How come the Russians are so low ranked in the all time lists?

[gwh]

Kharlamov at 5 seems rather high but I guess he is the Russian equivalent of Howie Morenz in that tragic deaths somehow seem to add to their legendary status.

Kharlamov has nothing to do with the NHL, never played in the league and thus doesn't belong to an NHL list.

 

[Absolut]

This is just a casual observation, but is loosely based on having watched hockey since the mid-1980s.

My feeling is that Russian players IN GENERAL (obviously numerous exceptions, as with anything) stick more to their learned, or their individual, style of play when they come to the NHL, whereas Scandinavian players (esp. Swedes) seem more easily to adapt their games to the North American pro-style.

Thus, when Russian (and/or ex-Soviet) players were put into ideal situations where they could flourish -- i.e., with a bunch of countrymen (the 'Russian 5'), or on teams whose systems already suited their learned styles, or having a team built around them (Ovechkin) -- they would show their talent in its full, and generally succeed. However, when Russian player are brought in one at a time to NHL clubs and expected to adapt to an unfamiliar coach/system, my impression is that it is/was harder for them to do so.

By contrast, my casual observation is that Swedish players in particular -- maybe for cultural or practical reasons? -- seem to more easily adapt to what is needed, even when they're on an island (with no other Swedes).

I'm not entrenched in these opinions and I could be very wrong, but that is just my casual observation.

I think this was true for a long time. Swedes grew up watching English-language TV, and most spoke English fluently when they came to the NHL. Which was not the case with Russians (and Finns, to an extent). Socially and culturally Sweden is a lot more similar to Canada & US than Russia. But things have changed lot in the past 10 years. Guys like Provorov, Sergachev, and Svechnikov are indistinguishable from their North American peers; they seem more Americanized than most Swedes. Part of it is coming to play in NA at a younger age. And they grow up differently now, with the world being connected, youtube providing English language content, and stuff like that. I talked to Sergachev once, and it was just a bizarre feeling. You would never look at him and think "oh that's a Russian hockey player" - he is just a typical North American kid.

 

[wetcoast]

Kharlamov at 5 seems rather high but I guess he is the Russian equivalent of Howie Morenz in that tragic deaths somehow seem to add to their legendary status.

I was replying to this list here so basically players who have peaks/primes/careers post 1970 and yes Kharlamov is too high at 5.

This is my current top 20 (“best” not “greatest”) list for 1970-2020 (no goalies):

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Howe
5. Kharlamov
6. Crosby
7. Jagr
8. Bossy
9. Esposito
10. Bourque
11. Potvin
12. Lafleur
13. Forsberg
14. Ovechkin
15. Lidstrom
16. Makarov
17. Fetisov
18. Malkin
19. Larionov
20. Fedorov

 

[wetcoast]

Not every list.

Some of the history forum regulars and Top 100 players project participants say Ovechkin is not even top 50, or assert Ovie is inferior to Ryan Getzlaf, etc.

Then again it's a pretty small cabal over there.

Some, you mean one guy, may he rest in piece who did have some outlandish rankings (Gretzky in the playoffs) and maybe there is a single guy who might prefer a Getzlaf type of player but I'm also pretty sure he ranked Ovechkin much higher career wise than Getzlaf.

BTW we are still waiting for your top 100 player list for what over a year now?

 

[wetcoast]

Tretyak, Kharlamov, Jakushev, Makarov, Fetisov I this these 5 players belong to top 20 of all time

Really , you think 5 of the top 20 all time were born in Russia in a 12 year period?

 

[wetcoast]

This is just a casual observation, but is loosely based on having watched hockey since the mid-1980s.


I'm not entrenched in these opinions and I could be very wrong, but that is just my casual observation.

we need more people to look into the mirror and say these words, myself included.

 

[Oddbob]

This scenario is common. There are many players with high end NHL talent that dont make it as full time players much less disappointing star level players. Phil Kessel isnt Russian. Alex Ovechkin isnt Alex Semin.

It seems to be more common among Russians is the thing. You don't notice as many super skilled players from other Countries, like Canada, Sweden, Finland etc, as with Russia that play well below their talent level. It isn't some hating Russia thing, more-so the effort shown by some. Also doesn't mean that every single Russian is thought of like that, but select high end players who have shown a lower effort level than their peers. I don't think that of Ovechkin or Panarin, but at times Malkin and Kovalchuk (did when he was in his prime) play under their ability.

