Wayne Gretzky always said that "Grant Fuhr never gave up the next one", he found a way to lock it down late. But did he really?
Based on previous data that I compiled manually here: Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3 (I think a board migration had added strikethrough to some lines inadvertently), I did the same analysis on Grant Fuhr and Billy Smith. Granted, Fuhr was generally in a more dicey defensive situation for his dynasty than Smith. But I imagine Smith's career was more centered around a high scoring era, as late career Fuhr worked his way into the DPE to some degree.
Grant Fuhr
GP
W
L
GA
Surr. 3rd per lead
Surr. 3rd per/OT tie
Goal w/in ~2 mins
Garbage goals
1982
5
2
3
26
1
2
3
1
1984
16
11
4
44
1
3
10
1
1985
18
15
3
55
2
0
16
9
1986
9
5
4
28
1
2
3
3
1987
19
14
5
47
2
4
6
3
1988
19
16
2
55
1
3
8
8
1989
7
3
4
24
0
1
2
0
1991
17
8
7
51
2
5
8
1
1993
8
3
4
27
3
5
4
0
1997
6
2
4
13
1
1
1
0
1998
10
6
4
28
2
2
4
1999
13
6
6
31
5
4
2
0
Totals
147
91
50
429
19
32
65
30
Per GP
7.737
4.594
2.262
2.94 -> 2.73
As you see...Gretzky's claim sort of holds up. Fuhr surrenders a 3rd period lead once every 7.7 games. Once every 10 games as an Oiler. The 7.7+ games is better than Hasek, worse than Brodeur.
He also holds up fairly well in surrendering 3rd per/OT ties at 4.6 for his career. That's Sawchuk/Dryden/Roy territory.
Him giving up a goal within 2-3 minutes (automatically counted non-garbage <2 mins, if a goal that significantly affected game script happened, say, 2:34 after another one, I counted it on discretion. No goals >=3 mins apart were counted). Once every 2 and a quarter games is the biggest number (smallest?) I've found, but that could be partially a product of the era.
Removing goals that had no affect on game result (as defined in the linked post) but, lazily, not removing garbage time lowers his career playoff GAA by about 0.20.
Not many contemporaries out there that have a lengthy playoff resume, especially having already done Roy...so, naturally, I turned to Billy Smith.
Billy Smith
GP
W
L
GA
Surr. 3rd per lead
Surr. 3rd per/OT tie
Goal w/in ~2 mins
Garbage goals
1975
6
1
4
23
1
1
3
1
1976
8
4
3
21
3
3
4
1
1977
10
7
3
27
2
2
2
0
1979
5
4
1
10
2
2
0
0
1980
20
15
4
54
4
4
9
9
1981
17
14
3
42
2
1
2
7
1982
18
15
3
47
7
4
10
3
1983
17
13
3
43
0
0
8
5
1984
21
12
8
54
3
2
6
3
1985
6
3
3
19
0
0
1
1
1986
1
0
1
4
0
0
1
0
Totals
129
88
36
344
24
19
46
30
Per GP
5.375
6.789
2.804
2.72 -> 2.47
Billy Smith surrenders a 3rd period lead much more often than Fuhr - every 5.4 games. During the drive-for-five Isles time it's only pushed to once every 5.8 games.
Conversely, Billy Smith was extremely good at preserving 3rd per/OT ties (or, not surrendering them). He lost one once every 6.8 games. During the dynasty once every 8.5 games.
His 1983 run is f'n crazy...no surrendered 3rd period/OT ties or leads for the whole run. He wins the Smythe for his trouble. 1981 is nice too.
Like Fuhr, Smith also gives up goals shortly after another or his own team's. Which seems to correlate with history as opposed to the present. Brodeur/Roy/Hasek don't really do this. Hall/Dryden/Sawchuk/Fuhr/Smith do.
So, unlike Ales Hemsky being a top 5 player in the league and Vitali Yachmenev being a 40 goal scorer...Gretzky does kind of have a point here in that "Fuhr stopped the next one" when the Oilers had a lead.
easier to not surrender a lead if your superteam tend to achieve to create multigoal lead (or score new one during the third) too but I imagine it is counterbalanced by the fact your team often made a lead for you too loose (a goaltender that would never start the third with a lead would have a perfect 100% track record here)
That sound a bit like a game winner type of stats to me, but I could be fully missing what was being tried.
A bit like being scored in the 2 minutes after your team scored, if your team score a lot of goal it will happen to you more often than otherwise, goaltender in low scoring era will have a bit leg up over some others.
At least Smith-Fuhr both played for teams that won a lot (so did lead in the third a lot) and both scored lot of goals, so maybe it is a fair comp for those 2.
It is, no doubt, imperfect. I was just trying to see if any particular trend or anything noteworthy emerged. Fuhr seems quite inconsistent to me - even in-game - and then I thought about what Gretzky (and what some in the media likely parroted) that he "stops the next one". Part of me was hoping that wasn't the case...but alas, he's kinda right.
But like you said, these are more or less cold numbers that need context. The Oilers score at will and give up chances at seemingly the same rate. Also, Fuhr and Smith seemed to have rather different workloads on a per-season level that might require investigation.
But again, it's stats, so it's all shorthand for real evaluation.
I have a pretty decent repository of stats and quotes of pre-1910 players. There are 10-12 goalies that I think should get some consideration on everyone’s preliminary lists, and probably 4-6 who should be on our final top-60.
I’m only going to post the quotes (and all-star teams, if I have them) here because stats for goalies back then were even worse than they are now. We don’t have total shot numbers, so save percentage is impossible. Teams in the same league were unbalanced in strength, so some teams/goalies got shelled while others weren’t tested too much. Additionally, goalies served their own penalties, making it exceedingly difficult to even use a goals-against-average metric.
Finally, I should note that I only have quotes through 1909 (or earlier, depending on the league). The absence of quotes post-1909 does not mean that these players were not impactful afterwards, just that I haven’t delved into that time period.
Here are 11 names (which feels simultaneously like too many and like I am missing someone) that I think warrant serious consideration for the preliminary lists. I’ll list them chronologically-
First up on the list would likely be Tom Paton.
I have him with 59 total games from 1885-1893, which is by far the best mark among goaltenders for that stretch of time as far as I am aware. Counting just AHAC games, he has 46 while the next highest total is 23 (Robert Jones, who would play for a few more years and end with 37 total games/36 AHAC). However, games played isn’t really a great measure of longevity here, as this was the challenge era; outside of 1888, the AHAC didn’t play balanced schedules until 1893. Montreal HC players played far more games than their contemporaries during this time period, being the top team of the league. His 9 seasons, however, are still very noteworthy. Of the goalies who debuted in the 1880’s, I believe this leads the field (without really diving into it, I believe Robert Jones, again, is the next guy in line with 7 seasons).
I have a couple problems with ranking Paton- namely, I think he was carried by a dynasty more than he was a cause of the dynasty. For starters, he wasn’t the primary Montreal HC goalie in 1887- that was actually William Hutchinson (or Hutchison, as I think I’ve seen it a couple times), who played four games to Paton’s two. Secondly, Montreal HC remained a top team after Paton retired, winning the AHAC in 1894 and tying for second (and, from what I can tell, actually being the second best team) in the league in 1895. Montreal HC fell off a cliff in 1896, after Archie Hodgson, Allan Cameron, and Haviland Routh retired. Finally, I don’t see any “best” or “finest” quotes. They are exceedingly rare- especially for goalies- in the 1880s and 1890s, but you do get them occasionally; Robert Jones, W. Norris, and Frank Stocking all received such praise off the top of my head. And probably one of the Ottawa goalies, now that I think of it. The Ottawa papers weren’t shy about pumping up Ottawa players. Anyway, here are some quotes-
1885
“Paton, in goal for the champions, however, was a tower of strength and time after time raised the prospects of his side as he swiped the puck from its dangerous position”
1886
“After resuming, the chief features of the game, prior to ‘half time’, which was shortly after called, was the brilliant play of Cameron, apart from his decidedly questionable bodychecking; and, the smart goal keeping of Paton, who had to do all he knew to stop some nasty shots by the last named player”
1887
Nothing noteworthy
1888
“The defence work of Cameron and Stewart was worth going a long way to see. Very little escaped Cameron’s attention, and what little did escape was promptly handled by Stewart. Paton between the flags was the same reliable stop he always is. He did not have a great deal to do, but while he was engaged he had to hustle, and hustle he did when endeavoring to clear his goals”
“The invincible Paton”
“Campbell retaliated by another grand run clean through every one of his opponents, who he either knocked over or cleverly dodged by the excellence of his head work, till at last he was opposite Paton. Then came his chance to ‘pass’ but preferring to score off his own stick he shot at goal; puck being magnificently stopped by that phenomenal goal-keeper Paton”
1889
“...both goal keepers had their hands full, Paton particularly, who had several very narrow shaves, but the veteran never lost his head”
“Tom Paton made good work between goals and saved time and again”
1890
“It was not unfrequently that ‘Tommy’ Paton made a stop that ‘brought down the house’, to use a fan expression”
“Time and again Cameron, Stewart or Paton did some remarkable work. The latter, especially in goal, seemed able to divine exactly where and when a left was going to drop, or where a shoot was coming from, and the result was that the only way to get the puck through the Montreal goals was to work it close in and then rush it through, for give Paton half a show to see the puck and he was certain to stop it”
1891
“Paton was cool and collected and time and again stopped shots which seemed to be impossible”
1892
“Of their usual seven, Paton, the famous goal-keeper…”
“The Montreal team, as will be seen, was composed mainly of crack lacrosse players, Paton, Cameron, McNaughton and Hodgson, beautiful skaters, all of the noted for their agility, display the best of judgment, were in their best form, and made up such a powerful combination”
1893
“On the other side much credit is due to Paton for his clever work in goal and many thought that it was due to his energy that the Montreal colors did not fall.”
