the 20 for me, but definitely top 20. Who else? If we're only looking at peaks I'd add Fedorov. Show me a list without Ovechkin and Jagr in the top 20 of all time and I'm 100% with you that the list is biased toward North Americans...ok really Canadians because honestly no Americans would be top 20 and none would deserve it if we're being honest.

 

[Ben White]

How many Russian players would you ranked among the top 20 players of all time? Ovechkin would be in the bottom half of the 20 for me, but definitely top 20. Who else? If we're only looking at peaks I'd add Fedorov. Show me a list without Ovechkin and Jagr in the top 20 of all time and I'm 100% with you that the list is biased toward North Americans...ok really Canadians because honestly no Americans would be top 20 and none would deserve it if we're being honest.

looking at those 80’s games where Moscow bullies the NHL powerhouses with clearly superior players in terms of skill I start to lean towards that we shouldn’t include non nhl players at all in these lists. It’s simply impossible. But right now I’d say -hey, we’ve all been fooled by falsely written history with purple glasses on, throw in at least 4 players from those 80’s Russian teams on the top 10 right away.

(maybe a slight over reaction but you get the point)

 

[Syckle78]

How many Russian players would you ranked among the top 20 players of all time? Ovechkin would be in the bottom half of the 20 for me, but definitely top 20. Who else? If we're only looking at peaks I'd add Fedorov. Show me a list without Ovechkin and Jagr in the top 20 of all time and I'm 100% with you that the list is biased toward North Americans...ok really Canadians because honestly no Americans would be top 20 and none would deserve it if we're being honest.

Hasek and Lidstrom have cases to be in the top 20 also but yeah at this point in time there's not a whole lot of players not from North America to be ranked up there. But that's too be expected this early into a globally fed league.

(I feel like I'm missing someone major from Europe for the top 20)

 

[Ben White]

Hasek and Lidstrom have cases to be in the top 20 also but yeah at this point in time there's not a whole lot of players not from North America to be ranked up there. But that's too be expected this early into a globally fed league.

(I feel like I'm missing someone major from Europe for the top 20)

So the thread isn’t mainly about non nhl Russians, or what’s the point otherwise?

 

[wetcoast]

I


I’d put 6 Europeans in the top 20: Ovechkin, Malkin, Kharlamov, Forsberg, Lidstrom, Jagr

I think the 3 in bold have a really good case for top 20 hockey players of all time, especially the last 2 and as much as I love Foppa I can't really find him in the top 20 due to time missed, same with Malkin.

Malkin is borderline though

players I wouldn’t put in the top 20: Messier, Sakic, Kurri, Francis

None of these players were in the top 20 of all time in the HOH top 100 all time list, Moose was the highest at 21, just ahead of Ovechkin and his playoff resume is what did it for most people I would assume.

 

[Ben White]

Amazing game which sais a lot. I mean the Soviet team are playing on Canadian ice with Canadian referees who are literally letting them getting away with anything. Still dominating them and winning 6-1. And on top of that the Russians look that much more skilled and better skaters, better tactical you name it. It’s unfair these guys are never considered among the all time greats.

And Fetisov and Kasatonov are playing much more like modern D-men than the Canadien defensemen.

 

[wetcoast]

Ok so hear goes the chemistry argument. You might argue that team Canada would be deeper in talent than the Oilers but the fact that the Russians had to play on NHL ice with NHL rules should wipe out a lot of that disadvantage. Just look at the speed and skill on some of the Soviets. To say they weren’t at least close to Canada’s top talent at that point isn’t right imo.

Everyone in this thread should watch this game. The Oilers are getting absolutely dominated. And there was no salary cap in this day and age so the Oilers was a pretty darn good team, an old fashioned powerhouse. Makarov was actually really good in San José in the early 90’s way past his prime. I’d bet he’d be up there with Ovi had he made an NHL career in his prime. Another thing that occur to me is that the Russians don’t really seem to dominate on a system basis, rather that they look much faster and more skilled on an individual basis. I bet they were insanely well trained and weren’t allowed much life outside hockey. But the reason doesn’t really matter, I actually think they are underrated from a historical perspective.

It was an exhibition game December 28th and they would play an NHL game the next night in Vancouver.

Do you really think that Edmonton laid it all on the line in that game?

We know that Red army did because their tour had propaganda overtones.

Krutov several years later looked like hot garbage in the NHL so motivation does matter.

