HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Michael Farkas]

Was looking into something else, and just happened to stumble upon this little tidbit of mild interest...

That Durnan’s feat is far greater than Connell’s goes without saying. If a goaler in the roaring 20’s was ever caught in an avalanche of rubber, as Durnan was during his last game in Boston, he would have hung up his skates forever. In those days they didn’t have to contend with four and five-man rushes, scrambles and screen shots as they do today. Although it is often boasted that goalers in the old days used to stop some 50 or 60 pucks per game, to this day nobody knows what constituted a shot on the net in those hectic games.

Frank Carlin, a pretty good hockey player in his day, and now the dean of amateur coaches in Canada, was talking about Durnan’s feat and comparing him with goalers of his day.

“I doubt very much that goalers of my time could stand up to the rubber that’s shot at goalees of today,” said Carlin, who now coaches the Montreal Royals. “In my day a defenseman never moved off his blueline to make rushes as they do today. All the goalers had to do was stand in their net and catch pucks and Durnan could do that anytime. No sir, a goaler today gets a lot more work than those oldies ever got.”

That's exactly what I was saying recently...right down to "what do these guys think a shot is?"

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yes, that's correct! As far as I'm aware, Gardiner is the only goalie to captain a Stanley Cup winning team.

I'm not fact checking this, but just by dumb luck, I came across this in THN and thought I'd pass it along as it seems somewhat in your wheelhouse...

(Fan question) I’d like to ask you a question. Has there ever been any goal-keeper who has acted as a captain of an N.H.L. team. Since the captain is the only one who can argue with the referee and since the goalkeeper is on the ice ’during the entire 60 minutes of play, he has a better chance to see and discuss the plays with the official.

Eddie Adamow Winnipeg, Man.

(The late Charlie Gardiner was captain of the Chicago Black Hawks, and Bill Durnan is alternate captain of the Canadieus. Chuck Rayner was captain of the Rangers and Sugar Jim Henry has replaced him at the post now.)

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Was looking into something else, and just happened to stumble upon this little tidbit of mild interest...



That's exactly what I was saying recently...right down to "what do these guys think a shot is?"

My understanding is that they did only count shots on goal, but that by the end of the pre-forward pass rules, a large percentage of shots were low risk attempts from the blueline and out. So, any puck that reached the goalie was considered a shot.

No guarantees that I'm right on that, though...

 

[overpass]

I came across a 1949 article where Sylvio Mantha went more in-depth on the greatest goalies of all time. He picked George Hainsworth from old-time hockey and Bill Durnan from modern hockey.

Mantha may have had a Montreal bias in his selections. And he recited Hainsworth's statistical accomplishments as justification for him being the best ever, which may or may not be a good reason.

What is interesting is Mantha points out that the Montreal crowd never took to Hainsworth like they did to Vezina, citing Hainsworth's temperament (although I'm not quite sure what he's getting at when he said Hainsworth was "fanatique"). I get a hint of more language politics were at play, with the French-Canadian crowds connecting better with the French-Canadian goaltender.

La Patrie, March 27, 1949

The following is translated from French.
Sylvio Mantha, coach of the National club and former star defensive player of professional Canadiens, has great admiration for Bill Durnan, whom he considers the best goalie of modern times, but Mantha is nevertheless of the opinion that the famous George Hainsworth has no equal and he ranks him as the best of all time.

Sylvio admits that it is impossible to compare the exploits of today's athletes with those of yesterday's stars, for the simple reason that the rules of the game of hockey have changed too much since then. That's why, when we discuss hockey with the former Canadiens' player, there is no question of comparing today's times with the old days.

Mantha chooses Hainsworth as the all-time king of goalies because of the unsurpassable records that this former Canadiens and Toronto goaltender has accomplished. Hainsworth is known to have achieved 22 shutouts in a season of 44 games, allowing only 43 goals during the entire season and maintaining an extraordinary average of less than a goal a gain. This record is phenomenal alongside the record of 10 shutouts accomplished by Frank Brimsek of the Boston Bruins in 1938-39 and by Bill Durnan this season in seasons of 50 and 60 games, respectively.

The Nationals coach said that George Hainsworth never received the credit he deserved for his exploits because he was too fanatical for French Canadiens. That's why he wasn't as esteemed as Vezina, who was an idol to the Montreal crowds. After Hainsworth, Sylvio Mantha classes Chuck Gardiner of the Chicago Black Hawks second and Roy Worters of the old New York Americans third.

However, in modern times, Mantha finds Bill Durnan to be the best goalie to play in the National League. The composure of "Big Bill" especially amazes Vio. After Durnan, Mantha named Brimsek as second choice.

When speaking of players of the past and present, Mantha took the opportunity to speak about the lightning shot of Charlie Conacher, now the Chicago Black Hawks coach. "Roger Leger of the Canadiens has a shot that is really out of the ordinary," explained Mantha, "but it doesn't come close to the powerful shot that Conacher released at his best."

 

[MXD]

Amongst active netminders and/or recent retirees, did I miss someone?

