HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Michael Farkas]

Was looking into something else, and just happened to stumble upon this little tidbit of mild interest...

That Durnan’s feat is far greater than Connell’s goes without saying. If a goaler in the roaring 20’s was ever caught in an avalanche of rubber, as Durnan was during his last game in Boston, he would have hung up his skates forever. In those days they didn’t have to contend with four and five-man rushes, scrambles and screen shots as they do today. Although it is often boasted that goalers in the old days used to stop some 50 or 60 pucks per game, to this day nobody knows what constituted a shot on the net in those hectic games.

Frank Carlin, a pretty good hockey player in his day, and now the dean of amateur coaches in Canada, was talking about Durnan’s feat and comparing him with goalers of his day.

“I doubt very much that goalers of my time could stand up to the rubber that’s shot at goalees of today,” said Carlin, who now coaches the Montreal Royals. “In my day a defenseman never moved off his blueline to make rushes as they do today. All the goalers had to do was stand in their net and catch pucks and Durnan could do that anytime. No sir, a goaler today gets a lot more work than those oldies ever got.”

That's exactly what I was saying recently...right down to "what do these guys think a shot is?"

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes, that's correct! As far as I'm aware, Gardiner is the only goalie to captain a Stanley Cup winning team.

I'm not fact checking this, but just by dumb luck, I came across this in THN and thought I'd pass it along as it seems somewhat in your wheelhouse...

(Fan question) I’d like to ask you a question. Has there ever been any goal-keeper who has acted as a captain of an N.H.L. team. Since the captain is the only one who can argue with the referee and since the goalkeeper is on the ice ’during the entire 60 minutes of play, he has a better chance to see and discuss the plays with the official.

Eddie Adamow Winnipeg, Man.

(The late Charlie Gardiner was captain of the Chicago Black Hawks, and Bill Durnan is alternate captain of the Canadieus. Chuck Rayner was captain of the Rangers and Sugar Jim Henry has replaced him at the post now.)

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Was looking into something else, and just happened to stumble upon this little tidbit of mild interest...



That's exactly what I was saying recently...right down to "what do these guys think a shot is?"

My understanding is that they did only count shots on goal, but that by the end of the pre-forward pass rules, a large percentage of shots were low risk attempts from the blueline and out. So, any puck that reached the goalie was considered a shot.

No guarantees that I'm right on that, though...

 

[overpass]

I came across a 1949 article where Sylvio Mantha went more in-depth on the greatest goalies of all time. He picked George Hainsworth from old-time hockey and Bill Durnan from modern hockey.

Mantha may have had a Montreal bias in his selections. And he recited Hainsworth's statistical accomplishments as justification for him being the best ever, which may or may not be a good reason.

What is interesting is Mantha points out that the Montreal crowd never took to Hainsworth like they did to Vezina, citing Hainsworth's temperament (although I'm not quite sure what he's getting at when he said Hainsworth was "fanatique"). I get a hint of more language politics were at play, with the French-Canadian crowds connecting better with the French-Canadian goaltender.

La Patrie, March 27, 1949

The following is translated from French.
Sylvio Mantha, coach of the National club and former star defensive player of professional Canadiens, has great admiration for Bill Durnan, whom he considers the best goalie of modern times, but Mantha is nevertheless of the opinion that the famous George Hainsworth has no equal and he ranks him as the best of all time.

Sylvio admits that it is impossible to compare the exploits of today's athletes with those of yesterday's stars, for the simple reason that the rules of the game of hockey have changed too much since then. That's why, when we discuss hockey with the former Canadiens' player, there is no question of comparing today's times with the old days.

Mantha chooses Hainsworth as the all-time king of goalies because of the unsurpassable records that this former Canadiens and Toronto goaltender has accomplished. Hainsworth is known to have achieved 22 shutouts in a season of 44 games, allowing only 43 goals during the entire season and maintaining an extraordinary average of less than a goal a gain. This record is phenomenal alongside the record of 10 shutouts accomplished by Frank Brimsek of the Boston Bruins in 1938-39 and by Bill Durnan this season in seasons of 50 and 60 games, respectively.

