Holl or Dermott

[djdev]

These last two playoffs without Muzzin, Holl already exposed himself.

reese maholl.

 

[GoLeafsGo96]

I keep Dermott and play him on the right side with Muzz. Holl is fine, but hes a product of Muzzin, something I think Dermott is more than capable of being for 500k less with potential to be better than Holl given age.

I would protect 8 skaters, expose Holl and Kerfoot and let Seattle take their pick.

 

[ponder]

I keep Dermott and play him on the right side with Muzz. Holl is fine, but hes a product of Muzzin, something I think Dermott is more than capable of being for 500k less with potential to be better than Holl given age.

I would protect 8 skaters, expose Holl and Kerfoot and let Seattle take their pick.

I actually think there’s a pretty decent chance Seattle take Kerfoot. They should have lots of good D options in the expansion draft, but few quality C options, Kerfoot could be pretty attractive.

And agreed, I’ve come around to “protect Dermott, expose Holl.” Holl is a touch better than Dermott right now, but it’s close, and he’s 5 years older and $500K more expensive. Plus, they’re both signed for 2 more years, but Dermott is still an RFA after, while Holl is a UFA.

Protecting Dermott seems like the smart move, I continue to believe that Dermott has considerable untapped upside.

 

[IPS]

These last two playoffs without Muzzin, Holl already exposed himself.

It's a strange case with Holl. He starts off the first ~25 games of the year looking like one of the best shutdown D in the league but falls off big time as the season goes on.

 

[IPS]

The fact that Travis can play both sides makes him even more valuable.

I wouldn't say that - he looks pretty shaky on the right side.

 

[Stonehands1990]

I keep Dermott and play him on the right side with Muzz. Holl is fine, but hes a product of Muzzin, something I think Dermott is more than capable of being for 500k less with potential to be better than Holl given age.

I would protect 8 skaters, expose Holl and Kerfoot and let Seattle take their pick.

This is exactly where I’m at. Furthermore if they take Kerfoot I’m probably still flipping Holl for futures or a winger retained. Dermott can bring what Holl brings beside Muzzin. He’s younger, cheaper and has a lot more upside

 

[The Iceman]

Why would Dermott re-sign without the promise that he will be protected? Dubas will expose Holl.

P.S. Personally I've lost patience with Dermott. He's turned into a marginal defender. He's too frantic and loose-bodied. He's never filled out. At least he isn't making ridiculous money.

Dermott could either sign as a RFA or demand a trade. Why demand a trade?
Not really a lot of options.

 

[al secord]

I'm pretty sure the Kraken can find a cheaper Kerfoot. You expose Holl. I believe Dermott still has more to show.

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

I'm pretty sure the Kraken can find a cheaper Kerfoot. You expose Holl. I believe Dermott still has more to show.

So, you would expose a player that plays in your top 4 (on the first good defensive team the Leafs have had in forever) and replace him with a guy that was a healthy scratch, and never plays in the top 4? Why? What has he done to warrant any kind of optimism to this level? If he was better than he has been showing, don’t you think he would have shown that by now? He’s not a rookie. He’s not even really a “young” player anymore. He’s just another dude that’s out there.

 

[Bomber0104]

You'd be dumb to not dangle Holl.

Sorry but every little bit of capspace is precious to this team right now.

Holl is a dime a dozen player that's completely reliant on his d-partner for any success he has.

Dermott is coming in cheaper and still has untapped potential and a bit of bite to his game.

Exactly what ails this team and not what you want to move away from.

Knowing Dubas though, he won't see it that way..

 

[Stephen]

It's kind of annoying to see all this talk about internal competition and forcing guys to earn jobs is just empty talk. Dermott has had two years to steal Holl's job, but lost his own to Sandin. If he can't develop into a top4 defenseman with someone breathing down his neck, why do we think he's the kind of guy we need? We need players who thrive under pressure, not take steps back when things get tough. God knows we have enough of those in our forwards.

The problem is we don't really have a coherent path of promotion based on merit (coupled with a world changing pandemic).

Dermott didn't exactly lose his spot to Sandin, who didn't exactly earn his spot the normal way through stellar AHL play. He played one game there and missed time to injury and then got a look because management wanted a look. You can also see how Sandin got time in Dermott's spot, but also took Rielly's spot on the powerplay, and then was yo-yo'ed off the roster entirely.

 

[Stephen]

You'd be dumb to not dangle Holl.

Sorry but every little bit of capspace is precious to this team right now.

Holl is a dime a dozen player that's completely reliant on his d-partner for any success he has.

Dermott is coming in cheaper and still has untapped potential and a bit of bite to his game.

Exactly what ails this team and not what you want to move away from.

Knowing Dubas though, he won't see it that way..

Holl isn't anything really special. He's played above expectations over the past couple of years but in an ideal world, you'd probably have enough room to upgrade from him to a David Savard, or Timothy Liljegren gives you a first round quality prospect via promotion on the RD side. What makes him a unicorn in Toronto is we don't really invest in or seem to value these two way defensemen with size anywhere in our system, so you're not likely to find one internally any time soon.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Expose Holl because Dermott is cheaper.

Expose Dermott because, whether under Lou or Dubas, they seem to put a premium on right-handed D.

To sum up: I have no clue what they're going to do.

 

[Stephen]

Expose Holl because Dermott is cheaper.