“There is cool-headed and invincible Tom Paton in goals. Stewart who can lift the puck the full length of the rink at point, with the redoubtable Allan Cameron at cover-point”
1894
“The Montrealers have a first-class goalkeeper still, but he is not Paton” [Note: this is said about Herb Collins, who replaced Paton in goal for Montreal HC after Paton’s retirement]
Next up is probably Whitey Merritt
Like with Paton, I struggle with how to place Merritt due to the fact he played on a great team. Or, at least, a team that dominated the league. I have games for Merritt from the 1892-93 season through 1900, and for 6 of those 8 seasons the Manitoba league consisted of just two teams: the Winnipeg Victorias and Winnipeg HC. The Victorias won the league all 8 seasons, and most of them in quite convincing fashion. Most seasons were quite short (3 or 4 games), so we have a small sample size in an unbalanced league. To his (and the other Winnipeg Victorias’ players’) credit, the Victorias did make a couple challenges for the Stanley Cup and showed that they were a strong team, winning the Cup in 1896 and losing in 1897, 1899, and 1900. All told, the Winnipeg Victorias won 2 games and lost 7 during the course of these challenges. What does that mean for Merritt? Honestly, I don’t know. Like Paton, the Winnipeg Victorias continued to roll after Merritt retired, staying the dominant team in Winnipeg for another couple years. Here are some quotes about his play- I don’t have as many sources to draw from, so they are fewer in number. I don’t think that necessarily reflects on Merritt’s ability, just on source availability.
1892-93
Nothing terribly interesting.
1893-1894
Nothing of note
1895-1896
As for the goal-keeper [Merritt], if we may be pardoned slang, he is a ‘corker’. The Winnipeg goal might as well have been boarded up. There was no shot too difficult for Merritt to stop. His splendid play was a feature”
“Merritt in goal was all that could be desired”
“They ought to put up a statue to Merritt in Winnipeg. Never was such a goal keeper!”
1896-1897
“That the number of goals which the Winnipegs were defeated by was not larger is owing to the brilliant defence game put up by Merritt and Flett. Merritt was a grand goal keeper. Some of the shots he stopped were simply marvellous. He has certainly not lost his reputation because he played on a losing side, but he has added to it, for he stopped every shot that it was possible for a mortal to stop”
“Merrit in goal was the Merritt of Montreal. He stopped all shots that mortal could stop. He filled his position with honor to himself”
1897-1898
Merritt in goal was ever on the alert and took good charge of his post, but he does not stick close enough, is inclined to wander out of his territory, and to that failing, one goal scored against him must be attributed. Notwithstanding, his vacancy would be a hard one to fill, and he is of invaluable assistance to his team and club”
“The only thing for Merritt is to get a couple of chains and anchor him between the goal posts and then his wandering will cease. Credit is due to him however for stopping more than one very likely looking shot”
1899
“It was well for Winnipeg that their goal tend, Merritt, is one of no ordinary merit!”
“Merritt, in goal, was the same old Merritt of former years. He can stop almost anything, and cannon ball shots are easy to him. But where he is weak is after the stop has been made. He is not quick enough in sending the puck out again. Gordie Lewis is ahead of him in that score”
1900
“Merritt in goal as usual, was like a stonewall”
“Merritt, while perhaps not up to his old-time form, was playing a much stronger game than he has been playing this year”
“Merritt was not called so much into action, but what work he did do was clean, cool and undemonstrative. Merritt has generally had an easy time in the Victoria goal on Winnipeg ice that his city friends really have little chance to measure his fighting capacity”
Frank Stocking is a name that I feel gets wrongfully overlooked. The Quebec HC teams he played on were almost always near the bottom of the standings and never played for the Stanley Cup. Furthermore, we don’t have a bunch of great home resources to pull from like with players from Montreal, Ottawa, and to a lesser extent, Winnipeg. All that aside, I think he has the most impressive collection of quotes of any pre-1900 goalie. Is that from papers taking pity on a goalie getting a ton of work each night? Or was he as good as the papers make him out to be? I think I know which side of that question I land on, but I’m curious to hear what you all think.
In terms of his career, I have 59 games for Quebec HC in the AHAC and CAHL spread out from 1893-1901, plus an additional non-league game. These 59 league games lead all goalies who debuted pre-1900, with Herb Collins coming in second with 53 (so about one season’s worth of games). In this case games played is a decent measure of relative longevity, as the AHAC had shifted to a balanced schedule by this time. In terms of seasons played, he saw action in 9 seasons, 8 of them as the primary starter.
1893
Nothing noteworthy
1894
“Stocking’s playing between the Quebec flags was phenomenal. Some of his stops were remarkable, and, taken altogether, his goalkeeping has seldom, if ever, been excelled here. “
1895
“For Quebec as said before Stocking in goal was the star”
1896
“Mention must be made of Stocking’s excellent play in goals. He is what is properly named a ‘bute’.”
“Besides, Quebec has a long way ahead the best goal-keeper seen on the ice this season. Stocking is simply a star. Time and again he blocked shots that looked like absolute certainties, and the only game the Shamrocks got was when he was rolled over by Dwyer”
“It is next to impossible to score on Stocking, and, before you can think of doing so, Watson and Cahill have to be passed”
“Stocking in Quebec goal, played his usual brilliant game”
“As to Stocking, he is a wonder, verily, he has a “heye like a ‘awk’. Had it not been for him the score would have been 20 to 0, instead of being as it was 4 to 0”.”
“... had it not been for the truly phenomenal stops made by Stocking, the Ottawas score would have been a record breaker. As Bert Russell remarked to the Star man towards the end of the match ‘Isn’t he a dandy. We have literally rained shots on him, and he stops them all”
“It seemed impregnable. There were two stars- Cahill at point and Stocking in goal. Cahill outwitted the Ottawa rush line and Stocking remained in his fortress and cleared it fully a score of dangerous shots during the progress of the match. But for Stocking the tally might as easily have been ten to nothing in the Ottawa’s favor. He is looked on by many as the best goal-minder playing hockey”
“Stocking in goal is a star of the first water. He stopped shot after shot, some of them regular cannon balls”
“Stocking played his usual astonishing game in goal.”
1897
“The shining star of the visiting team was Stocking in goal, who, time and gain, in spite of the excitement that reigned, stopped shot after shot of the most difficult kind, and received much applause for his playing. It is certain that without such a clever stop the score would have been doubled at least by the home team.”
“Stocking, however, played a remarkably good game in goals. He is an old hand and did he get proper support his team would win more victories”
“The shining light on Quebec’s side was Stocking, whose playing in goal was the most astonishing ever seen. His stops in quick succession were most wonderful and elicited the applause of everyone. Without Stocking in goal it is safe to say that Quebec would have been defeated by double the score”
1898
“Stocking in goal was as invincible as ever”
“Stocking is a rattling fine goal-keper, and it was partly due to his great work that saved Quebec from a worse defeat. Shot after shot was rained in upon him and he cleverly turned them aside”
“Stocking, the Quebec goal-keeper, was a wonder. Twenty times he was threatened and every time he cleared”
“Stocking, however, did not lose his head, and proved himself worthy of the name given him by his friends- Stonewall Stocking. He was so well padded that neither puck nor sticks could reach within several inches of his skin. His baseball rig did not impede him, as he did very little skating”
“Stocking, perhaps, was not quite up to his former brilliant form, but nevertheless did some extraordinary work, and made a couple of apparently impossible stops.”
“Stocking in goal was accountable for the fact that the Vics did not score several more times. He is a superb goalkeeper”
“That Quebec put up such a good game was a surprise, perhaps even for themselves, for they were without the services of Stocking, their peerless goal keeper, and Swift, their veteran forward”
1899
“Now, while the score looks unduly high, it could have easily been doubled had not Quebec been blessed with the services of such a good goal keeper as Stocking. He played a splendid game and stopped, impossibly, twenty likely looking shots and as many more that were less likely”
“Stocking was in splendid form and made great stops. He stopped several from Harry Trihey just at the waist in great style”
“Stocking was the brilliant man of the Quebec team, and would do credit to any seven on the ice. Time after time he made stops which seemed impossible, and had anyone but Stocking been in goal the score would have been more one-sided than it was”
“It is the quick pass just in front of the goals that counts, and though it may only connect a few times during the match, when it does there is only one man in Canada to stop it- Stocking”
1900
“The Ottawas made attack after attack on the Quebec goals, but Stocking was all but invincible”
“Stocking maintained his reputation as one of the best goal keepers in the league, and the Ottawas saw that he got lots of chances to shine”
“Quebec people admit that Hutton is quite as good a goal keeper as Stocking, and this is quite and admission for Quebecers to make”
“As a goalkeeper, Stocking, of the Quebec seven, is simply out of sight”
1901
“Stocking’s work in goal could not be improved upon”
I’ve mentioned Herb Collins a couple times already, so I figure he is worthy of some discussion. He began his career with the Montreal Crystals in 1893, then jumped over to Montreal HC upon the retirement of Tom Paton. As previously stated, Montreal HC did not seem to miss a beat, winning the league again that year. I have Collins with 58 total games, 53 of them being AHAC/CAHL regular season games. Again, as stated, I believe this is second to Frank Stocking for goalies who debuted in the 1890s.
Personally, I doubt he makes my list, but he is in the mix; he was an upper-tier goalie with impressive longevity for the time (1893-1899).