The Nationals coach said that George Hainsworth never received the credit he deserved for his exploits because he was too fanatical for French Canadiens. That's why he wasn't as esteemed as Vezina, who was an idol to the Montreal crowds. After Hainsworth, Sylvio Mantha classes Chuck Gardiner of the Chicago Black Hawks second and Roy Worters of the old New York Americans third.

However, in modern times, Mantha finds Bill Durnan to be the best goalie to play in the National League. The composure of "Big Bill" especially amazes Vio. After Durnan, Mantha named Brimsek as second choice.

When speaking of players of the past and present, Mantha took the opportunity to speak about the lightning shot of Charlie Conacher, now the Chicago Black Hawks coach. "Roger Leger of the Canadiens has a shot that is really out of the ordinary," explained Mantha, "but it doesn't come close to the powerful shot that Conacher released at his best."

 

[MXD]

Amongst active netminders and/or recent retirees, did I miss someone?

Jonathan Quick
MAF
Carey Price
Henrik Lundqvist
Ryan Miller
Andrei Vasilevskyi
Igor Shesterkin
Pekka Rinne
Connor Hellebuyck
Brayden Holtby
Sergei Bobrovsky
Tuukka Rask
Roberto Luongo
Juuse Saros
Semyon Varlamov (who has been moved up)


(Thought about, but not ranking as of now)
- Ilya Sorokin (which I won't rank)
- Corey Crawford
- Craig Anderson
- Cam Ward
- Jaroslav Halak
- Linus Ullmark
- Robin Lehner
- Ben Bishop (probably good enough for the list with a more substantive career, but 100 less games than Holtby, whose career isn't exactly long in the first place, and generally inferior to him in every aspect as well, requires a decent distance to Holtby; not in same stratosphere as Saros in terms of level)

Please be serious
- Antti Niemi
- Brian Elliott

 

[Michael Farkas]

Amongst active netminders and/or recent retirees, did I miss someone?

John Gibson
Cory Schneider

I have 10 spots remaining...but I have no more names that aren't crossed out. So I either need to add some guys I dislike or find some new goalies...maybe I'll scour some 60's and 70's World Championships for a bit...?

I'm gonna submit a list today regardless because now I'm probably holding this up at this point...

EDIT: Hmmm...Varlamov, that's an interesting name.

 

[MXD]

John Gibson
Cory Schneider

I have 10 spots remaining...but I have no more names that aren't crossed out. So I either need to add some guys I dislike or find some new goalies...maybe I'll scour some 60's and 70's World Championships for a bit...?

I'm gonna submit a list today regardless because now I'm probably holding this up at this point...

... Yeah, thanks for Schneider, that I had dismissed out of hand early on but now I realize I've been ranking guys that are possibly worse than him on second thought.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

My understanding is that they did only count shots on goal, but that by the end of the pre-forward pass rules, a large percentage of shots were low risk attempts from the blueline and out. So, any puck that reached the goalie was considered a shot.

No guarantees that I'm right on that, though...

The NHL briefly recorded shots and saves in 1928-29, it's even noted on the Wikipedia page for that season. I unfortunately don't know the specific source (possibly the book linked in the Wiki footnotes), but somebody posted the data on these boards at one point or another. It covers most of the games that year but not all of them:

Canadian Division:

Goalie	Team(s)	Games	Shots Against	Saves	Goals Against	Save Percentage
Walsh	Maroons- NY Americans	10​	363​	355​	8​	0.978​
Worters	NY Americans	28​	1156​	1126​	30​	0.974​
Hainsworth	Canadiens	33​	1132​	1095​	37​	0.967​
Benedict	Maroons	28​	1064​	1025​	39​	0.963​
Chabot	Toronto	34​	1357​	1299​	58​	0.957​
Connell	Ottawa	32​	1163​	1112​	51​	0.956​
Himes	NY Americans	1​	60​	57​	3​	0.950​
Grant	Toronto	1​	35​	33​	2​	0.942​
Forbes	NY Americans	1​	24​	21​	3​	0.875​

American Division:

Goalie	Team(s)	Games	Shots Against	Saves	Goals Against	Save Percentage
Roach	NY Rangers	33​	1313​	1271​	42​	0.968​
Dolson	Detroit	33​	1302​	1257​	45​	0.965​
Thompson	Boston	33​	1075​	1036​	39​	0.963​
Miller	Pittsburgh	32​	1223​	1173​	50​	0.959​
Gardiner	Chicago	33​	1369​	1301​	59​	0.956​

That's a league average save percentage of .962, which definitely supports the claim that the vast majority of shot attempts were low danger attempts, and making saves was far easier in the pre-forward passing era.