Expose Dermott because, whether under Lou or Dubas, they seem to put a premium on right-handed D.

To sum up: I have no clue what they're going to do.

Knowing how the Leaf script goes, they will make the move that feels the most rationally thought out at the time but will somehow blow up in their faces.

If we lose Kerfoot he'll blossom into the next William Karlsson. If we lose Justin Holl, he just keeps growing into a Jeff Petry and if we lose Travis Dermott he'll turn into a Mackenzie Weegar overnight breakout. If we give up a third round pick for Seattle to take some riff raff, that third round pick is going in the Hockey Hall of Fame.

 

[Bomber0104]

Holl isn't anything really special. He's played above expectations over the past couple of years but in an ideal world, you'd probably have enough room to upgrade from him to a David Savard, or Timothy Liljegren gives you a first round quality prospect via promotion on the RD side. What makes him a unicorn in Toronto is we don't really invest in or seem to value these two way defensemen with size anywhere in our system, so you're not likely to find one internally any time soon.

Ultimately this isn't going to be a make or break decision.

We'll see how it turns out but the gambler side of me goes with the younger, cheaper, upside option most of the time.

There's always a cost-opportunity in erring that way.

 

[Stephen]

Ultimately this isn't going to be a make or break decision.

We'll see how it turns out but the gambler side of me goes with the younger, cheaper, upside option most of the time.

There's always a cost-opportunity in erring that way.

Yeah it’s just a joke on how the Sparks McBackup issue blew up in Toronto’s face in such an unexpected way.

 

[Bomber0104]

Yeah it’s just a joke on how the Sparks McBackup issue blew up in Toronto’s face in such an unexpected way.

If Holl was playing as well as McBackup at the time, that'd be one thing.

He isn't though.

He was a non-factor in 60% of the regular season and playoffs.

Not much different from last season too after a good start...

 

[AcerComputer]

I'm pretty sure the Kraken can find a cheaper Kerfoot. You expose Holl. I believe Dermott still has more to show.

There is hardly any centre options in the expansion draft to begin with yet alone cheaper options, and not that many in FA, and those will be more expensive.

 

[AcerComputer]

I think I have been very much Pro-Protect Holl. 6' 4" right shot dmen, making $2m, playing in the top 4. But after reading some of the comments, it does make more sense to keep Dermott, because of age, caphit over next 2 years is lower. That said if the difference is that close, then they don't need to protect Holl using a 4-4-1. They should go out an acquire some Forwards that are available pre-expansion draft at a cheaper price, and go 7-3-1

 

[Jozay]

They should expose Holl.

 

[ACC1224]

Pretty even divide, I guess that was expected.

 

[ChickenMcNugget]

Protect Holl, he is a better player now without question. Dermott has regressed or stayed the same every year since 2014-15. I dont see how people expect him to suddenly get better. It wouldnt be a surprise if Dermott gets pushed out by Sandin this year.

 

[Mess]

Ultimately this isn't going to be a make or break decision.

We'll see how it turns out but the gambler side of me goes with the younger, cheaper, upside option most of the time.

There's always a cost-opportunity in erring that way.

Its a hard choice because the correct answer should really be neither, if your team has Cup aspirations, as it wouldn't come down to this.

So protecting a 3rd pairing Dman who posted 6 points, or a 30 year old journey man who should be a 3rd pairing guy comes down to a coin flip really. Where I agree might as well keep the younger and cheaper guy because Leafs need all the cap space they can muster up.

What this thread says to me, is there is this perception that Leafs are a deep team and Cup contender, yet the REAL reason why we're forced to be picking between Dermott and Holl in the first place is that the Leafs don't even have 7 forwards they could or are worthy of protecting and use the 7-3-1 option and protect neither Dermott nor Holl. So the Leafs are essentially forced with no other option to protect one or the other because 4-4-1 is their only format option.

Its the core 4 forwards and Kerfoot up front that's it, and Kerfoot might then be the one player selected thinning the forwards ranks even further as Seattle might not want either one the Leafs expose on D. This thread however really exposes further Leafs cap management issues and how it impacts the team and its decision making.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm surprised this is so close. It's an easy decision for me. I think Holl has come full circle and developed into a rounded #4 defenseman. I think the Leafs were a good defensive team this year finally and Holl's development was a big reason why they were so good. He is good defensively and on the PK and can be used on the first unit. He became a very physical player this season and he has ideal size, he should be good for a fight or two per season and unless the Leafs ice a grittier group he will be a hit leader on the team. He is also a right handed shot. Only Liljegren behind him is a rightie. It would be best to not force a situation where they have only one or no right handed players on the d-core.

I see Sandin and Liljegren coming up. They have developed long enough. Sandin is better than Dermott and he took games from him in the playoffs. That's just a sign of things to come. I imagine Sandin plays over him next season. I have him splitting games with Liljegren. If he somehow manages to not get traded for draft picks after the expansion draft.

 

[ToneDog]

I'd like to sign Oleksiak and Mike Reilly and move Rielly. We have too many similar small, soft sized moving dmen and I think we need to add some size and nastiness to compete in the playoffs. That is how you make your team more difficult to play against.

Oleksiak Brodie
Muzzin Hall
Reilly/Hutton Bogo

You now have the option to shop your excess dmen to beef up your bottom 6 and goaltending.