1893
Nothing noteworthy
1894
“It was only the splendid goal-keeping of Collins that time and again prevented the former from scoring”
1895
“Collins showed himself capable of phenomenal work between the posts, and, while sometimes hard pressed, he was always equal to the occasion, and time and time again what seemed almost certain shots were made useless by his accuracy and good judgment”
“After the match was over the Montreal contingent went wild, and Collins was grabbed quickly and told how good a man he was while he was being thrown up in the air and caught again”
“Collins was simply impregnable. He stopped all sorts of impossible shots, and played with a coolness and judgment that were admirable”
“In fact had it not been for the excellence of Collins as a goal keeper, the Crystal’s score would have been very much larger than it was”
1896
“The bright shining light of the winged wheel men was Collins. He played a phenomenal game in goal and has never appeared to better advantage on the ice”
“Collins deserves to be crowned king of goalkeepers for his splendid play.”
“As regards to the Montrealers, in justice it must be said Collins, in goal, was facile princeps. Some of the stops he made were remarkable- ys, phenomenal- and had it not been for his magnificent work, the score against him would certainly have run into double figures. In him Montreal has a jewel which it would not be well to part with”
Collins was back in the goals, Murphy did splendid work at point, and Collins stopped in his usual neat style, but has not yet learned that a goal-keepe should not act as a supplementary forward, his place is between the flags and he should stay there”
“Collins appeared to be a little too confident between the poles. He semed, a couple of times, to think that they could take care of themselves, and he found out, when it was too late, that they could not. The Montreal defence, with the exception of Collins’ occasional lapses, put up a rattling good game”
“Collins in the flags was a phenomenon. Hot or cold the shots by the Victorias made little difference to him- he stopped everything reasonable that came his way.”
“but the team certainly missed Collins, whose intuitive faculty of almost feeling when the puck is coming on him makes him so brilliant a goalkeeper”
1897
“Collins in goal was simply marvellous. He saved time and again in an almost miraculous manner”
1898
Collins played a splendid game between the poles and some of the stops he made appeared to be nothing short of miraculous”
“Any difference that lay between the men was in favor of the Victoria quartette on account of their superior shooting qualities. In this respect they had a noticeable point in their favor, and had not Collins been a goal keeper of more than ordinary ability there is no knowing where the scoring would have stopped
“Collins in the Montreal goal played a wonderfully good game. At times the shots passed into him as if from a gatling gun, but he was equal to them, and it is to his credit that the Victoria’s score was not a larger one”
“Collins made a number of remarkable stops, but sometimes endangered his goal by leaving it”
1899
“Collins had some close work to do and he did it in his usual brilliant style”
“Collins did some wonderful work in the poles for Montreal, and he kept the score down in great shape, but woe betide the unfortunate forward who approached to near ‘Herby’”
“Collins did some remarkable work in goals and saved Montreal time after time”
“Collins, in goal, put up a fair game, but it was not to be compared with that of Hutton’s.”
“Collins, in goal, was the same old Collins, cool and clever, rousing great enthusiasm by the way he disposed of the puck when too dangerous”
Art Brown had a relatively short career, playing 5 seasons from 1900-1904, plus 1 game in 1906. He started his career with Winnipeg HC, moved to the Victorias for 1901 and 1902 (both seasons saw the Victorias challenge for the Stanley Cup, defeating the Shamrocks in 1901, defending it against the Toronto Wellingtons in 1902, and losing it to the Little Men of Iron in 1902) before jumping over to the Winnipeg Rowing Club, who would become the dominant team in Winnipeg for a couple seasons. He was nicknamed the “Wizard”, which is pretty cool.
1900
“Brown, in goal, stopped showers of shots, and to his excellent goal-keeping is due to a large extent the small score of the Vics”
“White Merritt was not up to his usual game, when compared to the brilliant work of Brown between flags for the ‘Pegs”
“Brown in goal stopped shots that Merritt might have let through, and when it is considered that he was bombarded from start to finish, 10 goals is not a very large score”
“Brown, in goal as usual, did phenomenal work, and again and again saved his side”
“A not less interesting point was the exceedingly scientific work done by their goal-keeper, Brown. His was no easy task as any man who has ever faced the Vics forward line can aver, but it was performed with a marvellous celerity that evoked the enthusiastic commendations even of his opponents, and they probably are the best judges of a good goal defender”
MacFarlane at point played well, but the star of the team was Brown, in goal. Too much good cannot be said of his work last evening. He stopped shot after shot, and made some ‘saves’ which were really phenomenal”
1901
“Steele is not the star keeper that the Pegs were always used to in Brown”
“Had Brown not been in their goal they would have been hopelessly and shamefully defeated”
“With their old goal-keeper, Brown, it is more than likely they could have defeated the Vics last night, as Brown’s work was magnificent and resulted in the saving of more than one goal which none but a masterhand in the position could have saved
“Whitey’ Merritt was missed, and his successor, Brown, came in for a large amount of close scrutiny, which he fully warrants, for his work was beautiful. “
“By all reports Rod put up the greatest point game in a superlatively great career while Brown, in goal, well deserves the name ‘wizard’.”
“Brown is the equal of anything ever seen here”
1902
”Art Brown retrieved a reputation that had suffered during the earlier part of the season. It was a star exhibition of goal keeping that he put up, especially in the close work around the goal”
1903
“Artie Brown between the posts was as elastic as a rubber man and blocked with the accuracy of an automaton.”
“Art Brown put up a great article between the posts”
1904
“while between the poles Art. Brown showed he had not been misnamed the ‘wizard’”
“A. Brown was again in goal for the Rowing, and played his usual star game.
1906
“Art Brown, the old Vic goaltender, was prevailed upon to turn out and his work was of the order which stamped him in years past as one of the best in the business”
And now we come to the original goalie of the Silver Seven, Bouse Hutton. He got his start with Ottawa HC with 2 games in 1899 after Fred Chittick refused to play due to some disagreements with the Ottawa HC leadership. Are we all noticing that almost all the goalies from this era that people care about played on dynasty teams? Hutton at least has some time in net pre-dynasty, but it is something I wanted to bring up (again). Ottawa HC continued to roll after Hutton retired in 1904. He came out of retirement to play 5 games for the Ottawa Senators of the Federal League in 1909, but I’m not going to worry about that here- that was a garbage league at that point.
1899
“Collins, in goal, put up a fair game, but it was not to be compared with that of Hutton’s”
1900
“Hutton in goal for the Ottawas is very cool, and he could not have played better on Saturday night”
“Quebec people admit that Hutton is quite as good a goal keeper as Stocking, and this is quite and admission for Quebecers to make”
“On the defence, Bouse Hutton, between the posts, stopped everything that a goalkeeper could stop and improvement on the team in that department is not possible
1901
“Bouse Hutton down at Ottawa’s end was at his old tricks flirting with the pretty girls”
“Hutton’s sureness was never so apparent”
“Hutton, the Ottawa goalman, deserves lots of credit for at times the game was made exceedingly warm for him, and one mistake would have cost the match”
“Hutton, in goal, even excelled himself by his stops. The Shamrocks often made such straight shots that it looked as if some of them must count, but the puck would be turned aside either by Hutton’s stick or skate”
“Hutton, in goal, deserves more credit for his showing in this game than probably any other man on the team, for it was one in which the least carelessness on the part of the goalkeeper would have cost the Ottawa the match. The shots which Brennan and Trihey made on the Ottawa net when they got an opportunity were of the kind that might well rattle the man between the posts. But Hutton was like an iceberg and had the eye of a hawk. He picked the rubber’s course without error except on one occasion and his claim to the title of topnotcher before the net stands undisputed”
“Bouse Hutton has been a player this year on three championship teams, the lacrosse, football, and hockey”
“The Ottawas had on their full team with the exception of Hutton, but the latter could not have in any way improved upon the game put up by Chittick, who made many seemingly impossible stops and virtually won the match”
1902
“Hutton in goal was superb. On three occasions, however, he was unable to get rid of the puck in time to avoid a score”
“Hutton, in goal, put up a splendid article, stopping a number of speedy shots with body, hands and stick”
“Hutton, they knew, and Duval, they knew, and knew both as brilliant players. Westwick and Henry have been favorites for a couple of years”
1903
“Hutton in goals was a wonder and the way he stopped shot after shot brought repeated cheers from the galleries”
“Hutton smiles when he sees the puck coming at him and blocks it as cool as pie”
1904
“Hutton’s work was simply phenomenal and he was the hero of the match”
“Hutton was at his best, and that is saying a whole lot.”
“Bouse Hutton in goal played a masterly game and was repeatedly applauded for his clever stops”
“Hutton distinguished himself by his work before the nets. In fact his performance last night stamps him as a marvel in the position and the Marlboro team attribute their defeat to his clever stopping more than any other cause”
“In goals there was nothing to choose between Hutton and Nicholson”
As for Hutton nothing but the best could be said of his work and the limit of praise has been bestowed on him a hundred times before, so that his stellar work was taken quite as a matter of fact”
“In the flags Bouse Hutton was a dandy. Time after time Hanna and Brodie smashed in the puck at lightning speeds and the Ottawa goal tend was called on to stop some marvellously hot ones”
For people who put a high value on longevity, Billy Nicholson has to be on your radar. He made his debut in goal for Montreal HC in 1900 and didn’t play his last game until 1917 with the Toronto Hockey Club in 1917. Along the way he made stops with the Wanderers (who were really just an offshoot of Montreal HC), Calumet Miners, Montreal Shamrocks, Haileybury Comets, and Toronto Tecumsehs, and Edmonton Pros (I can’t confirm all of these, for the record. Just working off of Wikipedia). Big Nick, as he was occasionally called by the papers, won a Stanley Cup with Montreal HC in 1902. Due to Nicholson’s bouncing around leagues that I haven’t gotten to yet and playing past my particular era of interest, I only have quotes for a handful of seasons.
