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Lol. What grind? Their league was far fewer games and 10x softer than the NHL.
How come the Russians are so low ranked in the all time lists?
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Lol. What grind? Their league was far fewer games and 10x softer than the NHL.
They are not overrated on this board or in NA media, they're underrated. I've seen countless disgustingly ridiculous lists by various hockey 'authorities'.
However, I wouldn't put all of those mentiod five players into the 20 myself. Doesn't change what I said above.
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Their training regime was not from this planet, that's the grind. I can't believe you are not aware of this, yet talk with such authority...
You have also showed complete incapability to appreciate what it means to transition from another, vastly different society, political system and way of life to another. Literally overnight, in many cases with little to no language skills. I've made a much easier transition once, in a different line of work. Even with excellent language skills and much more similar societies than Soviet Union vs. USA, it was not a trivial thing to do. But let me guess: you have no actual experience of such things?
If you are unable to grasp the importance of things like those, this discussion is meaningless, like talking to wall.
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The "grind" would be the years of hard training Soviet players endured, not the number of games played.
Well Fetisov was not in his prime anymore when he came over. He dominated international play for many years. He is considered by a lot of international experts as one of the best defenders of all time. And if you watch him play in games in the 80s, you really see how good he was. Consider that when he came over the NHL had a completely different style of play, the US another culture, a completely other lifestyle. I don't think he trained nearly as hard in the NHL as in the soviet union.
Well now that all the best players of the world are playing in the NHL you can say that when a player or LA creme de la Creme who dominates the stats.... Most goals, most points etc are truly the best of the world. But.... Back in the 70s and 80 the situation was completely different. Basically we had the NHL with only a few Europeans.... And the soviet union on the other side which was clearly the best team outside northamerica. And in the soviet union of the 80 there was a certain Sergei Makarov who was simply far superior than anybody else. Even in the red machine only Vladimir Krutov could be considered in the same category. I mean I saw Makarow play personally.... When the KLM line on the ice every one was like...... Wow... What did they just do....? I mean.... How dare you talk in this way without due respect to such a player. I am not Russian but I saw Makarov and altera making circles around the NHL best players. I saw every game of the Canada cup final of 87. The soviets were clearly the better team. Even if they lost,the third game. They dominated them and I mean.. There was Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Coffey etc. What the hack skill wise and I am not saying talentwise the was not a single Canadien player as skilled as the Russians. I saw not once but a lot of times in those three games soviet players being given penalties for nothing and Canadiens players could almost do what they want but only in some cases they got penalties. Well it's only my personal opinion.. But don't talk about Sergei Makarov based on what you saw in the NHL...he played the best of the best and he clearly showed that he belongs to them without any doubt.
He was 31 years old and we have seen many other Dmen do much better at that age and older in the NHL.
He also played half of that season with his long time Dman partner Alexei Kasatonov and with him as well for the next 3 seasons in NJ.
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Yeah, the shots were 46-23 in Game 3 for Canada. That's some domination. Russia got more powerplays in the series.
Yawn.
Makarov did nothing in the NHL. What Europeans fail to understand is that the NHL was 10x tougher. You got absolutely mugged every game. Dangling was impossible because you got killed. Meanwhile Makarov was playing on an all-star team that won the championship every team in the league had fewer penalty minutes than Bob Probert did in a season. You call those hard years compared to what NHLers dealt with?
Europeans like to re-write history like Canada gooned it up every time they played. Guess what, every NHL player had to deal with that 80 games a season, and probably worse. The Russians had to deal with it for a few games and they skated off the ice and quit. Watch the Russia-Philly game where they quit. It was nothing. That's why Russians came over and couldn't hack it. That's why the stars in the NHL are so much greater.
What do you think would have happened if Bure stayed in Russia, or if he was born 10 years earlier? He almost outscored Makarov as a 17-year-old on the same team as a prime Makarov, 25% fewer games too. No PP time.
If Bure would have stayed in Russia he would have destroyed everything Makarov did. People would have been in awe of him every time Russia played Canada. They'd say he was the best player in the world.
What happened? He came to the NHL. He had some great seasons, two goal-scoring titles too. But he's not one of the all-time greats, not even close. Not even 500 goals. Why? Because the NHL is brutal.
If by softer you mean, that the NHLers could not hit a soviet star because he was too slick on the skates for them, then yes.
That myth coming from a Bruins fan is not surprising though. Big bad Bruins and all, right? That is why I never was a fan of the Bruins.
Less games, way more practice. Or do you think that superior soviet hockey came from sitting around, staring at the walls? Every foreigner who played in the KHL to this day know how much tougher russian pre-season conditioning is. And that is nothing compared to what it was like back in the day. They sure did not went through a 82 games regular season grind. That does not mean it was in any way easier for them.
BruinsBtn
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If by softer you mean, that the NHLers could not hit a soviet star because he was too slick on the skates for them, then yes.
That myth coming from a Bruins fan is not surprising though. Big bad Bruins and all, right? That is why I never was a fan of the Bruins.
