Post-Game Talk: Holl and Keefe hand Tampa the victory

[57 Years No Cup]

Victoria is an awesome place.

Victoria is the Karen capital of Canada.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

To somehow think this core is contaminated, one must step back and examine their rationality. How do high value players spoil in a group exactly? More likely that the mechanics of the team has been mismanaged.
Since Stamkos was drafted and before the bolts won their first cup, they missed the playoffs 4 times and they had to wait 11 years for cup #1.
You think it was prudent for the lightning to jetison it's core early? Who does that? Only couch warrior have the convenience of throwing out your best players when there are zero consequences for their decisions. I've seen first round wins. I don't give a f*** about first round wins. I want a cup and dont really give a shit if younger people are humiliated that their team isn't winning the first round fast enough. I had to tolerate years with guys like Paul Higgins on the roster. Believe me...it can and has been much worse.
I would suggest that everyone who is offended by the players of this team, walk away. You don't have the intestinal fortitude to be a long term fan.
I am going to continue to point to the low hanging fruit of the team for improvement because that is what pragmatist problem solvers do. They don't take a wreckingball to a house if they don't like the design or function of a room. They renovate and improve.

Agree with everything you said.

I think most do.

I think you do have to trade Nylander, Matthews or Marner.

JT can’t move, but Dubas has worked magic before.

You need to build tough, talented and complimentary pieces around Matthews if you keep him.

Same with Nylander or Marner.

For sure you aren’t getting all 3.

Build the right guys with JT and the line will be right.

Yes. This will be a huge retool. Dubas firing Keefe and Holl will be a nice start.
Simmonds is a waste of space.
All playoff goons can score. He can’t.

 

[BraveCanadian]

It's a symptom of the play style. The Leafs are a possession team, the D are expected to make a tape to tape pass not just dump it out. When the opposition takes away the passing options they need to either delay, make a difficult pass or beat the forchecker. With Sandin gone and Lilly in the press box Rielly is really the only D capable of doing those things with regularity.

And that's why for guys with limited skill (Holl and Schenn in particular) you see them go from having time and space to them holding onto the puck until either losing it or being forced to reverse the puck along the boards.

Yes they hang on to the puck to their own detriment a lot of the time. Weak passes up the boards to our soft wingers who don't enforce their position and get the puck, or lazy (dangerous) cross-ice passes in their own zone to keep possession.

It drives me literally crazy.. especially when they are under pressure for a while and still won't just simply clear it.

Pat Burns had it right: "If in doubt, off the glass and out."

 

[BraveCanadian]

That's the problem, they still think that the playoffs is just an extension of the regular season.

God I literally hate their attitudes.. they should be pissed off they let an opponent as dangerous as a 3 time Stanley Cup Finalist back up off the mat.. but they just don't care.

I love Marner, but he said something along the lines of "we had a good 3rd period we just have to try and do a full 60" and I'm like you guys haven't played a full 60 in the series. You're the one on the ice.. you don't try to make a better effort.. you do it. That is something the players have full control over and it is sad that they appear to be so laissez faire about everything.

Confident is one thing. Being upbeat after being outplayed for 3 straight games is not what I want or expect from people who want to WIN.

 

[ToneDog]

The streak continues.

2018 Game #7 Boston 7 - Toronto 4

Marleau Gardiner, Nylander
Marleau Marner
Dermott Polak, Nylander
Kappanen

2019 Game #6 Boston 4 - Toronto 2

Rielly Nylander, Marleau,
Matthews Gardiner, Dermott

2019 Game #7 Boston 5 - Toronto 1

Tavares Ennis

2020 Game #5 Columbus 2 - Toronto 0

2021 Game #5 Montreal 4 - Toronto 3 (OT)

Hyman Marner, Matthews
Muzzin Simmonds, Nylander
Muzzin Galchenyuk, Nylander

2021 Game #6 Montreal 3 - Toronto 2 (OT)

Spezza Kerfoot
Brodie Engvall

2021 Game #7 Montreal 3 - Toronto 1

Nylander Matthews, Spezza

2022 Game #6 Tampa 4 - Toronto 3 (OT)

Matthews Giordano, Nylander
Tavares Spezza, Kase
Tavares Nylander, Kerfoot

2022 Game #7 Tampa 2 - Toronto 1

Rielly Matthews, Marner

2023 Game #5 Tampa 4 - Toronto 2

Rielly Knies, Tavares
Matthews Tavares, Marner

Opponents 38 Leafs 19

PP 2 for 22 9%

 

[mikeyz]

Not a year.