 

[Romang67]

yeah but this is also what happens when you compare an injury prone player to a non injury prone player. It’s not all about the “finishes”. Malkin could still have been the better player for most of the time when he played compared to Ovi’s most of the time level. There should always be a distinct separation between “best” and “greatest” on the all time lists. I’d choose a prime Malkin over a prime Ovi for my team. And I think many people would.

As far as I recall, Malkin was never considered the best player in the NHL even during his peak, much less throughout his prime. Prime Ovechkin won three straight Lindsays and just missed out on three straight Harts, joining Gretzky and Lafleur as the only people who have ever won three straight Lindsay/Pearson awards.

Through those three years, Ovechkin put up 35 more points than the second player in the league (incidentally Malkin, who played 2 more games), and scored 35 more goals than the second leading goal scorer (and 52 more goals than the third leading goal scorer). To add to that, prime Ovechkin was an absolute terror all over the ice. He was 9th in hits over those three years, despite being 12th in the league in CF%.

To be completely honest, I think people who would consider taking prime Malkin over prime Ovechkin have forgotten how good Ovechkin was.

 

[Ben White]

It was an exhibition game December 28th and they would play an NHL game the next night in Vancouver.

Do you really think that Edmonton laid it all on the line in that game?

We know that Red army did because their tour had propaganda overtones.

Krutov several years later looked like hot garbage in the NHL so motivation does matter.

Yeah post prime krutov playing his entire career on big ice surface, different rules and a different game basically. Go and watch Montreal getting completely humiliated by the red army team that same year despite super biased referees, NHL rink size, NHL rules and home ice. Time to take the purple goggles off. The Russians were on a different level than anyone in that day and age. Their game and skill level were way ahead of their time.

Btw you can even hear the home announcers in that Oiler’s game saying the Russians have a higher skill level.

If that’s really the case that these super serieses were initiated by the soviets for propaganda purposes then that’s very interesting, they must have been well aware of their superiority then thinking they could travel over seas and play against biased referees on a smaller ice surface than they were used to, different rules etc. and still thinking it was a good bet to bank on that they would win against stacked dynasties among others for propaganda purposes.

 

[Kshahdoo]

How many Russian players would you ranked among the top 20 players of all time? Ovechkin would be in the bottom half of the 20 for me, but definitely top 20. Who else? If we're only looking at peaks I'd add Fedorov. Show me a list without Ovechkin and Jagr in the top 20 of all time and I'm 100% with you that the list is biased toward North Americans...ok really Canadians because honestly no Americans would be top 20 and none would deserve it if we're being honest.

All time NHLers or all time overall?

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

yeah but this is also what happens when you compare an injury prone player to a non injury prone player. It’s not all about the “finishes”. Malkin could still have been the better player for most of the time when he played compared to Ovi’s most of the time level. There should always be a distinct separation between “best” and “greatest” on the all time lists. I’d choose a prime Malkin over a prime Ovi for my team. And I think many people would.

I've never seen anyone make an all time list based on "best". Award finishes, pt finishes, goal finishes, etc are what makes a career and determine all time rankings. Malkin's individual career is crap compared to OV's. 18-6 individual awards, more pt finishes, way better hart finishes, more PPG wins too so no injury excuse for Malkin. Yes he was injured a lot but that's his problem and too bad. If you want to talk about "best" and without injuries, well Malkin had 2 healthy seasons back to back in 07/08-08/09. Guess who tore him a new hole in hart and lindsay voting and was PPG leader both years? That's right, OV. OV has the best season between them, better extended peak for sure, destroys Malkin in prime and especially longevity. Best is arguable (OV was better but close), but in terms of greatness OV is miles ahead.

 

[Ben White]

I've never seen anyone make an all time list based on "best". Award finishes, pt finishes, goal finishes, etc are what makes a career and determine all time rankings. Malkin's individual career is crap compared to OV's. 18-6 individual awards, more pt finishes, way better hart finishes, more PPG wins too so no injury excuse for Malkin. Yes he was injured a lot but that's his problem and too bad. If you want to talk about "best" and without injuries, well Malkin had 2 healthy seasons back to back in 07/08-08/09. Guess who tore him a new hole in hart and lindsay voting and was PPG leader both years? That's right, OV. OV has the best season between them, better extended peak for sure, destroys Malkin in prime and especially longevity. Best is arguable (OV was better but close), but in terms of greatness OV is miles ahead.