1900
“Nicholson’s skill may be gauged by the way he stopped the hail of shots from Trihey, the best shot in the league, if not in Canada”
1901
“and only splendid goal keeping on NIcholson’s part saved a larger score.”
“Nicholson had a big share in Montreal’s victory”
“A chance shot or two might have rolled into the net just as well as not. But they did not, owing to the rare skill displayed by Nicholson, who was the right man to stop all attacks. He was kept busy, at times resembling a certain toy as he leaped into the air, squatted, or spun around. This means praise for Quebec, and praise for Montreal's goalkeeper. He did all that was required of him”
“... and Nicholson’s body must have been black and blue for he took everything that was coming to him in the matter of shots, and not one passed him. He showed himself Saturday decidedly the best goalkeeper of the season, for he had very little support from either cover or point, which let most of the shots that would have been effective, but for Nicholson, past them”
“...had it not been for the splendid work of the Montreal goal-tender, Nicholson, the score would surely have been much different”
1902
“Nicholson, who has the natural advantage of being broad, filled in the remaining space between the goal posts with his arms, legs and stick, which, when necessary, were as swift as the blades of a rotary electric fan, and from which the few things that came his way glanced off as effectually. He was a good goal-keeper last year, and he has gained in repose, a repose, however, that is of a deceptive kind, and resolves in speedy movements when necessity calls”
“The Montreal team are well balanced. From goal out, the players are in perfect accord with each other. Nicholson was cool, letting the wide shots go by untouched, while he stopped superbly”
“Nicholson in goal could not be improved on. He had no opportunity to distinguish himself and he had very few hot shots to stop”
“There was one man on the Montreal team who, during the first two matches was rather overlooked by the critics. This man was Nicholson, the big goalkeeper of the team. Up to this evening he never had a chance to show what he could really do, but then the chance came and Nicholson made good”
“Decidedly, Mr. Nicholson won the game for Montreal”
They [Boon and Bellingham] were ably assisted in the defence by Nicholson, who played the most marvellous game in goal ever witnessed here. He was cool headed throughout. Had the Vics’ goal keeper played the same kind of a game, the Cup might still be one of the adornments of the Vics’ clubrooms. Gingras’ shots seldom ‘azed’ Nicholson, when they reached him, and it was only a puzzling side shot by the Frenchman which gave the Vics their only goal”
“The Montreal team especially deserved a good deal of watching. The prowess of Nicholson and Boon is well known”
“Undoubtedly the man to whom the greatest credit belongs is Nicholson, the big goal-keeper of the team. This evening he showed himself to be a man of unequalled nerve and resource. The hard the shot the better he liked it, and when they came thick he was seen at his best. His play was simply wonderful, and too much cannot be said of the ability which he displayed”
1903
“Nicholson’s exceptionally good work between the poles was the reason for the score not being larger”
“Nicholson, in goal, was a wonder, and he saved his team from being disastrously beaten by his clever stops”
“Injustice to the Hamrock forwards it should be said that they sent in some good shots that only a good goalkeeper like Nicholson could bat out”
“Montreal is more than fortunate in having Nicholson. He is the peer of them all. Victoria has two, but neither of these can come up to the big Montreal man. Probably the man who comes closest to him in his specialty is Oleson, of the Winnipeg Victorias”
“shots were driven in on Nicholson by the bucketful, but he saved his goal time after time, and earned for himself the reputation of being the star actor on the ice. He is a marvel, and had it not been for his part in the play the score would have been many more to one than it was. Nicholson had ten times as many shots to stop as Hutton”
“Nicholson was in splendid form. His run up the ice to cover point and a pass to Marshall was one of the features of the game”
1904
“ In goals there was nothing to choose between Hutton and Nicholson”
1906 (random quote I saw while during research on Charlie Liffiton for the Pre-WWII ATD)
"Nicholson, their goal minder, is recognized as the greatest net defender playing hockey. His sensational playing this winter is the talk of hockey fans generally"
1908
“Big Nicholson himself did as good work as he did the last time he played here”
“Big Nicholson sat down on the ice several times, and the ensuing thud was dull and likewise sickening”
“After putting on 32 jerseys, 63 pairs of stockings and 38 assorted garments, the Shamrock goal-keeper [Nicholson] was carried to the ice, placed in front of his goal, and anything that guy by him was purely accidental [this note was underneath a rather unflattering cartoon drawing]”
Nicholson was named to the 2nd team of an ECAHA all star team picked by some fans put together during half time of one of the games. Moran was 1st team, meaning Nicholson beat out LeSueur and Hern for the honor.
“Is that Mr. Nicholson’s natural chest expansion or is the inflated outline of his bosom produced by a pillow?”
“Hall fell down on top of Nicholson. If Nicholson had fallen on Hall, the latter would have been mashed to a jelly. Nick looks as if he weighed about a ton”
“several times he eluded every man on the Shamrock eam, and plugged the rubber at Nicholson, the latter’s work alone preventing the cyclone cover point from being credited with several scores”
“Nicholson in goal proved that he is one of the good ones in the flags”
“Nicholson and Hern were about even up on the night’s play”
Like with Billy Nicholson, I am missing some seasons from Riley Hern, the next goalie I’d like to provide some quotes for. It looks like his career spans from 1901-02 through 1910-11, though I only have his games from 1901-1903 (in the WPHL) and 1907-1909 (in the ECAHA). The years in between were spent with Portage Lakes, either as an exhibition team or in the IPHL. The years after 1909 are outside my current research scope.
I’d like to admit one thing right off the bat- I was too low on him during the pre-consolidation project. He had better longevity than I gave him credit for, and I think he was a bigger star pre-Wanderers than I had previously believed. Like several other names on this list, I do have concerns that revolve around playing for power house teams (the Wanderers, Portage Lakes), but that looks like something we’ll all have to hash out later. Again, I recognize that good teams have good players, but for lists like this I’m not looking for good, I’m looking for great. Anyway, here are some of the quotes-
1901-02
“Hern played a game at goal for Keystone which had more to do with the result of the game than the work of any other player. He repeatedly stopped what looked like sure shots”
“Many persons class Hern as the champion goal tender of the league”
“One of the main reasons for PAC’s defeat was a case of ‘too much Hern’. The young man is certainly the star goal tender of the league, and one of the best ever seen on Pittsburgh ice”
“The Bankers defense in most of the contests this season has been considered nigh to perfection, while Hern has been time and again bored a ‘beaut’ at the goal tender’s art”
“The superiority of the winners’ game is attested by the magnificent game at goal of Hern, who had more than twice as many stops as Lamb”
“Hern especially received ovation after ovation in the first half”
“There is no telling how many points the red and white players would have piled up had it not been for little Hern, the Keystone goal keeper. There’s a boy who knows his business all right and last night was his time for attending to duty”
“TIme and time again the dollar-mark eam made great shots for goal, only to have them stopped by Hern, the best ever in this part of the country”
“The Dollar Marks would have won it had it not been for that Hern boy, the Keystone’s goal tender, who blocked almost a dozen shots which would have got past any other goal tender”
“If the Keystones succeed in winning the championship cup this year, and it looks very much that way, then the cup should go to Hern, because he has contributed more toward Keystones victories than any three players on the team. To tell the honest truth, he is a whole team in himself, and the applause bestowed on him last night when he skated across the rink was a just tribute to a deserving player”
“...but lacking the perfection of team combination necessary to overcome the remarkable goal keeping of Hern”
“The latter [Hern] played as brilliant a game at the net as he has ever put up here, which means that the spectators fully received their money’s worth, even if the score was one sided. He had no less than 10 stops which were simply hair raisers, and again and again the verdict was heard on ever side ‘there’s the boy that has won the championship for Keystone more than any other member of the team’”
“...the Bankers suffered in the absence of Richardson, their crack goalkeeper. Kahle, the local boy, was before the net, but inexperienced as he was he could not hope to offset the advantage which the leaders had in Hern”
1902-03
“The only man on the Keystone seven who did his full measure of duty last night was Hern, the goal keeper, who played such a sensational game last winter. He is still the same sensational player and it was due to his clever goal tending that the score was only 2 to 0 instead of 20 to 0.”
“He [Hern] is like a jail wall, hard to get through”
“...the one-sidedness of the score was helped by erratic form of Hern. He did not play his usual game and apparently could not see the puck, though the terrific shooting of Stuart may have been partly accountable for this. If Hern has lost his eye it means a heavy loss for Keystone”
“As for Hern, he simply dazzled the spectators with the brilliancy of his stops, and if the Keystone defense had been playing any kind of a game Hern could not possibly have had such and opportunity for the display of his powers. Over and over again Bish and Gordon left him practically unprotected, and in the second half he took care of at least 20 shots, half of his stops being of the most brilliant order”
“The crowd soon realized that Hern was playing in form such as is only reached at times by the best of goal keepers”
“The question of the contest soon resolved itself into whether Hern could be overcome or whether he was invincible. Some of his stops were of high lofts most difficult, while once he took the puck round the back of the net and drew a burst of applause by skating circles around the Banker men who were trying to get at the rubber”
“As in all previous games James Riley Hern, at goal, was the Keystones’ star, and had it not been for his clever work the score would have been fully three times as large”
“...as he [Hern] proved himself to be easily the star of the game, and his clever work called forth cheers time and again from the spectators. Had it not been for Hern, the PAC team would have run its score up to double figures”
“To tell the truth, Hern was of more real value than all the other Keystone players put together. He certainly is a jewel of a goal keeper”
“It seems a pity that such a good goal tender as Riley Hern should be mixed up with such an inferior lot of players as the Keystone talent has shown to be. Outside of Hern there is absolutely nothing to the team”
“Riley Hern, the crack goal keeper of the league, was missing”
1907
“Riley Hern is not as big a man as some goal keepers who have been known in Montreal, but he is mighty quick and has an odd way of shouting at the man who holds the puck ‘to come on’. It is true he was outwitted almost near the beginning, but things in general were a little ragged as they usually are at the start of a match like this and the shot which did the trick propelled by Marks was entirely unexpected”
“Lesueur and Hern divided honors, both doing sensational work in the nets. Lesueur save the Ottawa twenty times or more, using his shins, stick and head as usual, and sometimes skating out to intercept a pass. In the second half when Ottawa were three or four men shy, Lesueur’s work brought down the house. He stopped the puck with his hands, stick and body, turning it aside in a marvelous manner. Hern was equally effective, and in him the Wanderers apparently have a find.”
