HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

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How many goalies should make the final list?

  • Final list of 60, Round 1 list submission of 80

    Votes: 21 75.0%
  • Final list of 80, Round 1 list submission of 100

    Votes: 7 25.0%

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Michael Farkas

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Lol. Beezer was not C+. He was A-/B+.
My "A" list is only 9 players long and I'm back into the 1930's on film right now. I don't think Beezer is gonna get to "A" haha

B+ puts him with Dryden, Bower, Brimsek, and Parent. I don't think that's a match either...

EDIT: To Sentinel: We're not ranking "heroes". Whether they have big, illegal equipment or whether they get slightly out played by Kirk McLean in the Final. I don't expect many lists to have Cam Ward, Bill Ranford, Matt Murray, or Mike Karakas either...
 

Michael Farkas

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Unrelated: Before the War, and therefore, well before television...the NHL didn't care at all if you had two teams wearing dark jerseys or two teams wearing white jerseys. That has added an element of complexity to the 100+ film reels and clips I'm going through...

I can officially say I've actually seen the New York Americans, the Montreal Maroons, and, uhh, Tiny Thompson in action...in motion. This nerdiest day I've had in a while haha
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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Boys, I'm so sorry to do this...

I really do not like (I won't say "hate", but maybe...) Tony Esposito.

That brings me to this unfortunateness...

The Art of In Goaltending

I was at the Armory - a prominent (formerly, more prominent) New York City art fair - last weekend. At one of the booths, I took note of a large abstract-inspired piece that was clearly intended to be Vladislav Tretiak. So I spoke to the gallerist there and I told him as much about the subject matter of some of the other goalies that were painted as he told me about the art and the artist.

The artist's name is Rob Ober - a 60's born West German man - who attended games in his youth, apparently. I haven't met him yet, but I apparently have a fairly close connect. I'd link his instagram here, but it contains depictions that I don't think are within the rules of the board, so I'll play it safe and not...I don't get any commission anyway haha

So what the hell am I talking about?

Great question.

Artists are not ranked in order of their stroke or use of color. There are no bonus points for mixed material pieces (in fact, I think quite the opposite, but that's another story).

Certainly technique is a factor. But there's more than just that...there's also timing and innovation.

There's nothing particularly novel about a soup can. But the timing and innovation started a movement.

I look at my "A" list of goaltenders (again, not having looked deeply at the O6 yet)...

Dominik Hasek - unique in his use of vertical angles backed by freakish athleticism and reflexes. He aggressively played the percentages in the highest danger areas like no one dared to before. Innovator.

Martin Brodeur - Mastered the art of stickhandling. Turned rebounds into breakout passes. Had unreal anticipation for the game to the point that he baited shooters into shots he was already ready for. A hybrid style that strayed away from the butterfly in Quebec. Innovator.

Patrick Roy - The aforementioned butterfly, but combined with skating and a competitive fire that took it to another level from Glenn Hall. Innovator, or at least, mastered the innovation and brought it to the forefront (Warhol wasn't the first kitschy pop art guy...he was just the first to really know how to market it and live the lifestyle...Roy may be Warhol).

Jacq.........................wait a minute. Glenn Hall ---> Patrick Roy. Someone very prominent is missing in the butterfly timeline.

Tony Esposito

Why is he missing?

Because he wasn't that good at it. He didn't advent or advance the butterfly...he stole it as part of a patchwork of guessing and poor technique. Maybe I'll lose the art references here in case someone knows who Elaine Sturtevant is...you ever tell a joke from a comedian whose timing and rhythm you can't match? That's Tony Esposito for me. He just took what the last Blackhawks goalie did and tried to mimic it.

He's not the best skater. He's so unbelievably impatient and unpoised. He makes the first move every single time and cannot account for it with his skill. Rebounds are a mess. Second save process is a mess. I don't know if we have the data, but I bet if you did an ELO ranking of shooters, I'd wager that Tony O gets beat by the upper tier more often than any other. The bad players might not have had the skill to figure out how to deal with him kneeling and sliding out at them, but the skilled players had no trouble at all.