I've been watching this team for literally decades It hasn't had this level of talent in my lifetime. Show me one team that moved it's core and competed in a handful of years

Show me one team that is on the verge of losing in a do or die 1st round series 6 years in a row.

The streak continues.

2018 Game #7 Boston 7 - Toronto 4

Marleau Gardiner, Nylander
Marleau Marner
Dermott Polak, Nylander
Kappanen

2019 Game #6 Boston 4 - Toronto 2

Rielly Nylander, Marleau,
Matthews Gardiner, Dermott

2019 Game #7 Boston 5 - Toronto 1

Tavares Ennis

2020 Game #5 Columbus 2 - Toronto 0

2021 Game #5 Montreal 4 - Toronto 3 (OT)

Hyman Marner, Matthews
Muzzin Simmonds, Nylander
Muzzin Galchenyuk, Nylander

2021 Game #6 Montreal 3 - Toronto 2 (OT)

Spezza Kerfoot
Brodie Engvall

2021 Game #7 Montreal 3 - Toronto 1

Nylander Matthews, Spezza

2022 Game #6 Tampa 4 - Toronto 3 (OT)

Matthews Giordano, Nylander
Tavares Spezza, Kase
Tavares Nylander, Kerfoot

2022 Game #7 Tampa 2 - Toronto 1

Rielly Matthews, Marner

2023 Game #5 Tampa 4 - Toronto 2

Rielly Knies, Tavares
Matthews Tavares, Marner

Come Tuesday morning, I am convinced that 2 more scores will be added to that list.

 

[stats1]

God I literally hate their attitudes.. they should be pissed off they let an opponent as dangerous as a 3 time Stanley Cup Finalist back up off the mat.. but they just don't care.

I love Marner, but he said something along the lines of "we had a good 3rd period we just have to try and do a full 60" and I'm like you guys haven't played a full 60 in the series. You're the one on the ice.. you don't try to make a better effort.. you do it. That is something the players have full control over and it is sad that they appear to be so laissez faire about everything.

Confident is one thing. Being upbeat after being outplayed for 3 straight games is not what I want or expect from people who want to WIN.

All this! It sounds like they were blasting music in the dressing room after a big win… I don’t get how you can be so upbeat after you lost another elimination game. If they said “we’re still confident” sure but to go as far as saying you’re upbeat is not a great sign of a team who loves to tell you they’ve learned a lot of lessons.

It seems they’re just happy that they worked hard. Something is seriously off with this group. We’ll really see how they respond tomorrow, if they come out flat or scared again you know it’s over in 7

 

[ToneDog]

Show me one team that is on the verge of losing in a do or die 1st round series 6 years in a row.


Come Tuesday morning, I am convinced that 2 more scores will be added to that list.

Show me a team that lost 6 consecutive first round series and went on to win the Cup.

After two demoralizing losses I thought Tampa was done. It can go either way now.

 

[ToneDog]

 

[Bravid Nonahan]

I was watching the game yesterday and seeing the 4th line out with 8 minutes left get scored on really was tough to watch. Honestly I would run 11 forwards and 7 d tomorrow.

Bunting-Matthews-Marner
Nylander-JT-Jarnkrok
Knies-O'Reilly-Acciari
(1 of ZAR/Laf)-Kampf

McCabe-Brodie
Rielly-Schenn
Gio-Liljegren
Holl

The 4th line and Justin Holl should only play if ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

We should run with 3 forward lines most of the game.

 

[Rob Brown]

View attachment 698524

It's such a no brainer that something has to change on both the Holl/Giordano pair and the 4th line. I was good with keeping Bunting out for Game 5, but put him in tomorrow and take out Lafferty, and then take out Holl and put Lily in. Surely Keefe isn't too stubborn to realize this but we'll find out.

 

[notbias]

Played the 4th line like they were the 1st

Am I missing soemthing? Laff and ZAR played 6 mins each...

Matthews/Marner - 23 mins
Nylander - 21 mins
ROR - 20 mins
Tavares 19 mins

 

[kevsh]

I want a cup and dont really give a shit if younger people are humiliated that their team isn't winning the first round fast enough.

Here's the thing, how on earth can you even dream of a cup win with a group that is on the verge of a historic string of futility for not being able to win a first round?

