HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[VanIslander]

Hasek should be top-three, but he was too much of a wildcard to be at the top.

1. Hasek was wild but not a wildcard. He was consistently awesome. Six consecutive years leading the NHL in save percentage, six Vezinas in an 8-year stretch, impressive in the Canada Cup earlier for Czechoslovakia, in international tourneys later, in Detroit as an old man, retiring with the still remaining best CAREER save percentage in NHL history (and had to, as he faced so much).

2. Patrick Roy was VOLATILE! Hot & cold & hot again. He sucked royally then came back with great games. Roy is more of a wildcard than Hasek.

3. Dryden won 6 cups in 8 years and retired at the height of his game like Barry Sanders in football. He also is the antithesis of a wildcard.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I think Lundqvist should be a lock for top 20, and closer to 15.

For goalies born post Brodeur (1972) he is in a tier of his own for consistently being elite. From 2006 until 2018 he was a top 10 goalie in the league, with most of those years being top 5.

Most of those Rangers teams weren't anything special. Who were the best defensemen to regularly play in front of him? Girardi and McDonaugh?

With the rise of Shesterkin we're now at over 20+ years of post Brodeur born goalies. How much should we value being the clear longevity leader in a 20 year period?

He doesn't have the peak of Price or the playoff success of Vasilevsky. But being able to provide elite goaltending for over a decade is worth a lot. Especially with his contemporaries largely struggling with consistency (Bobrovsky), playoffs (Fleury, Luongo), health (Price), or longevity (Thomas).

I think the best goalie born 1972-1995+ should inherently be ranked highly.

 

[VanIslander]

I cannot put Lundqvist above Luongo because my eyes have seen them both so much (you can't be reductive to cup counting when you've seen a player's whole career). But both will be on the list, probably close together, the whereabouts will come out in the wash. There will be good discussions of King Henrik vs. Captain Lu.

 

[Matsun]

Most times top 3 in Sv%
Glenn Hall	11
Johnny Bower	10
Dominik Hasek	8
Jacques Plante	8
Patrick Roy	7
Tony Esposito	6
Ken Dryden	6
Gump Worsley	6
Bernie Parent	5
Tuukka Rask	4

Most times top 10 in Sv%
Glenn Hall	15
Jacques Plante	15
Patrick Roy	14
Gump Worsley	13
Terry Sawchuk	12
Tony Esposito	11
Dominik Hasek	11
Billy Smith	11
Johnny Bower	10
Roberto Luongo	10

Most times top 3 in Sv% salary cap era
Tuukka Rask	4
Tim Thomas	2
Sergei Bobrovsky	2
Roberto Luongo	2
Tomas Vokoun	2
Ben Bishop	2
Carey Price	1
Henrik Lundqvist	1
Connor Hallebuyck	1
Mark-Andre Fleury	1

Most times top 10 in Sv% salary cap era
Henrik Lundqvist	7
Roberto Luongo	6
Pekka Rinne	5
Tomas Vokoun	5
Carey Price	5
Sergei Bobrovsky	4
Tim Thomas	4
Mark-Andre Fleury	4
Jusse Saros	4
Connor Hallebuyck	4

 

[Finster8]

My first childhood hero won 6 Stanley Cups and decided at the height of his career - after only 8 seasons - to shockingly retire to pursue a writing and political career, and suddenly the hockey media kicked him out of the 'possibly best ever' discussion, to the curb, away from O6 staples: Plante, Hall, Sawchuk. Overnight.

Dryden was 6’4 and had the attributes that GMs are looking for 50 years later. He was quick, agile and was skilled for a big goalie when their just weren’t many his size with his attributes. I wasn’t even a Montreal Fan but loved the way he played, just my two cents

 

[VanIslander]

Dryden led Cornell to a NCAA championship and was tourney 1st team all star, his two other college playoff years he was an all star. He set still unbroken records at the U, winning 76 of 81 games as the team's top star.

 

[rmartin65]

He strangled a Buffalo News reporter, he held the franchise hostage with made-up injuries DURING THE PLAYOFFS, and he demanded a trade to the best team in hockey, leaving his own team with no options.

Hasek should be top-three, but he was too much of a wildcard to be at the top.

I don't think these should be taken into consideration during this project. If I was assembling a team, absolutely. But when I am creating a 'greatest of' list, I really only care about their play on the ice.

These actions (well, some of them, at least) definitely impacted his team, but they didn't impact his play.

 

[VanIslander]

Goalies are crazy.

Full stop.

Hockey history has insane details!

Judge goalies by their job not their off-ice antics.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't mean to stop conversation at all, but I'm starting to amass information that I think will be useful in the list building process...what will be the next thread created? Like, are we pushing for certain goalies to make these initial lists here? Or will there be a more goalie-focused thread as opposed to a "how long of a list" thread...?

 

[Professor What]

I don't mean to stop conversation at all, but I'm starting to amass information that I think will be useful in the list building process...what will be the next thread created? Like, are we pushing for certain goalies to make these initial lists here? Or will there be a more goalie-focused thread as opposed to a "how long of a list" thread...?