“Hern in goal made some stops that amazed every one repeatedly, rushing out and saving after an Ottawa man had passed every one but himself. Then he was cool at all stages and directed the men in front of him”
“Hern, between the posts, is a marvel. He stopped bullet-like trials of Smith as an umbrella wards off a summer shower and the fiercest rushes of the opposing forwards did not seem to rattle him”
1908
“Hern played a splendid game in the nets, and most of the ones that got away from him were batted in shots following a clever block.”
“As said before, Ross was good and staunch as ever, and made some fine rushes at times, and Riley Hern did his best, which is saying a good deal”
“Moran had less to do than in the Shamrock game and was outstarred by Hern, who was in top form”
“Nicholson and Hern were about even up on the night’s play”
1909
“Before the close of the half it was phenomenal work by Hern that saved the Wanderers from losing at least a couple of goals”
“For Wanderers Riley Hern was as careful and painstaking as ever. He treats his goalkeeping as he does his private business, and that is probably the secret of his success”
“Hern played brilliantly in goals, and despite the scores against him, he was a better goal tend than Lindsay.”
“Perhaps in this case Lesueur deserves more credit, for the fusilade on his net in the first half was the greatest, although in the second the attack was evenly divided, but Riley Hern no doubt would have done just as well had he been in Lesuer’s place”
“Hern had less to do than Lesueur, but did it equally well. The little fellow was cool in some stiff scrimmaging around his cage, and he used his head in clearing”
“Hern did splendid work in the Wanderer nets, but Lesueur had it on him in every way”
“Hern in the flags played nice hockey, and only for some great stops on his part the Ottawas would have piled up a much larger score”
I’m pretty sure Paddy Moran was the best goalie ever as of March 1909. Unlike most players of his era, he didn’t play on a dynasty, yet was still well-regarded by both contemporary sources and later historians. Moran made almost every all-star team that I have come across through 1909, certainly more than his contemporaries Hern and LeSueur.
Now, perhaps LeSueur and Hern really closed the gap between 1910 and 1916 (Hern retired after 1911; LeSueur after 1916; Moran after 1917, though he was done as a starter after 1916). I’m certainly open to hearing that argument, but it would have to be pretty convincing.
Additionally, for those that place a lot of value in the Hall of Fame entrances, Moran was the first of the three enshrined (1958), while LeSueur and Hern didn’t gain entry until 1961 and 1963, respectively.
Time for some quotes (again, just through 1909, with the exception of one 1913 quote I randomly came across):
1902
“Moran in Quebec’s goal did some most phenomenal stopping and the game was mostly won by him and Quebec’s defence”
“Moran in the poles was a tower of strength, stopping shots that seemed almost impossible”
“Moran did a lot of slashing with his stick and had to be ruled off several times- a thing that is not usually the case with goal tends”
“For Quebec, Moran was the star. He stopped numberless shots that under ordinary conditions would have scored. Moreover he kept his temper admirably and in all made a splendid showing. He is a decided acquisition to the team”
1903
“... and the one reason for the score not being larger than it was, was on account of Moran’s great stopping”
“Moran, who is now the captain of the team and still plays the position in goals, stopped some hard looking shots”
“Moran the Quebec goal man deserves credit for several brilliant plays. He stopped a great many shots at close quarters which would have run up the score very much higher”
“The Quebec, with the exception of Moran, the goalkeeper, were outclassed”
“... it was the excellent work of Moran in the poles that saved Quebec from having more tallies against them. The Quebec goaler proved himself to be in the top notchers and the Vic forwards gave him plenty of work to do”
“Capt. Moran in goals was simply superb, and excited the genuine admiration of friends and opponents alike. His generalship was a feature of the match and his excellent judgment not only in the nets but in handling his team deserve the highest probation”
1904
“Moran was in good form and blocked away volleys of stiff ones that managed to elude the watchful outposts, and his really wonderful work evoked generous applause on many occasions”
“P.J. Moran has played goal for the Quebec Lacrosse Club, the old Dominion Hockey Club, and the Crescent Hockey Club. He succeeded in stopping in the goals of the Quebec Club and is regarded as the best goal keeper of the day in Canada”
“Moran proved himself a veritable stone wall”
“Moran of Quebec was the first tested by a wicked shot but he rose to the occasion in dazzling fashion and he kept this form up to the very end. Waugh was equally as good and thoroughly deserved the warm applause of the crowd. On his play he has fully earned the right to be styled the finest goalkeeper in Montreal, and what the Montreal club owe to him would be difficult to estimate”
1905
“The story of the game is best told when it is said that Paddy Moran distinguished himself in Saturday night’s contest”
“Moran, as usual, showed himself a king of goal minders”
“It was regrettable that Moran was the central figure in the incident, as Paddy never showed a clearer claim to the title of premier goal-minder than he did Saturday night. His work was phenomenal throughout and he ranked as individually the most prominent man on the ice. In condemning his slashing of Gilbert, it must be remembered that the Vic line is the most aggressive in the game”
“The visitors’ defence was strong, and despite the number of goals scored on him, Moran, in goal, played a star game. He skated out and broke up rushes and blocked scores of shots”
“Paddy Moran, he of the sunny smile and padded chest, was as usual in front of the nets for the Quebecs. He is without a peer in this position. When Moran couldn’t stop the puck with his stick, he stuck out his chest. Once he put his face in front of a shot from Pete Brennan. THe rubber struck him on the chin and glided off. Moran smiled”
“Moran’s sensational stops were worth seeing, especially the one where he slid out to meet the puck like a baseball player to a base”
“Of the Quebecs, Paddy Moran was easily the most conspicuous. He made some marvellous stops and substantiated the claim that he is the best goalkeeper in Eastern Canada”
1906
“Moran in goal is one of the best goaltends in the business and his eye was seldom at fault in Saturday’s match. He coaches his defence and keeps it before the nets”
“Few games pass in which Moran is goaltend and Bowie forward without a mix-up of some sort between the two. Moran wants no one to bother him in the nets, and Bowie accepts all chances and goes in to score when the opportunity offers”
“Moran’s work between the posts for the visitors went far towards preventing the VIctoria forward line from running up an almost uncountable tally during the first ten minutes of play. He is quick as lightning and handles himself with the agility of a cat”
“He [Moran] was always in the way, and played one of the most remarkable goal-keeper games witnessed in Montreal for a long time”
“Mr. Pat Moran is an excitable young person but nevertheless he is one of the neatest goal tends in the business”
“Produce the goal keep that can best the Hon. Pat. Moran of Quebec”
“Moran was in form equal to his other appearances at the arena this year, and that is at the best in the goalkeeper’s line”
“The defence outside of Moran in goal is the weak spot on the team. Moran is a dandy and made some beautiful stops”
1907
“Paddy Moran, their goalkeeper, again proved himself as good as gold, getting applause, even from the warmest Ottawa supporters. Blair and Power seemed to place explicit confidence in Moran, for they separated whenever an Ottawa man rushed, allowing him to shoot”
“Moran might make a good baseball player. His catching was swell”
“Moran in Quebec’s goal gave an exhibition which was little if anything behind that of Lesueur”
“Moran, in Quebec goal, made himself unpopular among Shamrock supporters by the tactics used at times when his goal was menaced, of rushing out and charging the advancing Shamrock”
“Moran in the nests for Quebec put up a wonderful game and stopped many hard drives that looked good to score. The Ottawas’ defeat was due in no small measure to his efforts”
“Paddy Moran, who has often been picked as the most useful goalkeeper in Eastern Canada, was in the nets for Quebec”
“Moran, the Quebec goal tend, is the individual whom Ottawa may thank more than any other for their defeat. It is safe to say that his exhibition of last evening was little short of marvellous, and by ar the greatest of his career”
1908
“Moran once more proved himself a peerless goal tend, and never played better”
“Pat Moran clinched his claim to the title ‘King of Goalkeeps’”
“Mr. P. Moran, Quebec’s sturdy goalkeeper, was there with the goods, according to his time-worn custom”
“If no other part of his anatomy happens to be available during a crisis, Mr. Moran does not hesitate to stop the puck with his eyebrows”
“Of the Ancient Capital team, Paddy Moran, the goal-keeper, was the top-liner. Moran’s work in the nets characterized him as the best visiting net-guardian seen here this season. He was cool, even in the most exciting moments and the stops which he pulled off with his gloves, chest, pads and stick were nothing short of marvelous”
“Individually, by far the cleverest man of the fourteen was ‘Paddy’ Moran, the man before the twine for Quebec. The exhibition of goal keeping which he gave has never been surpassed or equalled anywhere else”
“Pat Moran was in his full glory, and the big fellow stopped them at such a rate that it looked as if many of them were blocked with his eyes shut, they came so fast and accurate”
