Post-Game Talk: Holl and Keefe hand Tampa the victory

[Trapper]

Can they be worse?

We could wait for them to be better or you know, we could change them???

 

[Notsince67]

Maybe, but were approaching a decade of failure with this core. If they cant win a round, they cant win a cup either and that core will need to be reworked. Even if it means a step back for a year or more

Not a year.

I hate to break it to you, but the chances of winning a cup with this core is already zero.

Of course that's not true - anything can happen, even this year... But that goes for your statement as well: How does trading away some/all of the top players mean they automatically have no chance at a Cup for ten years, at least? Such absolutes are nonsensical, especially when entirely based on speculation.

I've been watching this team for literally decades It hasn't had this level of talent in my lifetime. Show me one team that moved it's core and competed in a handful of years

 

[saltming]

Can they be worse?

Not on a team with championship aspirations

 

[pspot]

Vasilevsky getting hot could really be an issue

 

[kevsh]

That's the problem, they still think that the playoffs is just an extension of the regular season.

 

[Superstar]

Vasilevsky getting hot could really be an issue

Yes, if the Leafs need to score 4 plus goals a game to win, then it will be an issue for sure. He's getting hot.

 

[Gallagbi]

Not a year.

I've been watching this team for literally decades It hasn't had this level of talent in my lifetime. Show me one team that moved it's core and competed in a handful of years

The trouble is that this talent cant win here. If they prove otherwise, theres no need to move on from them, but right now theyve under achieved and the trades wouod be based on continued failure.

The "show me" argument is tough because i can ask for an example of a core that lost this consistently in round 1 finally breaking through and you cant provide one.

I do think the idea would be along the lines of Washington moving on from Semin and Green while keeping Ovi and Backstrom. Tampa moving on from a core of St. Louis, Bishop to Kuch and Vasi while keeping Stamkos, Hedman. Boston went from a 116 pt team with Kessel and Savard as the core to winning a cup 2 years later with neither on the playofd roster.

But honestly no team has ever been in our situation with this type of talent and no results for this prolongued a period.

 

[MSZ]

That's the problem, they still think that the playoffs is just an extension of the regular season.

Playoff hockey is an entirely different game.

No wonder why they lost 10 in a row in series clinching games.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I understand the motivation but it isn't logical. You never get that quality of player falling out of the sky. Remove the core and you bring the chances of a cup down to zero for another decade at least.

Very fair point, but if worse comes to worst, seven years of first round losses and 0-12 in close-out games could be impossible for the board to ignore. Based on contracts and no-move clauses about to kick in, management has the freedom this May and June to make major changes or even start another total rebuild, in which case Tavares and Reilly would consider waiving for a chance at a Cup.

The counter-argument is that Rogers would veto any drastic player moves with three years left on the TV deal. Playoffs with no Leafs could be too much financial pain for Rogers.

 

[Gallagbi]

Very fair point, but if worse comes to worst, seven years of first round losses and 0-12 in close-out games could be impossible for the board to ignore. Based on contracts and no-move clauses about to kick in, management has the freedom this May and June to make major changes or even start another total rebuild, in which case Tavares and Reilly would consider waiving for a chance at a Cup.

The counter-argument is that Rogers would veto any drastic player moves with three years left on the TV deal. Playoffs with no Leafs could be too much financial pain for Rogers.

Nylander is the easy answer, but im not sure its the right one or moves the needle

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Jarnkrok-Matthews-Nylander
Bunting-Tavares-Marner
Knies-O’Reilly-Kerfoot
ZAR-Kampf-Acciari

McCabe-Brodie
Rielly-Schenn
Giordano-Liljegren

 

[GoonieFace]

Vasi is putting the lotion in the basket

 

[Trapper]

Not a year.

I've been watching this team for literally decades It hasn't had this level of talent in my lifetime. Show me one team that moved it's core and competed in a handful of years

Move the core sounds like you are trading everyone. Change the core has been done by teams.
I expect this team to beat Tampa but then what? Say we lose in the 2nd round? We still want a team that is good and balanced to compete for the Cup moving forward.

So say you found a good D in a deal for Nylander, and re-signed ROR.

A core moving forward could be:
Matthews - Marner (making the bulk of money
Knies - ROR

When JT contract expires we have 11 million for more depth.

Add a strong D for Nylander with Rielly, Lily, etc. moving forward. It’s still basically the same cure with changes.

 

[Mess]

Tampa isn't losing 3 straight on home ice.

This goes to game 7.

Only Boston had a better home record than TB at home this year, so for Leafs to win 3 seems more unlikely then likely and if you add Samsonov road record vs his home one the odds certainly suggest this is going to 7 in all probability,

Although that all said its remarkable when you consider all the playoff series that the road teams are winning at a much higher percentage of games when the home team is the favourite.

 

[Egghead1999]

Move the core sounds like you are trading everyone. Change the core has been done by teams.
I expect this team to beat Tampa but then what? Say we lose in the 2nd round? We still want a team that is good and balanced to compete for the Cup moving forward.

So say you found a good D in a deal for Nylander, and re-signed ROR.

A core moving forward could be:
Matthews - Marner (making the bulk of money
Knies - ROR

When JT contract expires we have 11 million for more depth.

Add a strong D for Nylander with Rielly, Lily, etc. moving forward. It’s still basically the same cure with changes.

If Leafs cannot reach the 2nd round, Matthews must go too (hoping AZ gets the 1AO as well).

 

[Schennanigans]

If we don’t get out of this round just blow up the whole team.

 

[Notsince67]

The trouble is that this talent cant win here. If they prove otherwise, theres no need to move on from them, but right now theyve under achieved and the trades wouod be based on continued failure.

