Red Sox/MLB Hot Stove Part 2: Lockout Edition - 6 games lost, 156 to go

[N o o d l e s]

I never thought of Jimmy Rollins for one second a HOF watching him

Wagner Was one of the best relievers ever and that position is understaffed and undervalued

Wagner to me is a HOF

I never thought watching Jeff Kent was a HOF anf wouldn’t vote in

Richie aka Dick Allen and Dave Parker were freaking super stars first half of careers but I feel they let me down

Tim Raines sorta the same and like Parker had drug problems but he hung around and compiled

he’s a tough call but I went yes because in my lifetime he’s right there with Henderson as the most dangerous lead off hitters - yet his second half of career was so meh

Andrew Jones? Larry Walker? Jim Edmonds ? Reggie Smith even just so many ways to go yes or know

I don’t think Walker should be in because of his splits and lack of games played per season yet I think Walker should be in because of the batting titles the defense his speed

You got to probably give him the benefit of the doubt and in the end you have to put him in those 5 years of his best is iconic

also maybe because I was a wide eyed kid I always looked at Steve Garvey as a HOF

we are talking Steve Garvey

analytics kills him but before I ever heard the word he was a baseball God - he was the Dodgers and Mr Southern California

I meant Visquel my phone auto corrected to Vasquez lmao

 

[EverettMike]

I meant Visquel my phone auto corrected to Vasquez lmao

That's okay. Neither Omar should get in.

 

[CDJ]

Vizquel is a worse guy than Schilling

 

[McGarnagle]

Vizquel is a worse guy than Schilling

100%

Curt is obnoxious and holds views that bother a lot of people, but he never (allegedly) molested an autistic bat boy. So yeah.

 

[CDJ]

100%

Curt is obnoxious and holds views that bother a lot of people, but he never (allegedly) molested an autistic bat boy. So yeah.

got some DV claims on top of that. Bad Omar!

 

[LouJersey]

100%

Curt is obnoxious and holds views that bother a lot of people, but he never (allegedly) molested an autistic bat boy. So yeah.

holatious they hold Schillinhs views against him yet have a boat load of racists in the Hall

 

[EverettMike]

holatious they hold Schillinhs views against him yet have a boat load of racists in the Hall

The funny thing about all of it is that Schilling still gets a significant majority of votes. All this despite the fact he doesn't have a clear cut case. His regular season numbers don't really stack up. Obviously he is rightfully buoyed by his playoff performance, but it's completely legitimate not to vote for him based on nothing but performance.

No way to prove this, but my bet is that for every vote he "loses" because of his views, he gains some from voters who specifically are worried they might be letting their personal views influence them. So they vote "yay" as a way to overcorrect themselves.

Meanwhile, if he was a milquetoast human being I think he'd be in the exact same spot! Right on the cusp.

 

[08SeaBass08]

The funny thing about all of it is that Schilling still gets a significant majority of votes. All this despite the fact he doesn't have a clear cut case. His regular season numbers don't really stack up. Obviously he is rightfully buoyed by his playoff performance, but it's completely legitimate not to vote for him based on nothing but performance.

No way to prove this, but my bet is that for every vote he "loses" because of his views, he gains some from voters who specifically are worried they might be letting their personal views influence them. So they vote "yay" as a way to overcorrect themselves.

Meanwhile, if he was a milquetoast human being I think he'd be in the exact same spot! Right on the cusp.

Absolutely on all accounts. Moreover, is there actually any evidence that anyone has left him off their ballot for his political views? Or is it just self-imagined victimization?

 

[EverettMike]

Absolutely on all accounts. Moreover, is there actually any evidence that anyone has left him off their ballot for his political views? Or is it just self-imagined victimization?

Last year a few people who had voted for him finally decided they could no longer support honoring him. But overall I don't think his vote percentage changed much.

 

[08SeaBass08]

Last year a few people who had voted for him finally decided they could no longer support honoring him. But overall I don't think his vote percentage changed much.

I was definitely unaware of that change last year. My case against Schilling's candidacy has always been lack of regular season exceptionalism. Nothing stands out. Postseason, sure, but he never stood out getting there. Plenty of likable people in a similar situation.

 

[Gator Mike]

The funny thing about all of it is that Schilling still gets a significant majority of votes. All this despite the fact he doesn't have a clear cut case. His regular season numbers don't really stack up. Obviously he is rightfully buoyed by his playoff performance, but it's completely legitimate not to vote for him based on nothing but performance.