If you've got someone you want to make the case for, this is the time to do it. The poll was just tacked onto this thread to try to gauge the public will at the same time. I'd say that's been pretty well determined though. We'll be doing an initial list of 80 with 60 to make the final product.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I don't mean to stop conversation at all, but I'm starting to amass information that I think will be useful in the list building process...what will be the next thread created? Like, are we pushing for certain goalies to make these initial lists here? Or will there be a more goalie-focused thread as opposed to a "how long of a list" thread...?

Any goalie-related information works here. This thread is all-encompassing.

And yeah, I'd say the list length has been determined. I'll update the OP to reflect that. With that in mind, I'll start accepting lists of 80 goalies going forward. No rush, of course - still a month to go.

 

[Felidae]

Most times top 3 in Sv%
Glenn Hall	11
Johnny Bower	10
Dominik Hasek	8
Jacques Plante	8
Patrick Roy	7
Tony Esposito	6
Ken Dryden	6
Gump Worsley	6
Bernie Parent	5
Tuukka Rask	4

Most times top 10 in Sv%
Glenn Hall	15
Jacques Plante	15
Patrick Roy	14
Gump Worsley	13
Terry Sawchuk	12
Tony Esposito	11
Dominik Hasek	11
Billy Smith	11
Johnny Bower	10
Roberto Luongo	10

Most times top 3 in Sv% salary cap era
Tuukka Rask	4
Tim Thomas	2
Sergei Bobrovsky	2
Roberto Luongo	2
Tomas Vokoun	2
Ben Bishop	2
Carey Price	1
Henrik Lundqvist	1
Connor Hallebuyck	1
Mark-Andre Fleury	1

Most times top 10 in Sv% salary cap era
Henrik Lundqvist	7
Roberto Luongo	6
Pekka Rinne	5
Tomas Vokoun	5
Carey Price	5
Sergei Bobrovsky	4
Tim Thomas	4
Mark-Andre Fleury	4
Jusse Saros	4
Connor Hallebuyck	4

I know sv% is a questionable stat but Luongo being the only goalie who played in the 2000s to 2010s to appear in the most top 10 sv% list is pretty impressive, especially since his peers and active goaltenders aren't particularly close to him on that regard. (He did this on teams with varying defensive ability too)

I believe 2nd best among his peers was Lundqvist, with 5.

 

[Staniowski]

consider that the two seasons immediately after parent (almost) running the table produced this run:

• 107-19-16 record (combined rs and playoffs)
• 1st in GAA and SV% among anyone who played a single rs minute
• ^ ditto playoffs, anyone who played a single minute
• 2.02 combined GAA, .925 combined SV%, 285 GA over 145 games (8,474 mins) / 3,781 shots
• two cups, two 1ASTs, two vezinas (old)

both guys had stunning runs, but i think there also must also have been something about the league in the 1970s that created this level of total domination.

but for comparison, here’s how parent would stack up:

• 113-37-21 record (combined rs and playoffs)
• 1st in GAA and SV% among anyone who played a single rs minute
• 2nd in GAA and SV% among anyone who played meaningful games in the playoffs
• 1.96 combined GAA, .926 combined SV%, 337 GA over 173 games (10,301 mins) / 4,585 shots
• two cups, two 1ASTs, two vezinas (old), two smythes

Many years ago, I started watching some old Flyers games from the '70s, especially when they were at their best. The first thing you notice (other than the team's aggressiveness and dirtiness) is how strong they are positionally and - important in this discussion - how few scoring chances they gave up. Some games Parent faced basically nothing.

Teams play good defense for the purpose of allowing as few good scoring chances - and goals - as possible.

In order to properly assess him, you've gotta watch him. He faced fewer scoring chances than anybody, but he also had real talent. You've gotta figure out his talent within that context

Same for Dryden, Resch, Smith, etc.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

GSAA is the exact stat I'm hoping we can do better than. It's better than save percentage but not that much better.

The best 70s goalies always look amazing in GSAA.

GSAA is a promising idea in theory, but there are a number of issues with how it's implemented.

Here are the all-time single season leaders from hockey-reference.com:

It really bugs me that the all-time top four comes from just three seasons (when we have close to 70 years worth of data). And it's not like it's Gretzky's run in the 1980's (when we have arguably the greatest player of all-time at his peak). It's four different goalies! It's essentially impossible that this result could happen, without there being a serious flaw in how the stat is calculated.

 

[MadLuke]

It's essentially impossible that this result could happen, without there being a serious flaw in how the stat is calculated.

I am not sure there is a flaw, looking at raw GSAA from different season is probably just exactly like looking at raw points or +/- between different season.

The value of a goal scored change a lot, same for a goal saved. No one would ever even just think to look at raw point total between a 70 games seasons in the 50s and one in the 70s, same should go for GSAA.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I am not sure there is a flaw, looking at raw GSAA from different season is probably just exactly like looking at raw points between different season.

The value of a goal scored change a lot, same for a goal saved. No one would ever even just think to look at raw point total between a 70 games seasons in the 50s and one in the 70s, same goes for GSAA

I should have clarified. It's flawed in the sense that we need to consider the context before accepting the numbers at face value. (This conclusion will be obvious to most of us, but it's worth emphasizing).

