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Holl or Dermott

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Who do the Leafs expose?

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ToneDog said:
Leaving Kerfoot unprotected indicates that the Leafs think they can sign a cheaper/better UFA, otherwise you protect him.
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Oh there you go attributing logic to TML Management decisions again. Have you learned nothing? :sarcasm:
 
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diehardleafsfan9878 said:
You might want to have a deeper dive at the PK numbers. The Leafs PK with Holl and Muzzin are top 10 in PK%, WITHOUT Andersen in net. When Andersen has been in net, the PK plummets.
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When Andersen went down with an injury, the Leafs were 22nd in the league. After that and until the end of the season, the Leafs were 18th and they finished the entire season in 24th place. You're trying very hard to manipulate the numbers here.

January 13th-March 19th
NHL Stats
March 20th-May 14th
NHL Stats
 
I would certainly move on from Holl who is a journey Dman about the turn 30.

I'm not certain Ronnie Francis takes the bait if he is exposed.

Kraken will take the youngest player or the one with the most potential or the one that has the greatest trade value.
 
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Holl is the better player now, Dermott still has the potential factor (though time is getting a bit short as to whether he'll ever reach that) but has consistency issues.

Tough decision.
 
LeafGrief said:
Expose Dermott, keep Holl.

Holl has played as a top4 defenseman and done well since he broke into the league. Dermott has done very well on our third pair and looked okay enough in the few stretches of top4 minutes that he's played for us. But he was our #6 this year, taking a step back and ultimately losing his job to Sandin. Justin Holl is a #4D making 2m with term, Dermott is a #6D making 1.5m with the same term. The Leafs are looking to compete, keep the better player, it's pretty simple.

Dermott has had two years to steal Holl's job, but the gap has only grown between the two. I still think Dermott can be a top4 defenseman in the league for a long time, but we're comparing him to a guy who IS a top4 defenseman right now. The only way I see this discussion being relevant would be if Holl cost quite a bit more.
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We watched the same guy right? Holl had spurts but by and large was carried by Muzzin…are you really gonna tell me Muzzin couldn’t shelter a better skating more physical player in dermott? Plus he’s what 5 years younger than Holl and signed for 500K cheaper…give me Dermott every day of the week and let the kid actually play without fear of demotion for any error same as Holl got (cause he was absolutely horrendous at times)
 
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I don't know what the answer is, I'm just confident we'll make the wrong decision.
 
hockeynorth said:
I would try to move on from Holl, I think Dermott can replace him
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I don't think Dermott can replace Holl but might be one of those guys you want to hang onto to see if they have a breakout. We've seen guys like Mackenzie Weegar bumble along for a few years and then all of a sudden they're pretty good.
 
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JayfromNB1219 said:
We watched the same guy right? Holl had spurts but by and large was carried by Muzzin…are you really gonna tell me Muzzin couldn’t shelter a better skating more physical player in dermott? Plus he’s what 5 years younger than Holl and signed for 500K cheaper…give me Dermott every day of the week and let the kid actually play without fear of demotion for any error same as Holl got (cause he was absolutely horrendous at times)
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Idk if we watched the same guys, because I watched Dermott do well enough in 13 minutes of ice time every night, but was a healthy scratch four games in the playoffs and cost us one of the three he played. We've been waiting for the guy to take the next step for years, posting in all sorts of threads about how he needs to take the next step, but hasn't. I've been writing that I like him for all of those four years, but the player that he actually is today matters when the Leafs are trying to make decisions based on today.

Like, okay sure Holl is the guy riding shotgun on the second pairing, but he was riding on the second pairing and has positive metrics against tough matchups with zero sheltering. I don't really care if he's getting carried, he's making 2m and doing the job of a #4D. Why does everyone want to try our #7 in that spot to save 500k? We spent 10 years looking for a cheap RHD who can play top4 minutes, and now we've finally got one. We should be clinging on to Holl for dear life, not tossing him in the trash.

It's kind of annoying to see all this talk about internal competition and forcing guys to earn jobs is just empty talk. Dermott has had two years to steal Holl's job, but lost his own to Sandin. If he can't develop into a top4 defenseman with someone breathing down his neck, why do we think he's the kind of guy we need? We need players who thrive under pressure, not take steps back when things get tough. God knows we have enough of those in our forwards.
 