My case against Schilling's candidacy has always been lack of regular season exceptionalism. Nothing stands out. Postseason, sure, but he never stood out getting there.

Devil's advocate...

Higher Career WAR than Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, and Roy Halliday.

Better Career Strikeouts/9 than Roger Clemens.

15th All-Time in career strikeouts.

Better Career Adjusted ERA+ than Smoltz, Glavine, and Mike Mussina.

Better career FIP than Smoltz, Halliday, Mussina, and Greg Maddux.

18th All-Time in Adjusted Pitching Wins.

23rd All-Time in Win Probability Added.

By one measure, he's the 21st most valuable starting pitcher of all-time, and the only pitcher ahead of him who's not in the Hall of Fame is Roger Clemens.

 

[EverettMike]

Devil's advocate...

Higher Career WAR than Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, and Roy Halliday.

Better Career Strikeouts/9 than Roger Clemens.

15th All-Time in career strikeouts.

Better Career Adjusted ERA+ than Smoltz, Glavine, and Mike Mussina.

Better career FIP than Smoltz, Halliday, Mussina, and Greg Maddux.

18th All-Time in Adjusted Pitching Wins.

23rd All-Time in Win Probability Added.

By one measure, he's the 21st most valuable starting pitcher of all-time, and the only pitcher ahead of him who's not in the Hall of Fame is Roger Clemens.

Who are you playing Devil's Advocate to though? He has a worthy case, but it's not a slam dunk. Which I feel like getting 72% of the vote reflects.

 

[EverettMike]

"Falling 16 votes short was pitcher Curt Schilling, whose total of 285 in his ninth and next to last year of eligibility represented 71.1 percent of the electorate. Schilling was 20 votes shy of election at 70 percent in 2020 when shortstop Derek Jeter and outfielder Larry Walker were elected."

Schilling's vote total and percentage went up last year. He reacted like a big f***ing baby. Shocker.

No candidates elected to Hall of Fame for 2021 – BBWAA

 

[08SeaBass08]

Devil's advocate...

Higher Career WAR than Tom Glavine, John Smoltz, and Roy Halliday.

Better Career Strikeouts/9 than Roger Clemens.

15th All-Time in career strikeouts.

Better Career Adjusted ERA+ than Smoltz, Glavine, and Mike Mussina.

Better career FIP than Smoltz, Halliday, Mussina, and Greg Maddux.

18th All-Time in Adjusted Pitching Wins.

23rd All-Time in Win Probability Added.

By one measure, he's the 21st most valuable starting pitcher of all-time, and the only pitcher ahead of him who's not in the Hall of Fame is Roger Clemens.

I don't put Halladay or Mussina in, either. Glavine, Smoltz I'm on the fence about, but lean towards "yes" on Glavine (he'll probably be MLB's last 300 game winner). Maddux makes it all day, every day.

 

[Gator Mike]

Who are you playing Devil's Advocate to though? He has a worthy case, but it's not a slam dunk. Which I feel like getting 72% of the vote reflects.

I tend to agree, but this was more of an argument against the whole "the regular season numbers don't stack up" narrative.

I don't put Halladay or Mussina in, either. Glavine, Smoltz I'm on the fence about, but lean towards "yes" on Glavine (he'll probably be MLB's last 300 game winner). Maddux makes it all day, every day.

Halliday and Mussina are Schilling's contemporaries, and they're already in the Hall of Fame.

Again, I think it's difficult for the electorate to say guys like Halliday and Mussina and Glavine and Smoltz are worthy, but Schilling isn't. And that's just based on regular season numbers, leaving out Schilling's post-season heroics.

 

[EverettMike]

I tend to agree, but this was more of an argument against the whole "the regular season numbers don't stack up" narrative.

Without his post-season resume he would never have even crossed the 50% mark. The regular season numbers are good, but not necessarily Hall of Fame worthy.

 

[08SeaBass08]

I tend to agree, but this was more of an argument against the whole "the regular season numbers don't stack up" narrative.


Halliday and Mussina are Schilling's contemporaries, and they're already in the Hall of Fame.

Again, I think it's difficult for the electorate to say guys like Halliday and Mussina and Glavine and Smoltz are worthy, but Schilling isn't. And that's just based on regular season numbers, leaving out Schilling's post-season heroics.

I know Halladay and Mussina are already in. I don't think they should be, either. But if Bert Blyleven is, then who shouldn't be?