 

[Michael Farkas]

... Yeah, thanks for Schneider, that I had dismissed out of hand early on but now I realize I've been ranking guys that are possibly worse than him on second thought.

Yeah, we just made a good trade I think.

Varlamov has the ability to steal games. Very mobile. Very strong puck tracker. But took a long time to learn how to catch pucks in the NHL. His blocker was better than his glove, the latter was almost like it was used for balance (like a stick), it was almost performative. He can't be too, too far away from Bobrovsky really. Bob has the higher peak, but he has lower floor. Varly is probably a better puck tracker actually now that I think about it.

Schneider is one of the most positionally excellent goalies of the last little while. He's almost boringly on point. Lacks mobility. Should be near Olaf Kolzig, Dan Bouchard types I'd guess...

 

[MXD]

EDIT: Hmmm...Varlamov, that's an interesting name.

Well, here's a guy that, I don't think anyone thought he was the best in the league or anything like that. BUT, he's been pretty consistent with teams of varying quality, for a rather long period of time. Was well perceived enough to fetch a mid-round 1st rounder, something not many goalies did at that point in time. Generally passed eye test (mine at least).

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, couldn't agree more. He should have been on my list...and he is now. 9 to go.

 

[MXD]

Yeah, couldn't agree more. He should have been on my list...and he is now. 9 to go.

... And he shouldn't have been on my "(Thought about, but not ranking as of now)" category on the same footing as someone like Cam Ward.

 

[jigglysquishy]

How many lists are we at now?

 

[seventieslord]

Amongst active netminders and/or recent retirees, did I miss someone?

Jonathan Quick
MAF
Carey Price
Henrik Lundqvist
Ryan Miller
Andrei Vasilevskyi
Igor Shesterkin
Pekka Rinne
Connor Hellebuyck
Brayden Holtby
Sergei Bobrovsky
Tuukka Rask
Roberto Luongo
Juuse Saros
Semyon Varlamov (who has been moved up)


(Thought about, but not ranking as of now)
- Ilya Sorokin (which I won't rank)
- Corey Crawford
- Craig Anderson
- Cam Ward
- Jaroslav Halak
- Linus Ullmark
- Robin Lehner
- Ben Bishop (probably good enough for the list with a more substantive career, but 100 less games than Holtby, whose career isn't exactly long in the first place, and generally inferior to him in every aspect as well, requires a decent distance to Holtby; not in same stratosphere as Saros in terms of level)

Please be serious
- Antti Niemi
- Brian Elliott

In case anyone has been wondering... YES, i will be submitting a list. I've been paying attention.

I'm listing everyone in the top list, except Shesterkin. Can't get over that miniscule career GP number at that time. We've got 140 years of history to cover here and I can't make room.

From the 2nd list, only Crawford is listed.

From the 3rd list... come on

 

[Professor What]

How many lists are we at now?

Last I heard from Dr John, we had 12 submitted, and more expected. He said he had to work for a while today though, so expect a few hours with no updates as he'll get to the new PMs and lists when he gets off.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I saw you around seventies, I was waiting for you to keep me in line with my list and process haha

Truth be told, Igor Shestyorkin originally hit my list at 19. I'm a big, big fan. But it's true, he doesn't have a super long body of work and that should be considered to some degree (though, every season in the league has been impactful...which at four in a row or even four out of a five, is a number that most of these goalies probably can't lay claim to).

I bumped him down a bit with other goalies that don't have a lot of games played themselves...like Durnan, Gardiner and Kiprusoff.