“It was entirely thanks to Paddy Moran in the first part of the match that Montreal did not score oftener”
“P. Moran was among those present, and as usual, he made a noise like a stone wall in front of the nets”
“Moran not only has an eye like an eagle, but he has also a nerve like a lion”
“A mighty big factor in the victory was undoubtedly the work of the redoubtable Paddy Moran in the nets. He was in great form, and though the Vic forwards kept him very busy at times, he proved himself fully equal to the emergency in the vast majority of cases. He was forced to introduce many of his old-time wrinkles, and his rush with the puck down the ice, on one occasion, in order to clear, tickled the crowd immensely,”
1909
“Paddy Moran, the veteran goal-keeper of the Quebec team gave what was undoubtedly the greatest performance in the flags ever seen here. Moran had his eye strictly on the rubber throughout and had it not been for his sterling work, the score would have been twice as large. Moran stopped the puck with his hands, feet and body in a remarkable manner. As a goalkeeper Moran is in a class by himself. Last year he was great; this winter he is still greater”
“GIlmour scored but it was not allowed, as the net had been knocked out of position, thanks to Paddy Moran, who has a habit of putting the net out of business when things look dangerous”
“In Quebec’s surprising showing, a big factor was the wonderful work of their goal-keeper, Paddy Moran, who in his long career probably never did better work than against Wanderers Saturday night. Moran stopped them from all angles, and his brilliant work put heart into the players in front of him and sent them after Wanderers in a style that threatened to take the champions off their feet”
“P. Moran is the King of Goalkeepers”
“It is horrible to contemplate what the score might have been had not the versatile Mr. Moran been in goals to shoo the puck away”
“A vast deal of the credit for the good showing of Quebec goes to Paddy Moran”
“Shots of all sorts came his [Moran’s] way- hard ones, easy ones, low ones, and high ones, but they all looked alike to Patrick”
“Lesueur was not called upon to block as many shots as Moran, but he was always on the job when needed. Lesueur is a former Quebec player and tonight he had it on Moran in every way”
“Paddy Moran, whose work in goal is generally a feature of every match, seemed to have lost his eagle eye for once, and only recovered it as the match progressed to its finish”
“Had it not been for the splendid work of Moran in goals, the score would have been even higher”
“Paddy Moran distinguished himself with his usual sensational stops”
“Moran is the most sensational goal-keeper in the game. He was warned several times for going down on his knees to block the disc”
“... but for the apparently superhuman efforts of Paddy Moran there might have been many more”
“Lesueur gave a remarkable exhibition in goals and his work was little short of the display put up by Paddy Moran”
“The irrepressible Paddy Moran, in goals, gave an exhibition that was worth the whole price of admission to witness. Paddy has acquired a well-deserved reputation for performing sensational stunts, and last evening he treated the crowd to a number that were well-worth seeing, and he saved the situation on several occasions by his quick-wit in realizing the situation”
“...if there was one player among the lot that deserved special mention that player was certainly Percy LeSueur, whose work was little short of wonderful. He saved some of the most difficult assaults made upon his goals, and the finesse which he displayed reminded the great crowd which witnessed the match of his former fellow-citizen and friend, Paddy Moran, of Quebec”
“ Percy LeSueuer, one of the Ancient Capital’s productions, gave a splendid exhibition of goal tending, and showed also that he has not been loath to learn some of the tricks taught by that master of the goal-tender’s cage, our own invincible Paddy Moran”
1913
“Paddy Moran, the Quebec goal tend, has lost nothing of his skill and, to judge by the games he has put up this year, he was never more reliable. Paddy is a native-born Quebecer and is recognized as the best goaler in the N.H.A. to-day”
Charlie Quinn has probably the shortest resume on this list (I believe 5 seasons, though I only have four of them- I’ll post an update if I get through the 1908 Manitoba League season(s) before lists are finalized, but I don’t think I’m going to get there in time), but he gets a lot of praise in the Winnipeg papers. He took over for Art Brown on the Winnipeg Rowing Club, then eventually turned pro with Portage and Brandon (in the same season!) when professionalism finally made its way to the Western league. He’s not on the final version of my preliminary list, but he is worth mentioning here.
1904
Nothing noteworthy
1905
“While there were numerous brilliant individual plays, and feats performed that will go down in hockey history, one man there was who, like Horatius of old, saved his country in especially noteworthy style, and that was Goalkeeper Charley Quinn. Many of his stops bordered on the sensational, and the deft manner in which he repelled the hottest kind of bombardment elicited cheer after cheer.”
“Rat Portage did little long range shots, and against any other goal-keeper than Charley Quinn their score would have most likely assumed exaggerated proportions”
“Charley Quinn in goal played a sensational game, making stop after stop which looked good for tallies. Quinn is undoubtedly one of the best goal-keepers who has ever guarded the flags in western Canada.”
“Percy Browne and Charley Quinn worked like Trojans, and their work was the sparling end of the Oarsman’s play. Quinn stopped shot after shot, and those which did not get past him were almost beyond any human agency. Quinn took a hand in the rushes in the second half to help out his tired team mates, but his shin pads bothered him”
“He is certainly a dandy is that Irishman [Quinn]”
“The Victorias certainly had more shots on goal than did their opponents, but one of the best of the Rowing Club men was their guardian of the net, so the greater percentage of shots made by the Vics was neutralized by the excellence of Quinn’s playing”
“Charley Quinn, Rowing club’s clever goal keeper, whose marvellous stops saved the game for the Oarsmen”
“Charlie Quinn proved to be a wonder, and undoubtedly his cleverness had much to do with the Oarsmen’s victory. Quinn made a number of phenomenal stops, blocking long and short stabs with marvellous skill”
“ had it not been for the stellar work of Goalkeeper Quinn, there might have been a different tale to tell”
“Charlie Quinn in goal played in his good old-time style, and the Oarsmen’s victory is due in very great measure to the way he defended the nets”
1906
“Quinn’s work in goal was a revelation. The Thistles sent in many dangerous shots, but Quinn played in his best style and stopped all kinds of shots”
“...they found Quinn a veritable stonewall. Quinn’s work in goal was easily the feature of the game. He stopped shot after shot with comparative ease that would have been certain goals for less dextrous goal tends”
“Quinn in goal made a number of fine saves though a little more play to the game instead of the gallery might earn him many more plaudits”
“Quinn stopped a batch of shots, however, that would have passed the ordinary net guardian”
“Quinn - it’s hard to say anything about Quinn that is not complimentary- but he he did not play his usual, brilliant, careful, thinking game last night or the story would be different”
1907
“...but it was through the marvelous work of Charlie Quinn in goal for Portage that the visitors managed to hold Brandon to only four goals, as Brandon kept raining shot after shot on the goal”
“Quinn’s playing was brilliant, many of his stops being of the seemingly impossible kind but his support was of the best”
“The Thistles simply outclassed the western visitors at every stage and but for the brilliant work of Charley Quinn between the nets, the score would have been much worse”
“Quinn seemed to give the wheat city players more confidence than usually”
“Quinn in goal made a number of great stops, though he too seemed to be suffering from stage fright at first and the first few shots which beat him were comparatively easy”
“Quinn in goal for Brandon did splendid work, and the score would have been more unequal had he not been in the flags.”
The last player I’ll write about here is Percy LeSueur, the famous Ottawa HC goaltender. Like his contemporaries Moran and Nicholson, LeSueuer had an impressive career, both in terms of accolades and sheer length. Unlike the other two, LeSueur had the good fortune of playing on some really strong teams, having been the goalie for Ottawa HC/Senators teams for the bulk of his career. While he was the goalie of a dynasty, and I’ve shared my concerns with those guys (especially since Ottawa HC saw similar success with several other goalies- Hutton in 1903 and 1904, Finnie in 1905, and Hague in 1906), I think there are some key details that makes me think LeSueur was not just a dynasty goalie. First, he led Smiths Falls HC to a FAHL championship in 1906 and an ultimately (very) unsuccessful challenge against Ottawa HC for the Stanley Cup. The second detail is also from 1906. Ottawa HC played the Montreal Wanderers for the Cup, with the Wanderers winning the first game 9-1. LeSueur suits up for Ottawa HC in the second game a couple days later and only allows three goals. Obviously it is a small sample size and this could just be random variance, but it looks good to me.
I’ve already stated that I think Moran was superior to LeSueur prior to 1910, but there are a couple notes in LeSueur’s favor that I should mention. He made the second team on the 1925 McLean’s Magazine all time team (Moran did not make any of the three teams), and he made an all time team published by Mike Rodden in 1969.