 

[Chevalier du Clavier]

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

The funny thing about all of it is that Schilling still gets a significant majority of votes. All this despite the fact he doesn't have a clear cut case. His regular season numbers don't really stack up. Obviously he is rightfully buoyed by his playoff performance, but it's completely legitimate not to vote for him based on nothing but performance.

No way to prove this, but my bet is that for every vote he "loses" because of his views, he gains some from voters who specifically are worried they might be letting their personal views influence them. So they vote "yay" as a way to overcorrect themselves.

Meanwhile, if he was a milquetoast human being I think he'd be in the exact same spot! Right on the cusp.

Schilling's regular season numbers are more HOF level than it appears. He lacks the wins, but that's not his fault.

9x Top 10 ERA
11x Top 10 WHIP
11x Top 10 WAR
9x Top 10 K
10x Top 10 Adj ERA+

His regular season is Felix Hernandez without the 1 Cy Young (he does have 3 2nd place finishes)

 

[McGarnagle]

Mussina and Schilling are good comparables, and Moose got in. He was more durable, about 300 more IP in 2 fewer years. ERA/WHIP are virtually the same though, Schill has 6 ASGs to Mussina's 5, and Curt has the postseason heroism whereas Mussina never got the ring despite going to NY to chase one (poor bastard pitched there from 2001-2008. One year earlier or one year later and he would've had one). Mussina's postseason record is all over the place, he seemed to do his best work when his teams lost - he was absolutely elite in 1997, and was really good in the 2003 WS. But he was passable at best the rest of the time, compared to Schilling who was a gloryhound who rose to the big stage. I think Mussina's regular season advantage and Schilling's postseason advantage cancel each other out. Otherwise the difference between them in the voters' eyes is Mussina's gold gloves and Schilling's twitter account.

 

[22Brad Park]

Schilling's regular season numbers are more HOF level than it appears. He lacks the wins, but that's not his fault.

9x Top 10 ERA
11x Top 10 WHIP
11x Top 10 WAR
9x Top 10 K
10x Top 10 Adj ERA+

His regular season is Felix Hernandez without the 1 Cy Young (he does have 3 2nd place finishes)

I know we are talking pitchers here( Schilling) but since your talking deserving of Hall and waiting ,I could not help but think of Garvey and Dale Murphy .If memory is correct Murphy had back to back MVPs and hit more Homer's then Rice and Tony Perez .Just spitballing here to show others more deserving have waited just as long.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I know we are talking pitchers here( Schilling) but since your talking deserving of Hall and waiting ,I could not help but think of Garvey and Dale Murphy .If memory is correct Murphy had back to back MVPs and hit more Homer's then Rice and Tony Perez .Just spitballing here to show others more deserving have waited just as long.

Agreed on Murphy and Garvey, they're much more deserving than the recent awful Veterans Committee choices. In addition to those 2 MVPs, Murphy had 5 straight gold gloves and 4 silver sluggers.

It may be a homer vote, but I think Pedroia should be a HOF'er. He wont because they'll hold his short (albeit due to injuries) career against him. The man won every trophy possible (MVP, ROY, WS, GG, SS) at 2nd base. That list is extremely short

 

[McGarnagle]

I know we are talking pitchers here( Schilling) but since your talking deserving of Hall and waiting ,I could not help but think of Garvey and Dale Murphy .If memory is correct Murphy had back to back MVPs and hit more Homer's then Rice and Tony Perez .Just spitballing here to show others more deserving have waited just as long.

I'm surprised Garvey never got more support considering he was a media darling in LA for all those years. But he's borderline at best. Murphy is a really good player who just happened to be stuck on some bad teams for a decade, but statistically he's got a good case.

 

[22Brad Park]

Agreed on Murphy and Garvey, they're much more deserving than the recent awful Veterans Committee choices. In addition to those 2 MVPs, Murphy had 5 straight gold gloves and 4 silver sluggers.

It may be a homer vote, but I think Pedroia should be a HOF'er. He wont because they'll hold his short (albeit due to injuries) career against him. The man won every trophy possible (MVP, ROY, WS, GG, SS) at 2nd base. That list is extremely short

Yes, they will hold that short career against Pedroia.
Thurman Munson death proved that.

 

[EverettMike]

Kirby Puckett got in despite an injury-shortened career that left his counting stats light. So there is some hope for Pedroia. His position really helps him. Still think he's a long shot.