HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Neutrinos]

I'm looking forward to seeing where Tony Esposito does wind up here. I recently did a bit of a deep dive on posts about him in this forum and he's grown on me a lot. I think the individual hardware is pretty impressive, too.

He's the NHL's all-time leader in GSAA with 498

Roy is 2nd with 461

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Goals Saved Above Average | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Tony Esposito (498), 2. Patrick Roy (461), 3. Dominik Hašek (413), 4. Bernie Parent (321), 5. Ken Dryden (317), 6. Jacques Plante (297), 7. Roberto Luongo (270), 8. Glenn Hall (239), 9. Billy Smith (231), 10. Martin Brodeur (207)

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[jigglysquishy]

GSAA is the exact stat I'm hoping we can do better than. It's better than save percentage but not that much better.

The best 70s goalies always look amazing in GSAA.

 

[Nick Hansen]

One of the Czech goalies is horrendous...I forget which one, but it'll be obvious on the re-watch.

Gotta be Cechmanek that you are thinking of, he some how got great numbers in Philly but is out of the league one year after leaving them for LA Kings:

Roman Čechmánek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Roman Čechmánek. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Had no idea he died last year...

 

[Michael Farkas]

Gotta be Cechmanek that you are thinking of, he some how got great numbers in Philly but is out of the league one year after leaving them for LA Kings:

Roman Čechmánek Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Roman Čechmánek. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Had no idea he died last year...

Nah, I know he is awful. One of the 70s/80s guys is not good too, I never remember which. But he has no second save ability at all. Just goes all jellyfish after the first shooter's flinch...

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I hope you don't mind if I post some of what I have on Bill Durnan. I've used some French-language sources.

First, an overview of Durnan's hockey career. The best sources here are his NHL Top 100 page and a 1947 article in Le Petit Journal (French).

Minor/junior hockey

• Durnan started playing goal as a boy in the Toronto area. He played for Westmoreland United Church, where his coach encouraged him to develop his ambidextrous style.
• At age 15, in 1931-32, he joined the North Toronto juniors and his club won the league championship.
• The next year, 1932-33, he joined the Sudbury Junior Wolves. Sudbury had won the Memorial Cup the previous season, led by the departing Toe Blake. They won the Northern Ontario championship in 32-33, but lost to the Newmarket Redmen in the playoffs. The Montreal Gazette described the 17 year old Durnan as "one of the most polished goaltenders in junior hockey." (The 1947 article in Le Petit Journal says Durnan won the Memorial Cup with Sudbury, but I don't think that's accurate.)

Senior amateur hockey

• Durnan moved on to senior hockey at age 18. In 1934-35, he played for the O.H.A. champion Toronto club. However, he suffered a painful knee injury off the ice in 1935, and Toronto dropped him. Durnan had previously been pursuing an NHL career and hoped to play for the Leafs, but this experience embittered him and he decided to leave his NHL dreams behind. Durnan didn't play hockey in the 1935-36 season.
• Bill Brydge, formerly of the New York Americans, recruited Durnan to play senior hockey in the mining town of Kirkland Lake. Durnan played for the Kirkland Lake Blue Devils for four seasons, 1936-37 through 1939-40.
• In the summer Durnan played for the Kirkland Lake fast pitch softball team as a pitcher. Some said he was the best pitcher in Canada, and a better pitcher than a goaltender. (He was banned from pitching in a Toronto league because he was too good.) Durnan always said he preferred softball, but hockey paid him seven thousand a year and softball paid him nothing.
• In the 1939-40 season, the Kirkland Lake team added a couple of ringers and loaded up for a run at the Allan Cup. (Senior amateur hockey at this point had been amateur in name only for years, and player movement was common.) They were initially not viewed as a favourite for the Allan Cup, but they dominated the playoffs, getting better as they went on, with an 11-1-2 playoff record and 66 goals scored against 28 allowed. They beat the Toronto Goodyears and then the Sydney Millionaires and the Montreal Royals. After beating the Royals they were finally recognized as an outstanding team, and they blew out Calgary in 3 games with scores of 8-5, 9-1, and 7-1. Marty Burke, the former NHLer who coached Calgary, said Kirkland Lake was the greatest senior amateur team he had ever seen, even better than the 1924 Toronto Granites of Harry Watson, Hooley Smith and Dunc Munro. The Kirkland Lake team was voted team of the year by the Canadian Press at the end of 1940, ahead of football's Winnipeg Blue Bombers.
• The Montreal Canadiens were coming off a 1939-40 season where they finished in the basement of the NHL, and they vigorously pursued top amateur players in the 1940 offseason to restock their club. Even before before the Allan Cup playoffs were over, the Canadiens were reported to have Durnan's rights, and he was believed to be in line to replace Bourque or Cude on the big club. Durnan reported to Montreal training camp in September as part of a group of 30 amateurs signed by the Canadiens. Spots on the NHL club and the New Haven AHL club were available, and the rest would get a chance to play with the associated Montreal Royals senior amateur team. Other amateurs at this camp were Elmer Lach, Ken Reardon, and Joe Benoit from out west, and Butch Bouchard and Paul Bibeault from Montreal - quite a haul for Montreal!
• The Canadiens did move on from Claude Bourque and Wilf Cude in goal. But they traded for Bert Gardiner from the AHL's Philadelphia Ramblers to fill their starting goalie position, and Durnan was assigned to the Montreal Royals. Durnan played for the Royals for three seasons, 1940-41 through 1942-43. He nearly won the Allan Cup for a second consecutive season in 1941, but lost to the Sydney Millionaires (who were led by Dick Kowcinak and John McCreedy, Durnan's former teammates from Kirkland Lake.)
• Paul Bibeault replaced Bert Gardiner in goal for the Canadiens in 1941-42, and Durnan continued to play for the Royals.
• Why did Durnan play three seasons for the Montreal Royals, and only join the Canadiens at the age of 27 for the 1943-44 season? It sounds like it was his choice. Durnan later said that he was torn between hockey and business and wasn't ready to commit to hockey, and also that he had always dreamed of playing for his hometown Toronto Maple Leafs, not the Canadiens.
• Per the NHL Top 100 writeup, Dick Irvin Jr remembers the most frustrating thing for his father (Montreal coach Dick Irvin Sr) was that Durnan played for the Royals, not the Canadiens. The Royals also played their home games in the Forum, and it was obvious that Durnan was better than the pro team's goalies.