Now for some quotes-
1906
“Lesueur stopped in crack style but Bannerman was superior to the Falls man, some of his stops being of the phenomenal variety”
“Lesueur is one of the cleverest goal keepers ever seen before a net here. He shared honors with Frank McGee as the most brilliant of the players”
“LeSueur in the flags stamped himself as the peer of any goal tend playing the game and his blocking at times was phenomenal”
“Their defence put up a sensational game at times, and the truly marvellous work of Lesueur before the net earned for him unstinted applause from the great crowd and stamped the Smith’s Falls’ goal defender as undoubtedly the cleverest man in the position who has appeared in Ottawa in the memory of the present generation of hockey goers”
“The hero of their team proved to be Lesueur in goal. He had his vis-a-vis Hague over shadowed completely, and the rafters repeatedly rang with applause as he stopped shot after shot when a save seemed impossible. His exhibition of goalkeeping was by far the best senior this season or probably for several seasons. An enterprising mathematician took note of his saves and at the end of the match had counted 48, a wonderful record for an evening. There is this to be said about the work cut out for him, that, compared with the Ottawa, he had no defence in front to help him out, while Hague was saved time and again by the men in front of him”
“Nothing more brilliant in the way of goalkeeping could be possible. He [LeSueur] seemed to have a charm about him and quick as lightning got in the way of every shot”
“Goal-tend LeSueur, however, was at his best and he again proved himself one of the best blocks in the business. At times his stops were nothing short of phenomenal and while luck is always a factor in a goal tend’s play, his consistent work throughout the match showed that his stops were the result of quick thinking”
“On the other hand the Ottawas have to thank Lesueur also for much brilliant work”
1907
“ Lesueur in goal put up a beautiful game, being called upon to stop many hard drives which looked like sure scores. He is one of the finest in the game, and adds much strength to the team. He is fast in his movements and lifts beautifully. Ottawa certainly made a find when they landed him”
“ Lesueur in Ottawa’s goal completes a defence upon which it will undoubtedly be difficult to improve. He is easily the cleverest man before the net of the many who have worn the red, black, and white”
“LeSueur, the famous goal tender of the Ottawas, was in the nets, and his work was really magnificent. In fact, he alone, with the giant Pulford, kept the Quebec boys from breaking into the score sheet early in the game”
“Ottawa may thank Leseur for the manner in which they escaped being scored against”
“Lesueur and Hern divided honors, both doing sensational work in the nets. Lesueur save the Ottawa twenty times or more, using his shins, stick and head as usual, and sometimes skating out to intercept a pass. In the second half when Ottawa were three or four men shy, Lesueur’s work brought down the house. He stopped the puck with his hands, stick and body, turning it aside in a marvelous manner”
“Percy Lesueur, pf the Ottawas, the greatest goal-keeper that ever wore the pads”
1908
“Lesueur was a wonder, and Nicholson, although he did not have half the work and anxiety which Lesueur had, played an excellent game”
“No one, for instance, could expect Finnie to be in the same grade of hockey as Lesueur,”
“had Lesueur not had his eagle eye with him their score would have been much larger”
“Lesueur played a great game in the flags, making some wonderful stops, and rushing out and saving on a number of occasions””
1909
“Lesueur in the Ottawa nets covered himself with glory, making stops that he did not seem to have the slightest possibility of blocking. He was back in his 1906 form, being repeatedly cheered to the echo for his stellar work”
“Perhaps in this case Lesueur deserves more credit, for the fusilade on his net in the first half was the greatest, although in the second the attack was evenly divided, but Riley Hern no doubt would have done just as well had he been in Lesuer’s place”
“Lesueur had a great deal more work than Hern and did it in his usual good style”
““Had Lesueur been off form, Quebec would have had a dozen more. Lesueur is playing better hockey than ever and the crowd rewarded his work by prolonged applause on several occasions”
“Lesueur’s work was on par with that of Paddy Moran the previous Saturday, the Ottawa man standing a fusilade of shots from Marshall, McNamara, and Hyland”
“Taylor was under a handicap and Lesueur, although very good in the first half, when he had lots to do allowed at least three easy ones to get by him towards the close. Lesueur again proved that he is without superior when the team is tight pressed, but at the finish the Irishmen were fooling him from all angles”
“Lesueur was at his best on Saturday and stopped all kinds of hard drives. Only for his work the Shamrocks would have piled up a much larger score in the first half”
“Lesueur did valuable work in the nets. Due to the great offensive work of Taylor and Lake, Lesueur was not called upon to block as many shots as Moran, but he was always on the job when needed. Lesueur is a former Quebec player and tonight he had it on Moran in every way”
“Percy Lesueur, Ottawas’ goal keeper, hero of Saturday’s match”
“Lesueur in goal gave the greatest performance ever seen in Montreal”
“If there is one man to whom the Ottawas owe their victory that is Percy Lesueur. Lesueur saved the game for Ottawa time after time, his work calling forth cheer after cheer. Lesueuer stopped the puck with his hands, pads and skates, skating out on a number of occasions and intercepting passes or shots”
“Hern did splendid work in the Wanderer nets, but Lesueur had it on him in every way”
“Leseur, the Ottawa goal-keep, electrified the populace with some stops that only Mr. P. Moran, of Quebec, can make when in his best form”
“Lesueur probably carried off the honors of the Ottawa team because it was his cool and clever saving at critical stages in the match that neutralized every rally by the Wanderer team. He had at least twice as many stops to make as Hern and some of them were of the phenomenal order.”
“Lesueur gave a remarkable exhibition in goals and his work was little short of the display put up by Paddy Moran”
And here are some contemporary all star teams I have come across:
1903 All-Canada team from the Brantford Courier- Nicholson
1905 Toronto News team: Moran
1905 Montreal Star fan-voted team: Moran
1905 IPHL team from the Pittsburgh Gazette: Winchester
1906 Winnipeg Telegram Western team: Giroux
1907 Ottawa Citizen East team: LeSueur
1907 Ottawa Citizen West team: Giroux
1907 fan voted all-Montreal all star team: Hern
1907 IPHL team from the Detroit Free Press: Nicholson
1907 IPHL team from the Ottawa Citizen: Winchester
1908 fan voted all star team: 1st team- Moran, 2nd team- Nicholson
1908 Ottawa Free Press team: Moran (Nicholson said to have been the closes)
1909 team picked by Harvey Pulford: LeSueur
If I am counting right, Moran gets the nod for 4 of the 7 teams he was eligible for. LeSueur ends up with 2 of the 5 he was eligible for. Hern gets 1 of the 5 he was eligible for. Nicholson with 2 for 7 (though with two runners up). Paton, Merritt, Stocking, and Collins played before any all star teams that I have found. It looks like Art Brown was eligible for 1 team (the 1903 team), while Charlie Quinn was eligible for 2 teams (the 1906 and 1907 Western teams). Eddie Giroux (which I see spelled Geroux more often) and Jack Winchester perhaps deserve some attention, based on these teams.
Please note that I’m sure these aren’t all the teams that are out there. If someone points some out, I’ll be glad to make any necessary adjustments.
I'm quoting this part, but to your larger point...Gerry McNeill? He had some NHL success, but was primarily below that. He stood out to me as a "plus" goalie in old film. Smaller, but very talented.
McNeil could be a good one. Only 4 full NHL seasons in Montreal, but he started his career behind Bill Durnan and then lost his job to Jacques Plante. Really tough competition for the Montreal net.
Taking a quick look, I find was voted MVP of the QSHL by the coaches at age 20. He was a first team all star, as was Doug Harvey, and both he and Harvey received votes for best pro prospect. Looking good, more research required.
Can I just say some random stuff as a way of notekeeping?
- What I wouldn't give for one more post-athletic prime season of valor from Andrei Vasilevskiy. That would give me so much confidence in him being way, way up the list. Like, uncomfortably high. He wasn't very good last year, that's all I'm gonna get before the project kicks off. That might be enough to give me some pause.
I agree that Vasilevsky having another big year would skyrocket him.
Look at this teammates. Kucherov lead the league in points when they were near dynasty. He lead the league in points when they missed the playoffs. Hedman was a worldbeater when they were near dynasty. And still looked quite good outside.
Goaltending is the position most sensitive to team quality. But he hasn't looked great since the team dropped off either.
I agree that Vasilevsky having another big year would skyrocket him.
Look at this teammates. Kucherov lead the league in points when they were near dynasty. He lead the league in points when they missed the playoffs. Hedman was a worldbeater when they were near dynasty. And still looked quite good outside.
Goaltending is the position most sensitive to team quality. But he hasn't looked great since the team dropped off either.
Vasi's save percentage from when he was the starter through the 22-23 season ranged from .915 to .927, with most of those being in the .918-.920 range.
Last season was *the first* where he was sub .910 (he was .910 as Bishop's backup in his sophomore season). And it was also off of a major surgery. IDK the "Vasi has fallen off" thing seems to come more from vague impressions rather than anything actually quantifiable (beyond last season which was bad, but at least has a potential explanation).
He may never get it back - Idk maybe he's a .900-.905 goalie from here on out. But the idea that it's a trend and not - as of yet - an isolated bad season isn't really backed up by the numbers.
If this situation happens:
4-3 Oilers after 2.
4-4 - this is a surrendered 3rd period lead
5-4 Flames. This is a surrendered 3rd period tie
5-5
6-5 Oilers
6-6 - this is a surrendered 3rd period lead
7-6 Flames in OT, this is a surrendered 3rd per/OT tie.
So you can double dip if you continue to blow it. So, the "per game" thing comes into question a bit I suppose. But per goal didn't make sense to me either. Ultimately, you're trying to win a game. You make it harder if you keep blowing 3rd period leads was my simple mindset.
But to your point, a superteam like Edmonton routinely could outscore his mistakes. While the Isles could reliably shutdown teams in the 3rd period (except the '82 North Stars).
And to my ever-lasting point, it doesn't take goal quality into account...which is a big factor.
Here are a few free-form thoughts I've had since I last checked in-
1) As stated previously, I've found it hard to shove a jimmy-bar between Vézina, Benedict, and Gardiner. In fact, on my previous top-100 all positions Prelim List, I had them back-to-back-to-back, among Goalies. To my surprise, I saw that the Hockey News list also had them back-to-back-to-back (albeit in a different order). Now- is this a sign of shared laziness on our part? 'You know, those 20-30s pre-Sawchuk era Goaltenders all have great reputations, so let's bunch 'em all together.' Is there no Lundqvist or Holeček that has a case for sliding in between them?
2) On the topic of the Hockey News list, it's a strongly recommended read- taking care not to focus too much on the ordinal rankings [Hainsworth in the top-10? Lorne Chabot at 20?!? Hextall holding any position of consequence whatsoever??!], but instead weighing each listed name, and assigning a tier to each one. A stratum, a letter-grade, or (in my case) a number from Zero to Five. (Lowest THN G given a first pass '5' by me: Luongo. Highest THN G given a '0' by me is, of course, The Flopmeister.)
3) For those (like me) who risk NON-recency bias rather than recency bias, it'd be good to keep a valid reckoning of the THN-list excluded Goaltenders with current/recent activity. Vasilevskiy, of course. Hellebuyck. Shesterkin, Saros- all right. Who else?!