 

[BM67]

Here are the yearly SV% totals for the games I found with shot totals:

Regular Season

Season	Team	GP	Min	W	L	T/OT	GA	GAA	Shots	Saves	SV%	ShO	SOG/60	H GP	H Min	H W	H L	H T/OT	H GA	H GAA	H Shots	H Saves	H SV%	H ShO	H SOG/60	R GP	R Min	R W	R L	R T/OT	R GA	R GAA	R Shots	R Saves	R SV%	R ShO	R SOG/60
1930-31	NHL	230	14300:00	97	97	36	537	2.25	7449	6912	0.928	32	31.25	117	7150:00	51	46	18	244	2.05	3562	3318	0.931	14	29.89	116	7150:00	46	51	18	293	2.46	3887	3594	0.925	18	32.62
1931-32	NHL	132	8320:00	51	51	30	292	2.11	4370	4078	0.933	19	31.51	66	4160:00	34	17	15	121	1.75	2011	1890	0.940	13	29.00	66	4160:00	17	34	15	171	2.47	2359	2188	0.928	6	34.02
1932-33	NHL	246	15340:00	105	105	36	588	2.30	8123	7535	0.928	35	31.77	124	7670:00	73	32	18	251	1.96	3772	3521	0.933	23	29.51	125	7670:00	32	73	18	337	2.64	4351	4014	0.923	12	34.04
1933-34	NHL	364	22878:00	150	150	64	899	2.36	11608	10709	0.923	42	30.44	183	11438:00	98	52	32	386	2.02	5484	5098	0.930	26	28.76	184	11440:00	52	98	32	513	2.69	6124	5611	0.916	16	32.12
1934-35	NHL	374	23140:00	164	164	46	946	2.45	11946	11000	0.921	49	30.97	188	11570:00	93	71	23	439	2.28	5700	5261	0.923	28	29.56	187	11570:00	71	93	23	507	2.63	6246	5739	0.919	21	32.39
Total	NHL	1346	83978:00	567	567	212	3262	2.33	43496	40234	0.925	177	31.08	678	41988:00	349	218	106	1441	2.06	20529	19088	0.930	104	29.34	678	41990:00	218	349	106	1821	2.60	22967	21146	0.921	73	32.82

Playoffs

Playoffs	Team	GP	Min	W	L	T/OT	GA	GAA	Shots	Saves	SV%	ShO	SOG/60	H GP	H Min	H W	H L	H T/OT	H GA	H GAA	H Shots	H Saves	H SV%	H ShO	H SOG/60	R GP	R Min	R W	R L	R T/OT	R GA	R GAA	R Shots	R Saves	R SV%	R ShO	R SOG/60
1931	NHL	14	889:40	6	6	2	21	1.42	468	447	0.955	3	31.56	7	444:50	4	2	1	7	0.94	192	185	0.964	2	25.90	7	444:50	2	4	1	14	1.89	276	262	0.949	1	37.23
1932	NHL	22	1355:58	10	10	2	60	2.65	810	750	0.926	3	35.84	11	677:59	8	2	1	25	2.21	357	332	0.930	3	31.59	11	677:59	2	8	1	35	3.10	453	418	0.923	0	40.09
1933	NHL	30	2092:02	14	14	2	61	1.75	1122	1061	0.946	5	32.18	15	1046:01	8	6	1	27	1.55	491	464	0.945	2	28.16	15	1046:01	6	8	1	34	1.95	631	597	0.946	3	36.19
1934	NHL	30	1927:08	13	13	4	57	1.77	963	906	0.941	5	29.98	15	963:34	3	10	2	38	2.37	459	421	0.917	3	28.58	15	963:34	10	3	2	19	1.18	504	485	0.962	2	31.38
1935	NHL	26	1649:06	10	10	6	44	1.60	836	792	0.947	6	30.42	13	824:33	5	5	3	21	1.53	417	396	0.950	3	30.34	13	824:33	5	5	3	23	1.67	439	416	0.948	3	31.94
Total	NHL	122	7913:54	53	53	16	243	1.84	4199	3956	0.942	22	31.84	61	3956:57	28	25	8	118	1.79	1916	1798	0.938	13	29.05	61	3956:57	25	28	8	125	1.90	2303	2178	0.946	9	34.92

31 shots is a little higher than the average from the NHL official records from 55 on, but not by more than a couple of shots.