The "show me" argument is tough because i can ask for an example of a core that lost this consistently in round 1 finally breaking through and you cant provide one.

I do think the idea would be along the lines of Washington moving on from Semin and Green while keeping Ovi and Backstrom. Tampa moving on from a core of St. Louis, Bishop to Kuch and Vasi while keeping Stamkos, Hedman.

But honestly no team has ever been in our situation with this type of talent and no results for this prolongued a period.

To somehow think this core is contaminated, one must step back and examine their rationality. How do high value players spoil in a group exactly? More likely that the mechanics of the team has been mismanaged.
Since Stamkos was drafted and before the bolts won their first cup, they missed the playoffs 4 times and they had to wait 11 years for cup #1.
You think it was prudent for the lightning to jetison it's core early? Who does that? Only couch warrior have the convenience of throwing out your best players when there are zero consequences for their decisions. I've seen first round wins. I don't give a f*** about first round wins. I want a cup and dont really give a shit if younger people are humiliated that their team isn't winning the first round fast enough. I had to tolerate years with guys like Paul Higgins on the roster. Believe me...it can and has been much worse.
I would suggest that everyone who is offended by the players of this team, walk away. You don't have the intestinal fortitude to be a long term fan.
I am going to continue to point to the low hanging fruit of the team for improvement because that is what pragmatist problem solvers do. They don't take a wreckingball to a house if they don't like the design or function of a room. They renovate and improve.

 

[Notsince67]

Move the core sounds like you are trading everyone. Change the core has been done by teams.
I expect this team to beat Tampa but then what? Say we lose in the 2nd round? We still want a team that is good and balanced to compete for the Cup moving forward.

So say you found a good D in a deal for Nylander, and re-signed ROR.

A core moving forward could be:
Matthews - Marner (making the bulk of money
Knies - ROR

When JT contract expires we have 11 million for more depth.

Add a strong D for Nylander with Rielly, Lily, etc. moving forward. It’s still basically the same cure with changes.

Sure...trade if it make sense but not just to discard for the hell of it. That said, it is probably easier to remove guys like Holl and anyone who made the decision to stick with him.

 

[keonsbitterness]

If Leafs cannot reach the 2nd round, Matthews must go too (hoping AZ gets the 1AO as well).

Arizona or any other team is not giving up a generational player who could be the best player in the league a few years from now.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Tavares' play and contract is absolutely killing us. You insert Trochek and Ekholm (as an example) instead of Tavares and Holl and we're taking deep runs.

Dubas who loves a fast team, for a fast game, picked uber slow Tavares.

 

[Trapper]

Sure...trade if it make sense but not just to discard for the hell of it. That said, it is probably easier to remove guys like Holl and anyone who made the decision to stick with him.

Only if it makes sense. We drafted Nylander in 2014. Teams that go 10 years without moving the needle usually have to make some changes at some higher level. Pittsburgh moved out Staal and then Fleury, Chicago moved on from guys, it happens after a decade.

 

[Blanche Blanche]

I'd take you up on that offer, no problemo.....except I'm in BC.

Victoria is an awesome place.

 

[Notsince67]

Back in 2000, the lou fired coach Ftorek one week before the playoff. The Devils won the cup that year. Did he not teach Dubas that lesson?

 

[Blanche Blanche]

One of my rugby coaches in the past used to always say the same thing before any games, it goes something like, ‘You guys are f**king starting, see the guys around you, they f**king want take your spots, you owe it to f*** them to f*** smash the f*** out of the other team. Let’s f*** kill them in the first 20 mins, get the first f**king big hit in to set the tone, scare the f**k out of them…. It continues for another 3 mins while all at the same time, he smashed, bumped, slapped and punched everyone of us. By the time we are done, our chests are usually red, but we are all pissed and couldnt wait to smash and deliver pains to the opposing team.

I don’t see Keefe being able to achieve that.

The guys a simp. He’s like Prince Harry being silenced my Megan markle on live TV.

Control your god damn team !!!!

Why can’t you start ON TIME.

 

[Gallagbi]

To somehow think this core is contaminated, one must step back and examine their rationality. How do high value players spoil in a group exactly? More likely that the mechanics of the team has been mismanaged.
Since Stamkos was drafted and before the bolts won their first cup, they missed the playoffs 4 times and they had to wait 11 years for cup #1.
You think it was prudent for the lightning to jetison it's core early? Who does that? Only couch warrior have the convenience of throwing out your best players when there are zero consequences for their decisions. I've seen first round wins. I don't give a f*** about first round wins. I want a cup and dont really give a shit if younger people are humiliated that their team isn't winning the first round fast enough. I had to tolerate years with guys like Paul Higgins on the roster. Believe me...it can and has been much worse.
I would suggest that everyone who is offended by the players of this team, walk away. You don't have the intestinal fortitude to be a long term fan.
I am going to continue to point to the low hanging fruit of the team for improvement because that is what pragmatist problem solvers do. They don't take a wreckingball to a house if they don't like the design or function of a room. They renovate and improve.

Its nice you saw dark times, but I also remember walking through the Gardens in the Ballard era, so youre not the only one who saw dark times. Hell, i remember going through the Gardens after his death. You may have years on me, but youre not the only fan who saw highs and lows.

I understand this isnt the franchise low point, but the question is how do you obtain the high point.

As for spoiling, this feels like quick sand to me. So how much is enough? Every series losss has felt different, but the consistency is in the core of this team. Different goalies, D , coaches, play styles. So if you dont move on, how do you improve? The jump between 6 D and 4th lines across the league isnt the difference between cups. The depth is there, especially this year. Eventually you need your best to differentiate and elevate over the short comings elsewhere.