Enter: His playoff record. Where you're normally playing better players on the whole. I mean, who loses 18 out of 19 playoff games? He won 12 of his last 46.

Watch the splits...

1970 - He's new on the scene. No one knows what to make of it. Tony Esposito 1969-70 Splits | Hockey-Reference.com

1971 - The O6 teams with talent - Montreal, Boston, New York. They killed him. They're getting two extra goals per game on him, effectively.

1972 - The Hawks generally try to hide him from these teams. Giving Gary Smith Boston four times, Montreal three times, New York twice.

1973 - Doesn't play the full slate, but not a low amount either. He has a good year. Adds a half a goal per game in the playoffs. But it's really more than that, because that number is fluffed by the hapless Blues in the first round.

1974 - Same basic deal. He has a good year. Adds a whole goal in the playoffs. Again, fluffed by playing pre-Triple Crown Los Angeles in the first round. He gets slaughtered by Boston.

1975 and on...I think everyone basically figured it out that could.
The splits are stark:
sub-2 GAAs against Atlanta Kansas City, California, Washington, Minnesota, etc.

3+ against Boston and Buffalo
4's and 5's (!) against Montreal, Pittsburgh, and New York.

And I know that bad teams are bad and good teams are good. And I looked at other goalies around this time and this effect does exist, but it doesn't appear to be quite as stark of a difference. Plus...the unscionably bad playoff record makes a lot of sense now.

The smartest team had a sense too. They left Esposito exposed in, effectively, a waiver draft in 1969 after giving him a shot in the NHL.

He was a guesser, he had poor anchoring, poor rebound control, he was not in control of the game. And the H-R page on him makes it look like he was elite or near elite for his whole career, but he wasn't...those AS-5 and AS-6's or whatever are just discount rack atta-boys for a player that played 15-20 more games than any other goalie in the league. They're largely irrelevant and way off the lead.

And yes, given the state of things at the time and his penchant for playing the majority of games (meaning, more expansion teams and dumpster fires) his save pct. from 1974 to 1980 is 4th in the NHL. But his pocket-sized backup Mike Veisor's is 7th - and that includes him having to stay in for 12 goals on 36 shots vs. Montreal in 1975. If Esposito got that game, Veisor would be 5th, right next to Espo.

I'm not asking you not to put him on your lists...I'm not saying he won't be on mine....somewhere...lower than you have him certainly. But where ever he was at on the top 40 list last time is way too high. Whatever the number he's ranked at, I'd say double it...

It's unpopular, I'm an idiot, he's in the HOF, he's won Vezinas...I know. I'm aware. Whatever research you do for this, dig a little deeper here...don't give him a free pass. Don't ignore the massive playoff red flag. Don't ignore that Montreal chose Rogie Vachon and 40 year old Gump Worsley over him for their protected slots in the waiver draft or that no one was willing to pony up an asset to trade for him. Or that the very farm team he was with before the NHL chose Phil Myre over him for the playoffs. Or that he switched to represent the United States in order to get playing time in the 1981 Canada Cup. Or that he had to wear a hammock between his legs to cheat his way through bad technique.

He's Phil's little brother that happened to play a lot of games for an iconic franchise that was relevant for a bit with his goofball antics and their Original Six relics.

Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final - up 2-0 with 25 minutes left. And this is what you come up with?



There's a reason he didn't win.


good lord, sturtevant. savage
 
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VanIslander

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In my high school, the guys who got C+ were not on the football, soccer, basketball, Track & Field, United Nations, Debate or any other team.

C+ was what guys who did nothing great got.

John Vanbiesbrouck was far above that.

 

Hockey Stathead

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Ran this recently and thought it might be interesting.

Figure that these are the goalies who teams thought would be the #1 going into the season (or at least be the better goalie in a 1A/1B situation) most often and only subsequent injury/underperformance could change that. Also, maybe guys who had good adaptability to different situations over time.