The high SV% are harder to believe, but with no slapshots, and at least for a short time it was illegal to screen the goalie, they probably aren't too out of line with a GAA around 2.

There was also a rule penalizing goalies for freezing the puck as well for a few years.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Yeah, we are getting to 17 lists at the very least. There's three others who have expressed interest that I haven't heard from in some time, so I'll reach out to them again, but it's close to 'now or never' time on those. Screening will start very soon and then we'll get a move on...

 

[Michael Farkas]

at least for a short time it was illegal to screen the goalie

What's this? I've never heard of this one before. Any literature on the subject somewhere? Was it handled like the crease rule in international play?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, we are getting to 17 lists at the very least. There's three others who have expressed interest that I haven't heard from in some time, so I'll reach out to them again, but it's close to 'now or never' time on those. Screening will start very soon and then we'll get a move on...

With the addition of Varlamov and Leif Holmqvist, I have just 8 spots left (they will not be going to Ylonen or holy piss, Valtonen...yuck) and I have to ref tonight. so if I have to call on my bubble cross-outs I will...I'm doing one last video sweep to see if anyone doesn't suck and then my list will come in and destroy your aggregation, in good faith...

 

[MXD]

Just to get help "proofreading" my list further, and if it serves Mr. FarKarakas, so be it.

The "Contemporary with Jose Theodore but retired since a while" group. That feels really random, but it fits the period of netminders that I have more than a passing memory of watching.

IN :
Tim Thomas
Patrick Roy
Nikolai Khabibulin
Ed Belfour
Miikka Kiprusoff
John Vanbiesbrouck
Curtis Joseph
Dominik Hasek
Evgeni Nabokov
Grant Fuhr
Tom Barrasso
Martin Brodeur
Olaf Kolzig
Mike Richter
Arturs Irbe

NOT RANKED, as of now

Guy Hebert
Jose Theodore
Jon Casey
Felix Potvin
Marty Turco
JS Giguère
Ilya Bryzgalov
Tomas Vokoun
Sean Burke
Tommy Salo
Ron Tugnutt
Roman Turek
Chris Osgood
Jeff Hackett
Darren Puppa
Bill Ranford
Mike Vernon
Kelly Hrudey
Ron Hextall
Kirk McLean
Tim Chevaldae
Chris Terrerri
Andy Moog
Dwayne Roloson
Nicklas Backstrom

On surface level, of that group : Vokoun feels like the closest to the list, while Potvin, Hebert and (of all people) Hrudey made it to second thoughts and look, superficially, like decent candidates.

ARE YOU SERIOUS
Jim Carey
Byron Dafoe

 

[seventieslord]

Oh shit. You need a top 80, not 100. Yikes. Yeah, some of those guys may not get listed, after all...

 

[BM67]

What's this? I've never heard of this one before. Any literature on the subject somewhere? Was it handled like the crease rule in international play?

1931-32Though there is no record of a team attempting to play with two goaltenders on the ice, a rule was instituted which stated that each team was allowed only one goaltender on the ice at one time. Attacking players forbidden to impede the movement or obstruct the vision of opposing goaltenders. Defending players with the exception of the goaltender forbidden from falling on the puck within 10 feet of the net.

They don't say when the rule was removed.

I only recall one story about it being a stupid rule, after a goal was disallowed because of it.

 

[MXD]

Oh shit. You need a top 80, not 100. Yikes. Yeah, some of those guys may not get listed, after all...

I just wanted to make sure no one replied something like "Have you thought of Kirk McLean"? I'm super typo/clerial mistake prone

(Then again I'm a bit wary of someone replying "Have you thought of Patrick Lalime and Bob Essensa")

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I just wanted to make sure no one replied something like "Have you thought of Kirk McLean"?

I appreciate when y'all include these items just to ensure that I'm still reading.