 

[Absolut]

It seems to be more common among Russians is the thing. You don't notice as many super skilled players from other Countries, like Canada, Sweden, Finland etc, as with Russia that play well below their talent level. It isn't some hating Russia thing, more-so the effort shown by some. Also doesn't mean that every single Russian is thought of like that, but select high end players who have shown a lower effort level than their peers. I don't think that of Ovechkin or Panarin, but at times Malkin and Kovalchuk (did when he was in his prime) play under their ability.

"But he at times played / plays under his ability" can be said about a lot of players. You see what you want to see. As neither a Russian or a North American, I think this is a really cringe-worthy comment.

 

[Passchendaele]

Really , you think 5 of the top 20 all time were born in Russia in a 12 year period?

Just more evidence that Soviet players tend to be overrated.

People tend to romanticize what-ifs. Kurt Cobain was a good musician, but nowhere near the greatests of all-time.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Some, you mean one guy, may he rest in piece who did have some outlandish rankings (Gretzky in the playoffs) and maybe there is a single guy who might prefer a Getzlaf type of player but I'm also pretty sure he ranked Ovechkin much higher career wise than Getzlaf.

...or the regular who said Sidney Crosby is just as good of a goal scorer as Ovechkin, but he just doesn't feel like scoring more goals.

...or the several regulars / top 100 players project participants who claim Ovechkin is not physical and sucks at passing the puck.

I could go on...

I'm just pointing out that if anyone wants evidence of bias against Russians, HF's history forum is pretty eye opening.

And you'll be waiting for my list for a while longer. I'll probably create two lists actually - a best and greatest list.

 

[gwh]

Really , you think 5 of the top 20 all time were born in Russia in a 12 year period?

Russia was the top icehockey nation in 60s and 70s. 80s was even. Canada has been the top 1990s, 2000. 2010s is still up to debate.

If you want to shake the hat, 4 players per decade and at least 6 russians in there. Minimum.

You know who Konovalenko (soviet goalie in the worlds best national team for 60s) and Maltsev are for starters?

 

[DFC]

Not every list.

Some of the history forum regulars and Top 100 players project participants say Ovechkin is not even top 50, or assert Ovie is inferior to Ryan Getzlaf, etc.

Then again it's a pretty small cabal over there.

I don't think any mainstream list will ever have him outside the top 20. And most will have him higher. Ovy's done everything but win a Selke, and could easily end up within spitting distance of a record thought to be unbreakable. I think people's biases against players are strongest while they're playing, but Ovy will be remembered as arguably the greatest goal scorer of all time.

There have been a lot of great Russians to play the game, but Ovy's the one who remained consistently great (emphasis on great) over a looong period of time, and I don't think history will slight him for that. But that's the only way any player, Russian or not, gets into these top end conversations.

 

[txpd]

It seems to be more common among Russians is the thing. You don't notice as many super skilled players from other Countries, like Canada, Sweden, Finland etc, as with Russia that play well below their talent level. It isn't some hating Russia thing, more-so the effort shown by some. Also doesn't mean that every single Russian is thought of like that, but select high end players who have shown a lower effort level than their peers. I don't think that of Ovechkin or Panarin, but at times Malkin and Kovalchuk (did when he was in his prime) play under their ability.

In order to notice, you have to look. It doesn't that EVERY SINGLE Russian....means, yea as a rule they are. That's a load buddy. The Caps have had as many Russian players as anyone in the last 15 years. Semin and Kuznetsov maybe. Ovechkin, Orlov, Fedorov, Kozlov, Varlamov not at all. This includes Varlamov. Meanwhile I watched Jagr, not Russian, coast and quit.

 

[txpd]

There have been a lot of great Russians to play the game, but Ovy's the one who remained consistently great (emphasis on great) over a looong period of time, and I don't think history will slight him for that. But that's the only way any player, Russian or not, gets into these top end conversations.

Datsyuk? Zubov?

 

[DFC]

Datsyuk? Zubov?

I love DAtsyuk, but where are we talking in terms of all-time lists? He's not in the Ovy tier. Very few are. That's not a bias against Datsyuk. It's more that it's really, really hard to get yourself inside the top 20ish players in history.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I feel like Makarov is really underrated. He came into the NHL at 31 (his scoring pace had already fallen off considerably in Russia vs where he was in his early 20's) and was still a point per game player for 3 seasons. Pretty impressive considering the significant challenge of transitioning to the NA game.