1.png
 

DN28

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Jan 2, 2014
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Is there any international guys I should be aware of before, say, NHL expansion...?

Seth Martin I guess qualifies...anyone else on lists or watchlists?

EDIT: A lot of goalie talk in this 1964 hockey magazine article, text version here (there's a legit version if you don't want to read it like this): Full text of "Hockey 1964"
No one. Though Bohumil Modrý deserves an honourable mention. He was a sort of European Percy LeSueur. He teached public about the goaltending basics, what are the angles and why are important, how should a goalie use the stick etc. He impressed a lot of Canadians and influenced subsequent European goalies playing through the 1950s into the early 1960s.

Tragic career. Started to play in late 1930s. Then his athletic prime likely occured during the WW2. Modrý played after the war, maintained his reputation as a goalie without equals in the Europe and then communist government imprisoned him in 1950. They put him in uranium mines which led to his early death.

He'd be my choice for the best goalie in Europe 1900-1960. That's the best I can say about him.
 

Michael Farkas

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n my high school, the guys who got C+ were not on the football, soccer, basketball, Track & Field, United Nations, Debate or any other team.

C+ was what guys who did nothing great got.
Right, that's in a high school...full of mostly average folks who won't do anything. This grading scale is based on the best in history at hockey, so the sights are naturally adjusted. Otherwise, everyone is an "A".

If ya boy Hasek is an "A", then surely Vanbiesbrouck can't also be an "A" or else we're not getting anywhere, ya know?
 
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VanIslander

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If ya boy Hasek is an "A", then surely Vanbiesbrouck can't also be an "A" or else we're not getting anywhere, ya know?
One is clearly an A+.

The other a B+/A-.

We're grading on a curve, so the latter could get no more than a B-.

If your teacher hands out more than 2 or 3 A+'s then he's a sugar salesman. Homer!
 
Last edited:

bobholly39

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Ok - final list is submitted.

I did my best - but I'm sure it's absolutely horrible all things considered....it's really hard in the bottom half. Also kept running into career vs peak vs ability in my rankings, and wasn't sure which one was, or should be more important.

Hopefully I didn't leave anyone off too glaring.

Looking forward to this.
 
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Dr John Carlson

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Dec 21, 2011
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How many lists are we at right now, @Dr John Carlson ?
- 10 are locked in
- 6 more will for sure be coming in by the end of Monday
- 2 more in the 'probably' category
- 4 more in the 'maybe' category
- 3 or 4 more in the 'hoping but not likely' category

I'll have to crack the whip if there's anybody in the second and third categories who I don't hear from by the end of Monday! I mean business!
 

Michael Farkas

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Dumping notes here....feel free to disregard, but outside of 3:30 am to 8:30 am, I've been watching old, old film clips for the last 24+ hours...

Chuck Rayner - This is that third d-man style I was talking about. He held his stick like a d-man more often than not. (Later note: This becomes much more common in the early 30's, he's a holdover I guess). He would also try to lead the rush at times, but wasn't very good at it. This is not a good goaltender. He's a shot blocking d-man with more pads. That 1950 Rangers team is a lot better than it looks on paper...Laprade, Leswick, Raleigh (though slow and relegated to being more of a passer), Lund are all surprisingly good talents. Rayner blew two goals leads in games 6 and 7 with the Rangers having a chance to win a Cup. Even the winner looks like a fairly average backhander from Pete Babando.

Gerry McNeil - This is actually a very good goalie. He's mobile, but composed and balanced and anchored. Very quick. Very smart. Still battles for rebounds despite his stature. Reports at the time were that he retired after 1955 because he had a great job at Molson. He later returned to play locally in Quebec, where he was quite successful at lower levels. If Seth Martin gets a pass because he wanted to be a chimney sweep his whole life and therefore didn't want to play in the NHL (or whatever), then McNeil who was much better than him, had many more accolades, and had a much (comparatively) longer NHL career should be several rungs higher (i.e. on the list, as opposed to Martin)

Frank Brimsek - I saw him play in his very last and worst season in Chicago and he still really passes the eye test. Militant stand up, positionally sound, smart and composed. Going back more towards his prime...he's maybe the calmest goalie I've ever seen. There's more to his game in his prime than it appeared in that last season.