Professional hockey

• Durnan's great record through 7 professional seasons is well known. He won 6 Vezina trophies for fewest goals allowed, and was 6 times voted the first team all-star goaltender by NHL coaches. He led his team to 4 league championships and two Stanley Cup victories.

Retirement

• Durnan retired at age 34. In a controversial move, he quit during the 1950 NHL playoffs, and it was said his anxiety and nerves got the best of him.
• Dink Carroll referenced the incident a couple of times in his columns and said Durnan developed a virus infection. He was given penicillin, and had an reaction that made him dizzy. After he was hit in the face by a shot and badly shaken, he decided he couldn't help the club in his condition and asked to be replaced. He retired after the season to pursue his business interests and spend more time with his family.
• Durnan said in a 1970 interview that if they had paid the same salaries when he played, they would have had to shoot him to get him off the ice.

Legacy

• In a 1958 poll of 70 sports writers and commentators for their all time all star hockey team, Bill Durnan finished first among goaltenders.
• Durnan finished 35th on the 1998 Hockey News Top 100 players. 6th among goalies, behind Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Roy, Dryden. Hasek and Brodeur were still mid-career.
• One of 15 goaltenders on the 2018 NHL Top 100 players list.
• In 1967, Gordie Howe rated Bill Durnan as the best goaltender he faced.

This is all excellent, thank you. The number one thing that stood out to me when researching his amateur career was how highly regarded he was as a softball player, actually. I can definitely buy that he said he preferred it to hockey. It's easy to imagine that the hand-eye coordination developed from softball would've contributed to his ambidextrous play, which was actually not remarked upon very often from what I've read so far.

Durnan is well known here, both in softball and hockey, and there is no secret about the fact local players regard him as one of the outstanding softball pitchers of the decade.

As far as the project's concerned, my goal when looking into him is trying to assess when he became 'the dude' to see how many prime years he spent in amateur hockey rather than the NHL. It's very unfortunate about the 1935 injury, because as early as age 18 I was seeing him explicitly referred to as the next Maple Leafs goalie. Definitely a 'what if' guy.

 

[nabby12]

I'm hoping Charlie Gardiner gets his due here. I still see him so underrated on many lists.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I will be screening for Jarmo Myllys’ name. Best in the world for a stretch, Finnish Hockey Hall of Famer.

 

[buffalowing88]

GSAA is the exact stat I'm hoping we can do better than. It's better than save percentage but not that much better.

The best 70s goalies always look amazing in GSAA.

Entirely agree. I think the case for Espo is going to be on the hardware, though. He has just about everything needed and technically, even his name on the Cup. Also, something of an innovator and a guy who played pretty solid in the Summit Series.