I think “best” is much more interesting. Anyone can count finishes and awards. To evaluate who actually was the better player is more interesting in my book.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I think “best” is much more interesting. Anyone can count finishes and awards. To evaluate who actually was the better player is more interesting in my book.

OK well the media and players already evaluated for you. There's a reason OV won landslide harts and lindsays over Malkin in 08 & 09. Because he was better. Also, HF polls obviously aren't everything, but pretty recently OV's 07/08 comfortably beat Malkin's 11/12 for "best post lockout season". So that's media, players and fans. Not much to discuss.

 

[JianYang]

We tend to only measure Russians from the last 30 years, so it's a smaller sample size.

Pre nhl Russians are mostly a mystery, and fans here were only interested in rating nhl players for the most part.

 

[Ben White]

OK well the media and players already evaluated for you. There's a reason OV won landslide harts and lindsays over Malkin in 08 & 09. Because he was better. Also, HF polls obviously aren't everything, but pretty recently OV's 07/08 comfortably beat Malkin's 11/12 for "best post lockout season". So that's media, players and fans. Not much to discuss.

Doesn’t sound like a “who was actually better” evaluation to me. Finishes and awards - I already brought that problem up in my previous post. What’s more? One season? Doesn’t tell who was actually better for most of the time when playing (which is what better should mean), Ovi also has more “good” (as in good, healthy and full) seasons to choose from than Malkin so it doesn’t tell the full story. You still haven’t come around the injury prone vs non injury prone problem I highlighted in my previous post.

I think though it’s very much up for debate. I’m not even entirely sure that I’d say Malkin is indeed the better player. It’s just that those old arguments where more healthy and longer career automatically means better player (if somewhat close to start with) doesn’t cut it for me.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Looking through the "official" (North American that is) all time lists of "top 20 players of all time" for example they look very different from the European ones and all the legendary Soviet players find themselves ridiculously low in the ranking. Thinking about that the Soviet beat Canada 8-1 in the 1981 Canada Cup final and that the Russian Canada Cup teams through the 80's played at the level of Team Canada including Gretzky and Lemieux, even though they had to adapt ot smaller rink, different rules etc. in no time to do that. All the external circumstances was NA biased, yet the Russians played at the same level. Are the "Greatest players of all time" lists too NA biased?

Good post, Bure is one of the greatest players to play, I always think people do not realize how great he was. When he was in his prime, he was one of the most explosive players in the game. Simply A beautiful hockey player.

 

[BudBundy]

But imagine this Oilers “best of all time dynasty” going over to the Soviet Union playing a couple of games on European ice with Russian referees. Puts things into perspective... Obviously the oilers had a bad game but looking at that Moscow team beating the Canadiens that same year 6 - 1, I mean and you can see the difference in skill and speed. I bet at least a handful of those players should be considered way higher against their Canadian peers in retrospect.

I bet that some people believe Makarov wasn’t even in the same ball park as Kurri for example. Watching this I actually think it’s the other way around. (Not to claim Kurri was Canadian or anything lol).

Alright now. We’ve let you have your fun but now it’s time to come back to reality. For starters, you are basing your opinion on Soviet era hockey teams playing exhibition games against NHL clubs. If a Russian put in a bad showing in a propaganda exercise like this, there was a very real chance they’d be put on a one-way flight to be mucking pig barns in Siberia. The NHL players didn’t want to be embarrassed, but really didn’t give a sh!t either. Secondly, the Red Army team really was a hand picked team of the best the old USSR had, and they trained and played together constantly. That’s not to say that there were not some outstanding players and teams but this “making the Oilers dynasty team look silly, and Kurri wasn’t in the same ball park as Makarov” stuff is just over the top. If Russian hockey is and was so superior, why do they have so relatively few dominant players over the last nearly 30 years since the doors were flung wide open to the NHL??

p.s. Forsberg couldn’t carry Messier’s jock strap.

 

[byrath]

Top ___ lists tend to be pretty pretentious, and the more inclusive they are the worse they get. Trying to rank international players against NHL'ers is silly, so is ranking players from over a hundred years ago against current players.
People are welcome to have fun trying, of course.

 

[Killer Orcas]

For the same reason, NHL players in the East usually use to win most awards as the writers use to see them the most. Nowadays it's not as prominent as so much more ways to view games but how often did anyone ever see the Russians back then??