Turk Broda - Very interesting style. Sort of a one-knee, paddle down style a lot. He cannot skate, which makes him sort of clunky. He's a husky fella. The pace of play in the NHL doesn't accelerate until 1949 I've found. I saw a very significant portion of a game from Dec of 1947 and it's remarkably slower than anything two and three years later. Broda seems to struggle a lot with pace, so I'm not surprised he seemed to fall off a bit (from a run of being considered the #1 or #2 goalie, that is) as the pace picked up. It's also not lost on me that he was at a fairly advanced age at that point.

We'll see if I can feel for pace and quality before the War. But the 1948 season is very much a War-affected year it seems to me, which is consistent with my previous viewings.

Positionally he's good, but there's not a lot of compete in his game. Any second chance or even lateral move is probably going in. It's not very scalable for me. Definitely a guy that I could see making it work on a tight defensive team. But I'll take Lumley by a mile on any other situation.

Harry Lumley - He's the opposite. He actually looks way ahead of his time. He's very mobile, very active but remains in the crease. He can stop a big variety of shots. He can let some things through his body because the equipment doesn't allow for big gesticulations and covering all the holes that opens up. This is a real talent though. If he played in the 70's, he wouldn't have looked out of place along with the likes of guys like Vachon...he's actually more in control than Vachon. That said, being forced into the league at 17 because of the War is insane. How he turned out well at all is a minor miracle. It's not like he was shuttled back to junior to learn...he was in the AHL at 17. Is there anyone, say, post-consolidation where their first known statistics are NHL stats? Wild. He's a game stealer on some pretty questionable clubs.

The Hockey News - Nov 24 1951 said:
“We have 16 ordinary hockey players and an outstanding goalie In Harry Lumley,” Ebbie (Goodfellow) told Ralby. “We don’t have that leader, the man who can spark the team like Schmidt in Boston, Kennedy in Toronto, Richard in Montreal. Howe and Lindsay in Detroit and Laprade in New York

“It’s pretty tough to smile these days,” said Ebbie grimly.

I'm sort of doing this backwards stream of consciousness so to speak, just to keep some notes.

Earl Robertson is terrible. So is Johnny Mowers. Not even close to the quality of these other guys.

Limited views: Mike Karakas doesn't look good. Dave Kerr looks very good.

Normie Smith sure likes to dive out on his stomach and try to do...whatever it is that is considered. Pass.

Bill Beveridge misses more pokechecks than he connects on.

Non-goalie related, Neil Colville was surprisingly good on film. Not a player I knew much about. So is Earl Seibert, he's like Eddie Shore Jr. almost.

##

I'm way back now...these are smaller clips, so these are even more limited views. But it's better than nothing...

George Hainsworth vs Dave Kerr - 12/20/1936

A game where it went to OT tied at 2, and the Rangers won 5-3. That's how far back I am haha. I saw Frank Boucher score a spin-a-rama goal on George Hainsworth haha

Dave Kerr might be the missing link to modern goaltending. He's the furthest back guy that looks like a goalie so far, he sort of looks like a way lesser Plante in some respects.

Hainsworth is 41 in this game, and he looks it. Every clip of him is him basically going for pokechecks. Any move and he's on his back.

This is the last game of his NHL career, as luck would have it.

Woah, first ever view of Roy Worters (whose head is barely above the crossbar). As I thought, has some Rogie Vachon in him. Very, very limited view. Caught another Worters game...he's active, I'll give him that. The Americans are not all in the frame when shots are taken, unlike the Leafs. Not a tight group these Americans. Wild threads though.

##

Ok, early returns on Tiny Thompson and Lorne Chabot is that they're a similar style of play. They sort of do this reserved soccer tackle/slide in the direction of the puck, but you use a hand to grab onto the post as well. Which I suppose is rudimentary form of anchoring.