 

[Felidae]

Now that the goalie list will be revised after 12 years, I hope this board is ready to acknowledge Luongo as the best goalie of the 2000s...

 

[VanIslander]

Final list of 40, Round 1 list submission of 80.

 

[rmartin65]

I will be screening for Jarmo Myllys’ name. Best in the world for a stretch, Finnish Hockey Hall of Famer.

Would you mind collecting some research on him for the rest of us? Maybe I'm the only one behind the ball here, but he isn't on the first draft of names I have written down.

 

[carjackmalone]

Best two year run

Haseks two Hart Vexina seasons vs

Bernie Parents 2 year cup run 30 shutouts


Or Tony Esposito first two years in Chicago

Or Jacques planted 2 year run for for Sr Louis/Toronto

 

[VanIslander]

Hašeks two HartVezina seasons vs

Bernie Parents 2 year cup run 30 shutouts

Hasek...
5-time Hart trophy finalist
6-time Vezina winner (against Roy, Brodeur, Belfour)

Vs.

Parent...
1-time Hart finalist
2-time Vezina winner

Now if you want to include playoff/tourney all-the-marbles moments: Parent had one and a half; Hasek wowed in the Canada Cup, trump cards any goalie in Olympic hockey, and Stanley Cup drags a ragtag non-HOF lineup to Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals, only to "lose" in OT due to a missed noncall. He went on to win the cup in Detroit.

To suggest Parent and Hasek belong in the same zip code is absurd to the nth degree.

Parent did shine for a bit, as goalies with all-time great players and coaches around them do. But to "vs" him against Hasek? There is no universe where Parent is top 10 all time and Hasek ain't.

 

[bobholly39]

Now that the goalie list will be revised after 12 years, I hope this board is ready to acknowledge Luongo as the best goalie of the 2000s...

It's funny how usually in these lists modern players are the easiest ones to rank. If we did forwards - it's super easy for me to differentiate between modern day forwards. Crosby/Jagr/McDavid/Ovechkin/Kane/Malking etc - I can rank those in my sleep.

But for goalies - it's much harder. Luongo vs Lundqvist vs Price vs Quick vs Vasi vs a few others. I have no idea how to rank them, going to have to take some time to consider it.

It's actually similarly difficult with defensemen I find. Differentiating between Karlsson, Hedman, Doughty, Weber etc is hard.

I think I have both Price and Lundqvist ahead of Luongo - but, will have to consider it a bit more closely.

Also - it's great to see so many posters in this thread. I hope all of you plan on participating. The more voters the better.

 

[VanIslander]

It's Hasek & Roy on tier 1.
It's... 3 to 5 or more on the next rung.
Split hairs thereafter.
Less is more.
Ideally a top 20 or 30 list.
More than top 40? .. Ugh.

 

[Matsun]

I have a theory that great goaltending might've died out as a result of the salary cap and we havn't noticed yet.

 

[VanIslander]

One of the most celebratory 1-on-1 moments ever:

 

[VanIslander]

To be clear:

Hasek was #1 in save percentage every year for a six year stretch in the 1990s when his team had ZERO... ZERO hall of fame defensemen. He produced against stacked Detroit, Colorado, Dallas teams.

Hasek was THE superstar after Gretz & Mario, with midway Jagr.

It gets fuzzy from there...

(Lindros, Kariya, Forsberg)

... until the Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin generation...

 

[VanIslander]

5 minutes on the beach in late summer,...

70 saves...

enjoy:

Like swatting away mosquitoes.

(The reason Hasek had to make 70 saves to win was...
because Brodeur was rockin' decently on the other end.)

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Hasek was #1 in save percentage every year for a six year stretch in the 1990s when his team had ZERO... ZERO hall of fame defensemen.

Thought question that I haven't explored rigorously - has there been a study that shows whether or not the presence of quality defensive players increases or decreases their goaltenders' save percentage?

To do so, they would need to reduce the difficulty of the average shot faced.

I could make a reasonable argument either way.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I look forward to Mike Farkas and Tim Thomas.

I'm looking forward to that about as much as I'm looking forward to the battle for #1 OA coming down to a wearisome repetition of "but STATz & NUMBERz!"

Instead of 1-80 points, maybe points based on the area of the vote they appear? 8 for top 10, 1 for 71-80. Won't completely fix it but should at least make it less significant.

One of the Czech goalies is horrendous...I forget which one, but it'll be obvious on the re-watch.

1. @The Macho King's suggestion would also be an improvement on the status quo.

2. The Czechoslovak Goaltending 1/1b duo was Holeček/Dzurilla. Holeček has by far the better reputation, but Dzurilla has the more interesting biography.