Less games, way more practice. Or do you think that superior soviet hockey came from sitting around, staring at the walls? Every foreigner who played in the KHL to this day know how much tougher russian pre-season conditioning is. And that is nothing compared to what it was like back in the day. They sure did not went through a 82 games regular season grind. That does not mean it was in any way easier for them.
Training hard and practicing hard aren't the same as getting your head smashed through the boards on a hit from behind from Dave Schultz.
If Russia was so tough then why did they cry every game? Why did they quit against Philly. Watch that game; there's nothing that didn't happen every single night in the NHL. They just couldn't believe the NHL was as tough as it was.
1987 Canada Cup was rigged, the series winning goal came after a hook that couldn't be more obvious wasn't called against Canada. Soviets were better in every way, the only reason why Canada could hang on is because of ridiculous officiating. Soviets mostly outplayed the best players in Canadian history. And yes, Makarov was unbelievable - no winger in Canadian history was as good as him. And we are not even talking about Kharlamov who could only be stopped in 1972 with the worst kind of dirty play.
Yawn. Still probably one of the two or three players to ever play the game. And only one of them might be a Canadian. Who cares what he did in the NA league as a 30+?
Bure is one of the greats for sure, but not really a comparable to Makarov. Bure was a brilliant goal scorer, but never thought the game as Makarov did or was as complete a player as Makarov was.
LOL Those myths
You know that Canadians always whined, right? They did not like the ice, they did not like the refs and they were such superstars who always knew best...
It was political, both sides wanted to win. It's pointless to argue who argued more. It is just complete nonsense to believe those absurd strories about "soft" Russians or "soft" soviet league.
BruinsBtn
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That's insanity. NHL teams had +2000 penalty minutes. Some Russian teams 200 PIM in a season.
The Greatest player in the history of hockey had to carry a goon on his line. Every team in the league had at least a few guys out there looking to hurt someone.
It's indisputable that the NHL was 10x tougher than the Soviet league.
There's no myth. How many Russians came over in the 90s then went right back home?
gwh
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Punching facewise? Sure.
Level of play in the 50-60s 6 team beerleague vs Russian state run program with "possible rampart steroid use" and full time pro athletes is a no brainer though.
I can't comment on seeing him play but it's probably worth re-iterating the Soviet training style, that the best players were selected while young then trained together in 5 man units for like 364 days a year. If you're putting these Soviet players against an improvised team of Canadian NHLers then I'd imagine you're getting the much greater whole vs a sum of parts. With these guys being the top Russians I'd imagine watching them must have been like watching 5 Sedin's on the ice at the same time.
Take them out of that system though and look at them as individuals and they're more likely to be just regular star players.
Seems like you miss those days? Watching pylons glide around the ice, watching truly dim players do neanderthalian things on and on?
Number of penalty minutes is not a thing to be proud of. Not when a lot of those came from unnecessary penalties.
HespelerGreenFlash
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Dennis Bonvie
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Soviet and NHL teams played 57 games in the 70s and 80s. And here you are focusing on 1 game, the rare outlier, as the true representation of the NHL. You're not fooling anybody.
Soviet teams had no problem competing physically with the NHL.
gwh
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This guy doesn't know what a state sports program looks like.
1. Scour every school for the best talent
2. Beat them with sticks to make them train hard.
3. Feed them with medicines from the state PED program.
4... profit.
Look into soviet gymnast programs or track/field. There is no reason to believe ice hockey was any better, despite nobody talking about it.
In the NHL players had to have summer jobs until 70s because the teams wouldn't pay in the summer.
Canucks fan I presume?
Revisionist history for Messier to be omitted.
The guy won 2 Harts over a peak Lemieux and Gretzky. If you question how that happened, you were obviously too young and never watched.
He also won a Conn Smyth over Gretzky. Again you needed to watch that finals against the Islanders to understand. No boxscore will explain what an absolute menace Messier was. He was an intimidating force that would elbow you in the throat, fight, and then score the game winning goal. The teams he played on seemed 6" taller, and the opposing teams had their butts collectively clenched.
Hockey games are not won by statistical analysis and spreadsheets. Hockey games are won on the ice and Messiers intimidating presence on the ice lead to wins and cups.
Even if he was a dirty head-hunting piece of shit.
Makarov is the greatest Russian player of all time brother. He played against NHL all-stars and team Canada and NHL teams many times throughout the late 70s and the entire 80s. Besides Gretzky and Lemieux nobody was better than him. All of the old Soviet players failed in the NHL because they were forced to play a different style of hockey. Once Bowman allowed them to play their thing you had 35 year old Larionov and 37 year old Fetisov have their best season in the NHL.
Look at Makarov here behind maybe the greatest shorthanded goal of all time against this line: Gretzky Lemieux Messier Bourque Coffey
Krutov only had 30 points in the NHL but outscored virtually every Canadian except for the GOATs in the 80s. Here are his numbers at the Juniors he played against Kurri.
All of the 80s Euro legends (Kurry, Stastny) in the NHL were getting their asses smashed just a few years prior by the Soviets.
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