More Chabot and a snip of John Ross Roach making some kneeling blocks or one-knee blocks as a save selection. I'm into that in this case.

##

Random thought: How sure are we about the definition of "shot" throughout history? Is there a chance that shot attempts were counted at this time as opposed to shots on goal? Shots seem very rare. Goaltending seems more rudimentary than offense. I have some doubts about guys making dozens of saves in a game. It's very tough to get through.

##

I think I got a piece of Hainsworth in '32. He looks much better than his last NHL games if this is him, I need to see if I can pinpoint the exact game. Showed some very early butterfly-ish techniques on shots arcing in from the wing. Pretty compact in his process, unlike Andy Aitkenhead. Still though, Hainsworth doesn't look overly mobile or even super coordinated with his stick.

Charlie Gardiner makes a kneeling, compact save with no rebound against the Leafs in the first game at Maple Leaf Gardens. I'd love to get any extended clip of him, but I'm running out of racetrack here...

I have a handful more clips to dig through, but have to step away...
 

Dr John Carlson

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Dec 21, 2011
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Dumping notes here....feel free to disregard, but outside of 3:30 am to 8:30 am, I've been watching old, old film clips for the last 24+ hours...

Chuck Rayner - This is that third d-man style I was talking about. He held his stick like a d-man more often than not. (Later note: This becomes much more common in the early 30's, he's a holdover I guess). He would also try to lead the rush at times, but wasn't very good at it. This is not a good goaltender. He's a shot blocking d-man with more pads. That 1950 Rangers team is a lot better than it looks on paper...Laprade, Leswick, Raleigh (though slow and relegated to being more of a passer), Lund are all surprisingly good talents. Rayner blew two goals leads in games 6 and 7 with the Rangers having a chance to win a Cup. Even the winner looks like a fairly average backhander from Pete Babando.

Gerry McNeil - This is actually a very good goalie. He's mobile, but composed and balanced and anchored. Very quick. Very smart. Still battles for rebounds despite his stature. Reports at the time were that he retired after 1955 because he had a great job at Molson. He later returned to play locally in Quebec, where he was quite successful at lower levels. If Seth Martin gets a pass because he wanted to be a chimney sweep his whole life and therefore didn't want to play in the NHL (or whatever), then McNeil who was much better than him, had many more accolades, and had a much (comparatively) longer NHL career should be several rungs higher (i.e. on the list, as opposed to Martin)

Frank Brimsek - I saw him play in his very last and worst season in Chicago and he still really passes the eye test. Militant stand up, positionally sound, smart and composed. Going back more towards his prime...he's maybe the calmest goalie I've ever seen. There's more to his game in his prime than it appeared in that last season.

Turk Broda - Very interesting style. Sort of a one-knee, paddle down style a lot. He cannot skate, which makes him sort of clunky. He's a husky fella. The pace of play in the NHL doesn't accelerate until 1949 I've found. I saw a very significant portion of a game from Dec of 1947 and it's remarkably slower than anything two and three years later. Broda seems to struggle a lot with pace, so I'm not surprised he seemed to fall off a bit (from a run of being considered the #1 or #2 goalie, that is) as the pace picked up. It's also not lost on me that he was at a fairly advanced age at that point.

We'll see if I can feel for pace and quality before the War. But the 1948 season is very much a War-affected year it seems to me, which is consistent with my previous viewings.

Positionally he's good, but there's not a lot of compete in his game. Any second chance or even lateral move is probably going in. It's not very scalable for me. Definitely a guy that I could see making it work on a tight defensive team. But I'll take Lumley by a mile on any other situation.