You may see the Dzurilla ATD bio here:

Vladimir ("Maco") Dzurilla

22 Year career in European Leagues
14 Years an International for Czechoslovakia [1961-1973, and again in 1976 & 1977]

Born- Bratislava, Slovakia, August 2, 1942
Made Upper-Division league debut for venerable Slovak Firm Slovan Bratislava in 1960, as an 18-year-old
Became starter for Czechoslovak Team in 1962
Early International Highlight was 1965 World Championships .947 save percentage in Czechoslovakia's Silver Medal performance. Directorate Best Goaltender/Media All-Star Goaltender, likely choice for tournament MVP, if such an award was given.
Perhaps his most famous performance of the '60s was 1969 IIHF Worlds, where the Czechoslovak squad defeated the Soviet Union twice, ended the tournament tied with USSR & Sweden on 16 points, but wound up with Bronze on (apparently?) point-differential tiebreak. Jan Suchý, playing at white-hot peak, was a difference-maker in the first TCH-URS match, but Dzurilla proved to be man-of-the-match for the second encounter, a 2-0 shutout. For those Championships, Dzurilla split honors with Swedish Netminder Leif Holmqvist, with the latter awarded Directorate Best Goaltender, and 'Maco' named Media All-Star Goaltender.

Individual heroics aside, Dzurilla also had plenty of struggles versus the Soviets, and eventually became minority-partner in a Goalie-tandem with Jiří Holeček. He remained second on the depth-chart- but was often ready to step in, as he famously did in the 1972 Olympics, after the US lit up Holeček for three goals on 11 shots in the second period of their match. Dzurilla would carry on from that point, with a 6-2 defeat- again(st) the USSR being the only true blemish. Holeček would go on to re-focus & re-assert in the World Championships a month later- Dzurilla would at last get his World Championship Gold- but as a back-up.

Next three years present as something of a mystery in the Dzurilla portfolio- broomed out of Bratislava after a tepid 1972-73 Season, and also dropped from the National Team, he latched on with Brno and continued with some ordinary play. Eventually, Dzurilla broke out of his downward spiral, re-claimed a spot on his country's squad, and made a modest contribution, again as Holeček's back-up, in the 1976 World Championship, his second Gold.

Dzurilla would go on to grab worldwide Hockey headlines one more time- in the 1976 Canada Cup. Jiří Holeček had a performance-to-forget that tournament, and 'Maco' came in and ensured that the Czechoslovaks would be the first to establish their place in the final with a 29-save shutout against Canada- renowned as one of Hockey History's great international encounters. This forced the Canadians to have to beat the USSR to earn the right to rematch- which they did. When Canada played the Czechoslovaks again, it was Dzurilla's turn to be batted-out-of-the-box as the 1976 Canadians, arguably the greatest collection of talent ever wearing one uniform at the same time, blitzed Dzurilla with four first-period goals. Czechoslovakia naturally turned to Holeček the following game, but he gave up two goals in not much more than three minutes, and Dzurilla took matters the rest of the way, but ultimately succumbed in Overtime.

In 1977, Dzurilla would finally get World Championship Gold as (more-or-less) a starter, as he played in seven games to Holeček's four. In a karmic parallel of TCE's avoidance of the top-2 steps of the podium in 1969, the Soviets went into their final game merely needing to avoid losing against Sweden. Instead they fell, 3-1, freezing their standings points at 14 and allowing Czechoslovakia to achieve clear first on 15.

Now in career twilight, Vladimir Dzurilla played out his final three seasons in West Germany, where he was, by acclamation, held to be the best Goaltender in the leagues of that country- a grouping that once again included his old teammate, Jiří Holeček. After the end of his Hockey career, he took up Goaltender instruction in three different countries. Dzurilla was last seen in Hockey-action in 1995, in an Old-Timer Game in Stockholm, where the 50+ year-old was tapped Player of the Game. Before the summer was out, he passed away from a heart attack, less than a week shy of his 53rd birthday. He would be posthumously inducted into the salutatory (2nd) class of the IIHF Hall-of-Fame in 1998, along with his old colleague Holeček, in addition to Kharlamov, Firsov, Balderis, and Vasiliev (most notably).

Did you know?
[A Mother's Dreams] Dzurilla acquired a significant background in music during childhood- and his mother hoped that young Vladimir could make a career in music.
[Working Class Man] Dzurilla's working trade was refrigerator-repair.