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LeafGrief said:
Idk if we watched the same guys, because I watched Dermott do well enough in 13 minutes of ice time every night, but was a healthy scratch four games in the playoffs and cost us one of the three he played. We've been waiting for the guy to take the next step for years, posting in all sorts of threads about how he needs to take the next step, but hasn't. I've been writing that I like him for all of those four years, but the player that he actually is today matters when the Leafs are trying to make decisions based on today.

Like, okay sure Holl is the guy riding shotgun on the second pairing, but he was riding on the second pairing and has positive metrics against tough matchups with zero sheltering. I don't really care if he's getting carried, he's making 2m and doing the job of a #4D. Why does everyone want to try our #7 in that spot to save 500k? We spent 10 years looking for a cheap RHD who can play top4 minutes, and now we've finally got one. We should be clinging on to Holl for dear life, not tossing him in the trash.

It's kind of annoying to see all this talk about internal competition and forcing guys to earn jobs is just empty talk. Dermott has had two years to steal Holl's job, but lost his own to Sandin. If he can't develop into a top4 defenseman with someone breathing down his neck, why do we think he's the kind of guy we need? We need players who thrive under pressure, not take steps back when things get tough. God knows we have enough of those in our forwards.
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See I don’t think Holl is top 4 he got tossed in there as management seems to love him…he solid maybe a solid #5 but I think dermott if actually given an extended run with the leash removed will grow a lot faster than we think, it must be tough to play your game when your coach is basically looking for reasons to take you out of the lineup…also I think Lillegren( I know I butchered his name) needs to be given an extended run with the big team and told play your game we won’t be removing you from the lineup for a mistake here or there
 
Now that Dermott is cheaper and controlled for an extra year, it's gotta be Holl.
 
JayfromNB1219 said:
See I don’t think Holl is top 4 he got tossed in there as management seems to love him…he solid maybe a solid #5 but I think dermott if actually given an extended run with the leash removed will grow a lot faster than we think, it must be tough to play your game when your coach is basically looking for reasons to take you out of the lineup…also I think Lillegren( I know I butchered his name) needs to be given an extended run with the big team and told play your game we won’t be removing you from the lineup for a mistake here or there
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Man, this just seems like a whole lot of making excuses for a guy who can't force his way up the lineup. Dermott has had two years and two coaches to pass Holl in the lineup and he hasn't done it. Why are we trying to gift guys minutes by getting rid of a top4 defenseman?

Dermott has been a healthy scratch maybe a dozen times since he made the team full time. Idk what your narrative is about getting removed from the lineup, but it hasn't applied to Dermott other than the final few weeks of the regular season and the playoffs.

And to be very clear, none of what I am saying is meant to be a real dig at Dermott. I like Dermott. I think Dubas and Keefe will be happy to have him on the blueline next year. But when we're talking about exposing our #4D who makes 2m to try and make space for Dermott to blossom, I think that's crazy talk. It's making excuses for Dermott and trying to gift him opportunities that he couldn't seize himself. If Holl was 33, or cost 4m, or Dermott was still 21, we'd keep Dermott. But giving up a 2m 29y/o top4 defenseman because you want to get a good look at your #7 is rebuilding team nonsense and we're past that point.
 
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ToneDog said:
Actually if we can lose/move both Holl and Kerfoot. I wouldn't mind:

Rielly Brodie
Muzzin Dermott
Oleksiak Bogo
Sandin Lily
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That is an excellent D; better than this years version. If Kerfoot is taken in the expansion draft this year (foregone conclusion IMHO with a lack of centers and good forwards available in the ED) Holl is very likely to be traded.
 
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New Liskeard said:
That is an excellent D; better than this years version. If Kerfoot is taken in the expansion draft this year (foregone conclusion IMHO with a lack of centers and good forwards available in the ED) Holl is very likely to be traded.
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The fact that Travis can play both sides makes him even more valuable.
 
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Expose Holl...he's turning 30 years old while Dermott will only be 25 years old...I think the Kraken will take Dermott if he's exposed.
 
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never have i ever been a holl fan. even with his great start this past year. id prefer we try something else.
tbh i prefer if we move on from both, but dermott still has a chance to be more than he is now at least.
 
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