You say you don't care about 1st round wins, but you're clearly wise enough to understand if you can't close out a series you're not winning a cup. The comparison with the Bolts is fair, yes, it took them a long time after drafting Stamkos to win it all, but it also took longer to become a great team that had a shot. The Leafs have been very good for the past 4-5 years so they should be ahead on that timetable.

Secondly, when the Bolts got humiliated by the Blue Jackets the core, Stamkos and the other stars, knew they had to change their approach. The Leafs, perhaps unfortunately, have been so close in some of their series that they may have convinced themselves that everything is fine, they just have to push through.

After the Habs series at the very least the Leafs needed to re-evaluate the way the Bolts did. Great teams, future Cup-winning teams, don't choke on that level. Or at least, choke and then shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, we'll learn from this."

They didn't learn and two playoffs later, here we are again. That is why if they should fail again here, either this Summer they collectively, finally accept they have to change their approach or replace them with players that have already figured it out.

Sorry for the rambling post, I don't like see anyone attacking fans for not simply accepting the most humiliating post-season run in modern sports history.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

If Holl is in and we run 6 D, that's a wrap. Get yourself ready for a game 7!

 

[Suntouchable13]

Here's the thing, how on earth can you even dream of a cup win with a group that is on the verge of a historic string of futility for not being able to win a first round?

You say you don't care about 1st round wins, but you're clearly wise enough to understand if you can't close out a series you're not winning a cup. The comparison with the Bolts is fair, yes, it took them a long time after drafting Stamkos to win it all, but it also took longer to become a great team that had a shot. The Leafs have been very good for the past 4-5 years so they should be ahead on that timetable.

Secondly, when the Bolts got humiliated by the Blue Jackets the core, Stamkos and the other stars, knew they had to change their approach. The Leafs, perhaps unfortunately, have been so close in some of their series that they may have convinced themselves that everything is fine, they just have to push through.

After the Habs series at the very least the Leafs needed to re-evaluate the way the Bolts did. Great teams, future Cup-winning teams, don't choke on that level. Or at least, choke and then shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, we'll learn from this."

They didn't learn and two playoffs later, here we are again. That is why if they should fail again here, either this Summer they collectively, finally accept they have to change their approach or replace them with players that have already figured it out.

Sorry for the rambling post, I don't like see anyone attacking fans for not simply accepting the most humiliating post-season run in modern sports history.

There is no comp with the Bolts. They went to the finals in 2015 with a young Kuch, Stamkos, and Vasi. Then 2018 they made the ECF. No comparison whatsoever to this group.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Here's the thing, how on earth can you even dream of a cup win with a group that is on the verge of a historic string of futility for not being able to win a first round?

You say you don't care about 1st round wins, but you're clearly wise enough to understand if you can't close out a series you're not winning a cup. The comparison with the Bolts is fair, yes, it took them a long time after drafting Stamkos to win it all, but it also took longer to become a great team that had a shot. The Leafs have been very good for the past 4-5 years so they should be ahead on that timetable.

Secondly, when the Bolts got humiliated by the Blue Jackets the core, Stamkos and the other stars, knew they had to change their approach. The Leafs, perhaps unfortunately, have been so close in some of their series that they may have convinced themselves that everything is fine, they just have to push through.

After the Habs series at the very least the Leafs needed to re-evaluate the way the Bolts did. Great teams, future Cup-winning teams, don't choke on that level. Or at least, choke and then shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, we'll learn from this."

They didn't learn and two playoffs later, here we are again. That is why if they should fail again here, either this Summer they collectively, finally accept they have to change their approach or replace them with players that have already figured it out.

Sorry for the rambling post, I don't like see anyone attacking fans for not simply accepting the most humiliating post-season run in modern sports history.

I mean the Bruins are struggling to close out a series with Florida right now and people have been bowing at their feet for a year now. Hell the 2013 Bruins were up 3-1 on us and nearly blew it if not for a miraculous comeback....they then went on to win two more series and lose in the cup finals. The reality is that each series is usually its own thing and what happened in one doesn't always carry into the next one. That isn't to excuse the failure that this group has had or been over the years but I don't think failing to close out last night is some mark on the teams potential if(massive f***ing if) they actually do close it out in the next two games.

 

[Aashir]

Am I missing soemthing? Laff and ZAR played 6 mins each...