ATD-Use: World-Class Goaltender who nonetheless has proven psychologically comfortable with back-up role. Not ideal for workhorse Regular Season volume, nor against teams that primarily attack in a crisp, lateral manner, he is nonetheless well-suited for spot-starts against teams that attack north-south, as well as use in smaller arenas that tend to induce that sort of playing-style. He is equally comfortable with starts after a Primary Goaltender's sub-optimal outing, and with relief-duty, giving focused effort regardless of the current score.

Hat-tips:
@DN28 (q.v.: HoH project, top non-NHL Europeans, particularly Round 2 Vote 7)
Elite Prospects (mostly for background)
Quant Hockey (less scope, but visibly more reliable for details than Elite Prospects)
Joe Pelletier's "International Hockey Legends"
Wikipedia (primarily for results of certain International Tourneys)

I'm not trying to bring my filthy ATD-ways over to this project- but one of the things I felt was interesting was that Dzurilla had a great mentality for being a back-up goaltender- and I've always believed that being at peace with a "second-fiddle" role is something that has been routinely undervalued in ATD.

This, by itself, counts for nothing in a project like this- but it's STILL a cool story.

GSAA is the exact stat I'm hoping we can do better than. It's better than save percentage but not that much better.

The best 70s goalies always look amazing in GSAA.

I've played around with the idea of GSA#3 (goals saved above the third place SV% finisher) as a better plumb-bob.

Final list of 40, Round 1 list submission of 80.

Hope it's not too late to consider shortening the list-length.

 

[Dingo]

Nah, I know he is awful. One of the 70s/80s guys is not good too, I never remember which. But he has no second save ability at all. Just goes all jellyfish after the first shooter's flinch...

sounds like Dzurilla, maybe. Got so much street cred because he beat Canada in 76.... don't think he did much else.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Would you mind collecting some research on him for the rest of us? Maybe I'm the only one behind the ball here, but he isn't on the first draft of names I have written down.

Well, I don’t really expect Myllys to receive any serious consideration for this project. His NHL stats are not just bad, they’re like historically awful. Of course the North Stars and Sharks team he appeared for weren’t exactly great, but still.

I’m biased towards Myllys, he’s generally considered the greatest player ever on my team (Luleå). He was a big deal, led the league in shutouts in five out of six consecutive seasons, and was once named SEL MVP.

He was the Team Finland starter for three Olympic tournaments, where they earned a silver and two bronze medals. He was also the starter for five World Championship teams, including the historic first gold winning team in 1995 where he was named goaltender of the tournament.

I don’t think his selling points will actually hold up that well against the 100 greatest goalies of all time… but I’d love it if someone actually could make a case for Myllys. Or at least shine some more light on why he’s such a legend both in Finland and Sweden, and whether he was actually great at the international level.

I was five when he arrived in Luleå, I saw him play several times but I was 12 at most. I remember having Ron Hextall as my favorite NHL goalie because the text and stats on the back sounded similar to Myllys: takes a lot of penalties and being the first goalies to shoot and score in their respective leagues. Myllys and Hextall both scored two goals. I mostly have memories of Myllys taking delay of game penalties because he frequently played the puck and would accidentally send it over the boards. But he was known for his temper, not wanting opposing players in his crease and using his stick against them.

I think I’ve read that both Tuukka Rask and Kari Lehtonen had Myllys as their idol growing up, and in Luleå he made playing goalie seem cool. We’ve become quite the goaltender factory in the generations since Myllys retired. Anders Nilsson and Filip Gustafsson came wholly or partly through our system, as did Jesper Wallstedt who’s considered the greatest Swedish goalie prospect since Henrik Lundqvist. Also, both Sweden goalies iced at the recent U18 Hlinka-Gretzky tournament are Luleå prospects eligible for the 2025 draft.

So, I don’t necessarily expect Myllys to appear on your lists of 100 goalies, but his legacy is pretty awesome.

 

[blogofmike]

We quickly identify how team dependent a goalie's accolades are...that's good. The margin is really thin. Six forwards and four d-men make postseason AS teams, the Vezina ballot has only been voted on for a fraction of its history and even that has just three slots, the available goalie stats are few and generally less important than other positions' numbers...it's very tough.

Also some older goalie stats may be less precise.



I watched the first two periods of this game when we were talking about league quality in the 70s vs the 80s. One thing that jumped out was that the boxscore said shots were 54-32.

Didn't seem like it though. Unless the 3rd period is non-stop end-to-end fun, I'm thinking the definition of a shot was very, very loose.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I'd also like to do a study on shot distances over time too. I think there's a lot to learn about scoring chance and shot quality over time. When I hit the lottery (not "if"), that's what I'll spend my time doing...