Harry Lumley - He's the opposite. He actually looks way ahead of his time. He's very mobile, very active but remains in the crease. He can stop a big variety of shots. He can let some things through his body because the equipment doesn't allow for big gesticulations and covering all the holes that opens up. This is a real talent though. If he played in the 70's, he wouldn't have looked out of place along with the likes of guys like Vachon...he's actually more in control than Vachon. That said, being forced into the league at 17 because of the War is insane. How he turned out well at all is a minor miracle. It's not like he was shuttled back to junior to learn...he was in the AHL at 17. Is there anyone, say, post-consolidation where their first known statistics are NHL stats? Wild. He's a game stealer on some pretty questionable clubs.



I'm sort of doing this backwards stream of consciousness so to speak, just to keep some notes.

Earl Robertson is terrible. So is Johnny Mowers. Not even close to the quality of these other guys.

Limited views: Mike Karakas doesn't look good. Dave Kerr looks very good.

Normie Smith sure likes to dive out on his stomach and try to do...whatever it is that is considered. Pass.

Bill Beveridge misses more pokechecks than he connects on.

Non-goalie related, Neil Colville was surprisingly good on film. Not a player I knew much about. So is Earl Seibert, he's like Eddie Shore Jr. almost.

##

I'm way back now...these are smaller clips, so these are even more limited views. But it's better than nothing...

George Hainsworth vs Dave Kerr - 12/20/1936

A game where it went to OT tied at 2, and the Rangers won 5-3. That's how far back I am haha. I saw Frank Boucher score a spin-a-rama goal on George Hainsworth haha

Dave Kerr might be the missing link to modern goaltending. He's the furthest back guy that looks like a goalie so far, he sort of looks like a way lesser Plante in some respects.

Hainsworth is 41 in this game, and he looks it. Every clip of him is him basically going for pokechecks. Any move and he's on his back.

This is the last game of his NHL career, as luck would have it.

Woah, first ever view of Roy Worters (whose head is barely above the crossbar). As I thought, has some Rogie Vachon in him. Very, very limited view. Caught another Worters game...he's active, I'll give him that. The Americans are not all in the frame when shots are taken, unlike the Leafs. Not a tight group these Americans. Wild threads though.

##

Ok, early returns on Tiny Thompson and Lorne Chabot is that they're a similar style of play. They sort of do this reserved soccer tackle/slide in the direction of the puck, but you use a hand to grab onto the post as well. Which I suppose is rudimentary form of anchoring.

More Chabot and a snip of John Ross Roach making some kneeling blocks or one-knee blocks as a save selection. I'm into that in this case.

##

Random thought: How sure are we about the definition of "shot" throughout history? Is there a chance that shot attempts were counted at this time as opposed to shots on goal? Shots seem very rare. Goaltending seems more rudimentary than offense. I have some doubts about guys making dozens of saves in a game. It's very tough to get through.

##

I think I got a piece of Hainsworth in '32. He looks much better than his last NHL games if this is him, I need to see if I can pinpoint the exact game. Showed some very early butterfly-ish techniques on shots arcing in from the wing. Pretty compact in his process, unlike Andy Aitkenhead. Still though, Hainsworth doesn't look overly mobile or even super coordinated with his stick.

Charlie Gardiner makes a kneeling, compact save with no rebound against the Leafs in the first game at Maple Leaf Gardens. I'd love to get any extended clip of him, but I'm running out of racetrack here...

I have a handful more clips to dig through, but have to step away...
Do you have a link to some of the longer game footage you've seen, as opposed to short clips? I find that the most accessible footage is the shorter clips that you can't take much away from.

And, I appreciate the Edgar Laprade shout... he was a monster in Allan Cup hockey of this era, probably the best senior player from the time period. He will have a case made for him whenever the centre project comes along.
 

The Pale King

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Sep 24, 2011
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Phew, got my list in. I'm out of the country for the next two and a half weeks but you know I'll be following along, and will get my votes in. Will be more active from mid-October on!

I snuck Karakas in as my 80th guy, like I said I would way up-thread. He's got a unique blend of pioneering and peak, and being a labour casualty makes him more interesting to me than the Cam Ward or Kirk Mclean types we start to get into in the doldrums, Potvins etc.
 
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