Jonathan Quick
MAF
Carey Price
Henrik Lundqvist
Ryan Miller
Andrei Vasilevskyi
Igor Shesterkin
Pekka Rinne
Connor Hellebuyck
Brayden Holtby
Sergei Bobrovsky
Tuukka Rask
Roberto Luongo
Juuse Saros
Semyon Varlamov (who has been moved up)


(Thought about, but not ranking as of now)
- Ilya Sorokin (which I won't rank)
- Corey Crawford
- Craig Anderson
- Cam Ward
- Jaroslav Halak
- Linus Ullmark
- Robin Lehner
- Ben Bishop (probably good enough for the list with a more substantive career, but 100 less games than Holtby, whose career isn't exactly long in the first place, and generally inferior to him in every aspect as well, requires a decent distance to Holtby; not in same stratosphere as Saros in terms of level)

Please be serious
- Antti Niemi
- Brian Elliott

 

[Michael Farkas]

Amongst active netminders and/or recent retirees, did I miss someone?

John Gibson
Cory Schneider

I have 10 spots remaining...but I have no more names that aren't crossed out. So I either need to add some guys I dislike or find some new goalies...maybe I'll scour some 60's and 70's World Championships for a bit...?

I'm gonna submit a list today regardless because now I'm probably holding this up at this point...

EDIT: Hmmm...Varlamov, that's an interesting name.

 

[MXD]

John Gibson
Cory Schneider

I have 10 spots remaining...but I have no more names that aren't crossed out. So I either need to add some guys I dislike or find some new goalies...maybe I'll scour some 60's and 70's World Championships for a bit...?

I'm gonna submit a list today regardless because now I'm probably holding this up at this point...

... Yeah, thanks for Schneider, that I had dismissed out of hand early on but now I realize I've been ranking guys that are possibly worse than him on second thought.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

My understanding is that they did only count shots on goal, but that by the end of the pre-forward pass rules, a large percentage of shots were low risk attempts from the blueline and out. So, any puck that reached the goalie was considered a shot.

No guarantees that I'm right on that, though...

The NHL briefly recorded shots and saves in 1928-29, it's even noted on the Wikipedia page for that season. I unfortunately don't know the specific source (possibly the book linked in the Wiki footnotes), but somebody posted the data on these boards at one point or another. It covers most of the games that year but not all of them:

Canadian Division:

Goalie	Team(s)	Games	Shots Against	Saves	Goals Against	Save Percentage
Walsh	Maroons- NY Americans	10​	363​	355​	8​	0.978​
Worters	NY Americans	28​	1156​	1126​	30​	0.974​
Hainsworth	Canadiens	33​	1132​	1095​	37​	0.967​
Benedict	Maroons	28​	1064​	1025​	39​	0.963​
Chabot	Toronto	34​	1357​	1299​	58​	0.957​
Connell	Ottawa	32​	1163​	1112​	51​	0.956​
Himes	NY Americans	1​	60​	57​	3​	0.950​
Grant	Toronto	1​	35​	33​	2​	0.942​
Forbes	NY Americans	1​	24​	21​	3​	0.875​

American Division:

Goalie	Team(s)	Games	Shots Against	Saves	Goals Against	Save Percentage
Roach	NY Rangers	33​	1313​	1271​	42​	0.968​
Dolson	Detroit	33​	1302​	1257​	45​	0.965​
Thompson	Boston	33​	1075​	1036​	39​	0.963​
Miller	Pittsburgh	32​	1223​	1173​	50​	0.959​
Gardiner	Chicago	33​	1369​	1301​	59​	0.956​

That's a league average save percentage of .962, which definitely supports the claim that the vast majority of shot attempts were low danger attempts, and making saves was far easier in the pre-forward passing era.

 

[Michael Farkas]

... Yeah, thanks for Schneider, that I had dismissed out of hand early on but now I realize I've been ranking guys that are possibly worse than him on second thought.

Yeah, we just made a good trade I think.

Varlamov has the ability to steal games. Very mobile. Very strong puck tracker. But took a long time to learn how to catch pucks in the NHL. His blocker was better than his glove, the latter was almost like it was used for balance (like a stick), it was almost performative. He can't be too, too far away from Bobrovsky really. Bob has the higher peak, but he has lower floor. Varly is probably a better puck tracker actually now that I think about it.

Schneider is one of the most positionally excellent goalies of the last little while. He's almost boringly on point. Lacks mobility. Should be near Olaf Kolzig, Dan Bouchard types I'd guess...

 

[MXD]

EDIT: Hmmm...Varlamov, that's an interesting name.

Well, here's a guy that, I don't think anyone thought he was the best in the league or anything like that. BUT, he's been pretty consistent with teams of varying quality, for a rather long period of time. Was well perceived enough to fetch a mid-round 1st rounder, something not many goalies did at that point in time. Generally passed eye test (mine at least).

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, couldn't agree more. He should have been on my list...and he is now. 9 to go.

 

[MXD]

Yeah, couldn't agree more. He should have been on my list...and he is now. 9 to go.

... And he shouldn't have been on my "(Thought about, but not ranking as of now)" category on the same footing as someone like Cam Ward.