Some of the issues that need to be considered:

1) the quality of the league average goalie - this was obviously significantly higher in 1967 compared to 1977 (for example), which makes it easier for a top goalie to beat the league average by a wider margin in the 1970's.

2) how goalies are deployed - GSAA is essentially combining save percentage with workload, but a goalie's workload is partly dictated by leaguewide coaching preferences. Goalies who played in an era where coaches used a "platoon" approach will have their GSAA deflated, even if they played a ton of games relative to their competition at the time (ie Patrick Roy)

3) length of the schedule - all else being equal, it's easier to record more GSAA when there's an 80+ game schedule compared to the shorter seasons in the Original Six era, right after expansion, and in the lockout/COVID years

4) flaws inherent in save percentage - I won't both repeating them here (I've covered this is numerous other posts over the years), but any flaws in save percentage are baked into GSAA

Despite these issues, I think GSAA has some informational value. But simply comparing the numbers across different generations can lead to flawed conclusions (is anyone going to argue that Vachon, Joseph and Vanbiesbrouck peaked higher than Hasek, Roy and Plante)? I realize I'm probably stating the obvious here, but skimming through this thread, I already see GSAA being quoted without any context, so maybe there's some value in talking about this upfront.

 

[buffalowing88]

I don't think these should be taken into consideration during this project. If I was assembling a team, absolutely. But when I am creating a 'greatest of' list, I really only care about their play on the ice.

These actions (well, some of them, at least) definitely impacted his team, but they didn't impact his play.

Totally fair, I just have a bad taste in my mouth from Hasek. I imagine it's due to my age and bias as a Sabres fan today. All of the ex-Sabres from that era who have spoken out seem to have the consensus that he was a miserable person, but also the only reason they competed in the playoffs.

 

[buffalowing88]

1. Hasek was wild but not a wildcard. He was consistently awesome. Six consecutive years leading the NHL in save percentage, six Vezinas in an 8-year stretch, impressive in the Canada Cup earlier for Czechoslovakia, in international tourneys later, in Detroit as an old man, retiring with the still remaining best CAREER save percentage in NHL history (and had to, as he faced so much).

2. Patrick Roy was VOLATILE! Hot & cold & hot again. He sucked royally then came back with great games. Roy is more of a wildcard than Hasek.

3. Dryden won 6 cups in 8 years and retired at the height of his game like Barry Sanders in football. He also is the antithesis of a wildcard.

Appreciate your points and generally agree but I don't think that Roy was as much of a wildcard as Hasek, personally.

Roy had a wild moment at the end there with Montreal and he had some issues with Team Canada, if I can recall, but Hasek was actively sabotaging Buffalo his last year or two with his refusal to commit to whether or not he would play.

The 93-99 Hasek is the best goalie of all-time in terms of peak. The 99-01 Hasek was a guy who was willing to throw the team in front of the bus instead of himself. I just don't love that. But as others have said, maybe this doesn't matter when judging the best goalie. Hasek was on another tier, he just wouldn't have too many guys supporting him these days. Roy still has some influence and reverence.

 

[VanIslander]

..Hasek was actively sabotaging Buffalo his last year or two with his refusal to commit to whether or not he would play.

In Hasek's last year in Buffalo: the Vezina trophy and a league-leading 11 shutouts among his 37 wins.

He was an *** off the ice, but top goalies are psychos usually. On the ice: he brings it every night.

The next year he goes to Detroit and wins all 16 playoff games needed to hoist the Stanley Cup.

All profiled here (his 2002 playoffs debut in Detroit in glorious detail from minute 30 onward on the clip; earlier, several great Czech-commentated Canada Cup tilts against USA & the Soviets; great forgotten Ottawa Sens moments)

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

It seems fine and valid to me whether you want to discredit the off-ice stuff or not.

Availability matters whether dependent on health or the lunar cycle, which also is why I imagine Gilles Gratton will be a snub on most lists.

 

[VanIslander]

Availability of whom?

Are you talking goalies here?

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Availability of whom?

Are you talking goalies here?

If someone promotes Roy over Hašek for never quitting on his team during playoffs, then that seems fine by me. And if you think his faffing around with the Sabres and quitting on his team at one point is irrelevant in the grander scheme of things, then that’s fine too.

 

[VanIslander]

Players don't play for more money or because they want to be traded or whatever reason.

But when dressed and on the ice: do they play and bring it? That is all that matters.

 

[Michael Farkas]

But when dressed and on the ice: do they play and bring it? That is all that matters.

So, then you must absolutely love Crosby then...

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Supposing you have two goaltenders - at the peak of their games they are of identical skill.

Goaltender A plays day-in and day-out (let's say 65-70 games per year) because he and his coaches know that even doing so, it's far better for the team for Goaltender A to be in net.

Goaltender B will only play when they're at the peak of their game, and so begs out of games either overtly or through hurt disguised as injury, forcing the backup into net more often. This even occurs occasionally in the playoffs, although God forbid a beat reporter mentions it.

At the end of the season, Goaltender B has more impressive numbers than Goaltender A.

Do you penalize Goaltender B? Your best ability is your availability.