He probably would have been a 125-150 point forward during his prime in the 80's.

 

[DFC]

I feel like Makarov is really underrated. He came into the NHL at 31 (his scoring pace had already fallen off considerably in Russia vs where he was in his early 20's) and was still a point per game player for 3 seasons. Pretty impressive considering the significant challenge of transitioning to the NA game.

He probably would have been a 125-150 point forward during his prime in the 80's.

We see that kind of thing in North America too though. It's just unlikely people are going to dig up games of Makarov in his prime, sort of like a lot of great NA players get more/less forgotten as the people who actually watched them live die off. We're left with the names of the best of the best, but most of us don't know much about them, and we have no idea who the next tier superstars even were. I think it's just hard for legends of bygone eras to translate, but I think, for the most part, Russians who played in the NHL will be compared fairly (I think Russians in the NHL make up a reasonably proportional chunk of most top-100 lists, considering there were/are fewer of them in the NHL, and it's only been about 30 years).

I think it's more a bias toward non-NHL leagues, which comes from a muddy picture of how to compare the dominant players in those leagues to the dominant players in the NHL.

 

[Sentinel]

My Top 50 includes

8. Ovechkin
10. Makarov
23. Fetisov
25. Tretiak
31. Fedorov
36. Firsov
37. Malkin
46. Kharlamov

But I fully realize that my list is very different from all other hockey experts.

 

[Sentinel]

Just more evidence that Soviet players tend to be overrated.

People tend to romanticize what-ifs. Kurt Cobain was a good musician, but nowhere near the greatests of all-time.

He also left a tremendous mark. He was a mediocre musician, an excellent songwriter, and one of most important cultural icons in history.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

My Top 50 includes

8. Ovechkin
10. Makarov
23. Fetisov
25. Tretiak
31. Fedorov
36. Firsov
37. Malkin
46. Kharlamov

But I fully realize that my list is very different from all other hockey experts.

I am curious, what is your entire top 20? Perhaps, entire top 50. Would be fun to see who you ranked above who. Some context would help.

Thank you

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I


I’d put 6 Europeans in the top 20: Ovechkin, Malkin, Kharlamov, Forsberg, Lidstrom, Jagr

Malkin is borderline though

players I wouldn’t put in the top 20: Messier, Sakic, Kurri, Francis

Sergei Makarov was better than all those guys.

 

[Merrrlin]

My Top 50 includes

8. Ovechkin
10. Makarov
23. Fetisov
25. Tretiak
31. Fedorov
36. Firsov
37. Malkin
46. Kharlamov

But I fully realize that my list is very different from all other hockey experts.

I am not hear to pick on your list, it looks very good to me. However, I am curious about Malkin. Why so low? By the numbers, I have him in the top 15, I think.

 

[Sentinel]

Weren't Soviet athletes known for being hyped up on steroids ? Like Ivan Drago !
Also we are forgetting that some of the Soviet athletes were also scared of losing because of how their government treated them if they lost. Even after the Soviet Union collapsed the people are afraid of their own government, Russia still has its intel agencies assassinate journalists all the time, politicians running against the establishment go missing or are suddenly convicted of false charges.

Even some Russians in exile are in fear, anyone remember that Russian guy in the UK who was poisoned with radiation to keep him silent from speaking out ?

Season 4 Gungan Attack GIF by Star Wars - Find & Share on GIPHY

 

[Sentinel]

I am not hear to pick on your list, it looks very good to me. However, I am curious about Malkin. Why so low? By the numbers, I have him in the top 15, I think.

He has one Hart, two Art Rosses, a Conn Smythe (and another CS-worthy run), a Calder, and one great international performance. That's good enough for a spot where I have him. He was injured or disinterested too often. But #37 is nothing to sneeze at. At least he made my list, unlike the NHL's Top 100.

 

[Sentinel]

Now here is where the biggest disconnect between NA and Russian hockey lore is: Vsevolod Bobrov. For Russians, this man is routinely named in the Top 3 hockey players of All Time, along with Kharlamov and Tretiak. And he hardly ever makes ANY Western lists.

I realize that his greatness and his legend comes from the fact that he was Russia's FIRST HOCKEY STAR (and a soccer superstar to boot). Kids went into hockey and adults attended hockey because of him.

I see him as Russia's equivalent to Joe Malone. But Malone is usually treated with way more reverence than Bobrov.