Matthews/Marner - 23 mins
Nylander - 21 mins
ROR - 20 mins
Tavares 19 mins

Going into the third, Matthews had played 12 minutes; nylander had played 10ish minutes and kampf was at like 7ish

Moreover, when he should put his big lines out, he puts out the 4th line. We go up 1-0, he puts out the fourth line, when we are down 2-1 with around 8 minutes to go, he puts out the fourth line. Both resulted in goals against. We don’t have a productive fourth line, it doesn’t help for the matter that we were down the second half of the game. the core 4 saw about as normal ice time as if we were winning by 2-3 goals. All of them should’ve played a majority of the 2nd or 3rd.

 

[Brown Dog]

Not ready to write the obit yet. They have a shot at rewriting the narrative and I'm going to invest all my energy into believing they will. And I firmly believe the sky is the limit once they get this first round monkey off their backs.

GO LEAFS GO!!!

 

[geo25]

Has a team ever fired a coach in the middle of a playoff series? The GM's job is on the line. There's always the ol' has to attend to personal matters excuse.

Didnt Uncle do it one year and appoint himself coach and win the Cup? I would love it if he was still here because he'd fire Keefe & get in there. Shame we let him go...

 

[Egghead1999]

Back in 2000, the lou fired coach Ftorek one week before the playoff. The Devils won the cup that year. Did he not teach Dubas that lesson?

Dubas checking his spreadsheet on the tablet behind the bench is a scene to behold

 

[Cleetus]

Dubas checking his spreadsheet on the tablet behind the bench is a scene to behold

Vancouver Canucks are so bad the spreadsheets say just fold the franchise.... maybe go check out how the Canucks are doing playing golf, and go back to your own board

 

[geo25]

To somehow think this core is contaminated, one must step back and examine their rationality. How do high value players spoil in a group exactly? More likely that the mechanics of the team has been mismanaged.
Since Stamkos was drafted and before the bolts won their first cup, they missed the playoffs 4 times and they had to wait 11 years for cup #1.
You think it was prudent for the lightning to jetison it's core early? Who does that? Only couch warrior have the convenience of throwing out your best players when there are zero consequences for their decisions. I've seen first round wins. I don't give a f*** about first round wins. I want a cup and dont really give a shit if younger people are humiliated that their team isn't winning the first round fast enough. I had to tolerate years with guys like Paul Higgins on the roster. Believe me...it can and has been much worse.
I would suggest that everyone who is offended by the players of this team, walk away. You don't have the intestinal fortitude to be a long term fan.
I am going to continue to point to the low hanging fruit of the team for improvement because that is what pragmatist problem solvers do. They don't take a wreckingball to a house if they don't like the design or function of a room. They renovate and improve.

Problem is Dubas aint the ideal renovator and refuses to deal the core. We will go nowhere just swapping 4th liners. The core is rotten ...how much more proof do we need...

 

[hockeyes]

I mean the Bruins are struggling to close out a series with Florida right now and people have been bowing at their feet for a year now. Hell the 2013 Bruins were up 3-1 on us and nearly blew it if not for a miraculous comeback....they then went on to win two more series and lose in the cup finals. The reality is that each series is usually its own thing and what happened in one doesn't always carry into the next one. That isn't to excuse the failure that this group has had or been over the years but I don't think failing to close out last night is some mark on the teams potential if(massive f***ing if) they actually do close it out in the next two games.

There are very glaring and massive differences between the Bruins and Leafs when it comes to playoff success. To try and compare the two is like comparing an orange and a donkey.

 

[geo25]

Agree with everything you said.

I think most do.

I think you do have to trade Nylander, Matthews or Marner.

JT can’t move, but Dubas has worked magic before.

You need to build tough, talented and complimentary pieces around Matthews if you keep him.

Same with Nylander or Marner.

For sure you aren’t getting all 3.

Build the right guys with JT and the line will be right.

Yes. This will be a huge retool. Dubas firing Keefe and Holl will be a nice start.
Simmonds is a waste of space.
All playoff goons can score. He can’t.

For the right deal I'd trade Matthews as well. He disappears for long stretches and imho he'd prefer to play in theUS

 

[keonsbitterness]

Didnt Uncle do it one year and appoint himself coach and win the Cup? I would love it if he was still here because he'd fire Keefe & get in there. Shame we let him go...

Lou did that twice (05-06, 06-07) and he got eliminated in the 2nd round both times. Cup happened in 2000 when Robbie Ftorek was fired by Lou with eight games left and replaced with Larry Robinson.