4) Roy Worters, for some reason, gets treated as the Tony Esposito of his time on the side of the Railroad Tracks where the All-Time-Draftniks dwell. Only four visits to The Playoffs- and only once emerging from the First Round. However, the teams he played for (Pittsburgh & NY Americans) ranged from ordinary to bad. Furthermore, Playoffs at that time were a two-game match, and a woeful sample-size. Hard to see a way of keeping him out of my top 2-dozen.
It's very time consuming, so before I dive into it in any way...
If I clipped together a game or two's worth of shot attempts at a goalie...would anyone watch it? And does anyone believe that they'd gain anything from it?
I estimate that it would take about 5 to 10 minutes per game for you to watch it.
It's very time consuming, so before I dive into it in any way...
If I clipped together a game or two's worth of shot attempts at a goalie...would anyone watch it? And does anyone believe that they'd gain anything from it?
I estimate that it would take about 5 to 10 minutes per game for you to watch it.
I just read the article on the Top 10 International goalies on the THN website. I have a question for anyone in the know. Why were Martin and Lindmark ranked ahead of guys like Dzurilla, Kralik, and Konovalenko? I'm asking because I'm interested in the perceptions and thought processes that led to the ordering in that list.
Good post and interesting points and while I'm just going to watch this thread for the most part and just read your post reminds me of Bill James and going off memory his theory was that HOFers in baseball for batters had a rough baseline for AB's % league wide, something like 10 or 15% of AB every year were from Hall of fame players that remained somewhat constant across eras and number of teams which seems like a fair starting point and assumption.
Hockey seems to borrow a lot from baseball, often misguided, but then again maybe Bill James notion is misguided as well?
It has been brought up in other all time rankings but the 06 era with only 6 teams seems to have a concentration on all time lists above what one would except and with placements maybe because of it being easier to be in the top 5 or top lists year in and year out?
I don't know if the Bill James notion is misguided, but when you look at baseball teams/games compared to hockey, they're a lot larger in number. Baseball was playing 100+ games a year by 1880, and had 16 teams by 1900, playing 154 games a year until expansion in 1960. Rosters were also between 20-25 batters and pitchers, compared to 8 players and a goaltender. That just generates such a robust sample compared to the early days of hockey, where they're playing 10-20 games a year against 3-5 other teams. It also has relevance to the Hall of Fame debate, because if you look at the respective numbers, there are 294 players elected to the Hockey Hall of Fame, plus 12 women players, 117 builders, and 16 on-ice officials, for a total of 439 people. Comparatively, the Baseball Hall of Fame has 274 players, and 72 others (executives, managers, umpires). You look at the early years of the NHL, and it is something like 50% of the players are in the Hall of Fame, though not all as players. It's fairly hard to try and draw comparable samples, but the ratio of baseball to hockey is probably in the 3 to 1 range - Dylan Crews debuted a couple days ago as the 23323rd player in MLB history, there have been 7676 skaters and 875 goalies according to a quick count.
Continuing from that, because it was a 6 team league for so long, you do have the same names repeating, plus post-expansion was basically all high-scoring. When the top 100 lists started getting made in the mid-90s, pre-expansion was 50 years compared to 27 years between 67-68 and 93-94. It seems like the ratio should be 2/3rds pre, 1/3 post, but the actual player-seasons is like 27% pre-expansion, 73% post-expansion, because of more teams.
I decided to do some sample size stuff this weekend to get some exact numbers for player-seasons, breaking down various sub-sections of time, and what I've found is that you can use 24 or 25 games played for all years post-consolidation, because goalies who played more than 24/25 games represent just about 50% of the sample in all the years. [Pre-consolidation you should use 15 or 20, but that represents just a miniscule amount of goalie-seasons anyway. In that era, you have 39 goalie-seasons of 15 games or more, 34 of 20 or more, 26 of 24 or more, 12 of 25/30 or more, 6 of 35 or more, and none above 40. We probably should try and rank all 39 seasons, because it isn't that labor-intensive.] Now here's a breakdown by years of all 24+ game seasons with GAAs under 2.00, 2.50, and 3.00.
17-18 41-42
42-43 66-67
Total
67-68 93-94
2
51
10
61
6
2.5
109
55
164
56
3
141
111
252
213
Total
162
172
334
882
So despite outnumbering total pre-expansion years 2.5 to 1 or so in raw goalie-seasons, post-expansion is outnumbered almost 3 to 1 when you look at seasons under 2.50. Combined with most of the lower GAA goalies still being active in the mid-90s, and they're just going to get underrated at the time. You can also note that in basically equal amounts of time, O6 and expansion, they had 55 and 56 seasons under 2.50, which has the effect of pushing people towards the conclusion that the samples are similar.
I also went searching for the non-NHL early stuff I did sometime ago, and for the 2 decades of ECHA/NHA/PCHL/WCHL from 1906-07 through 1925-26, your sample size is 170 total goalie-seasons, and 124 relevant ones of 10+ games. It's the same as the O6 era, about 6 per year. I don't have any GAA data, in that passthrough I was looking just at games played. So prior to expansion, you're looking at a total universe of about 500 goalie-seasons, plus whatever amateur/pro stuff you want to include from before 1906.
Looking forward from 93-94 to today, we hit our lockouts, goalie coaching/defensive systems catch up with offense, and we can look at the same table (still minimum games played 24).
94-95 03-04
05-06 11-12
12-13 23-24
Total
2
17
8
15
40
2.5
178
104
191
473
3
338
263
460
1061
Total
417
333
593
1343
29 years compared to 77 years, and there's 473 goalie-seasons under 2.50, compared to 220 prior under 2.50, and it even outnumbers the 465 under 3.00. That's what I'm referring to when I say older goalie-seasons are just getting swamped. Scoring levels in this time are basically equivalent to the O6 era, except now there's 30-32 teams instead of 6. Even if you don't include the seasons before the lockout, the number of seasons post-lockout has passed the the pre-expansion number already, by some margin.
It's very time consuming, so before I dive into it in any way...
If I clipped together a game or two's worth of shot attempts at a goalie...would anyone watch it? And does anyone believe that they'd gain anything from it?
I estimate that it would take about 5 to 10 minutes per game for you to watch it.
Would you be focusing mostly on controversial (for lack of a better term) goalies, goalies you think we people overrate/underrated, or goalies you think the community doesn't have a great sense of?
Would you be focusing mostly on controversial (for lack of a better term) goalies, goalies you think we people overrate/underrated, or goalies you think the community doesn't have a great sense of?
I don't know the answer to this yet. All I know is that Brodeur is first up because Hasek already has a video like this out there by someone else. These take a while, so I don't think I'm going to get to nearly enough of them unfortunately.
I just read the article on the Top 10 International goalies on the THN website. I have a question for anyone in the know. Why were Martin and Lindmark ranked ahead of guys like Dzurilla, Kralik, and Konovalenko? I'm asking because I'm interested in the perceptions and thought processes that led to the ordering in that list.
If I'm not mistaken, he wrote it, but I didn't want to single him out because I was under the impression that multiple members of the board were involved in that project, and I'm interested in as many takes as I can get.
Basically, it struck me as an odd list, but I'm always interested in hearing different views, because, even if I don't agree with them fully, they may shift my perception a bit. And since I'm already curious about Martin...
* I just have not been impressed with Grant Fuhr at all. He's left out to dry, but he's letting in everything. The 80s as a whole is weak for goalies. Am I underrating him because of how offense-heavy the era (and team) are?
* I was initially thinking I would have Dzurilla in my top 40. I won't now. He's closer to 50ish all time. It's weird how there seems to be a massive gap for non-NHL Euro goalies after Holocek.
* If we're suggesting tape, can I throw out Tony Esposito?
* Holocek looks really good. If I was just going off video, I don't see a gap between Holocek and Tretiak. I would love if they come up in the same round to dig in. I still go with Tretiak, but I think they're close.
* Kiprusoff looks really good
Fuhr and Dzurilla are not doing well for me. Holecek is. Kiprusoff is terrific.
Tony Esposito is on my list of guys to scrutinize for sure. I'm spending some extra time in the 80's because I think there's more guys there than we think.
I'd definitely be interested in something that showed a comparison between Tretiak and Holocek. My gut says that we're not overrating Tretiak having him in the top 10, but that we might be underrating Holocek. I've got him top 20, but he might need to be a few spots higher.
As for Fuhr, I've never been impressed by him. People say, "Sure, he let in four, but he stopped the one that mattered." To me, that suggests a guy who was lazy most of the time and just turned it on when he absolutely had to. And honestly, that's the impression I've always had of him. I've never thought he stood out when I've watched old Oilers games.
I've got Dzurilla mid-40s right now. I think he makes the final list, but what I don't understand is why he and Holocek were such a tandem rather than Holocek being the guy.
Gerry McNeil played only 4 NHL seasons for Montreal in the Original 6 era. But he was a high level minor league goaltender for another dozen seasons, often considered among the best or the best outside the NHL. In a larger NHL he would certainly have had a longer career.
Here's a review of his career, especially the minor leagues which aren't documented so well. Overall, I would assess him as being an elite non-NHL goalie for 4 seasons before he made the NHL, and for 5 seasons after.
Pre-NHL career
Highlights - 3 straight QSHL MVPs from 1946-47 through 1948-49
McNeil grew up in Quebec City and played for the Quebec Aces junior team. He was scouted and signed by the Montreal Canadiens, joining Montreal's 1943 training camp at the age of 17.
McNeil and Bill Durnan were the only two goaltenders at the 1943 training camp. Neither one had NHL experience. Durnan, of course, got the job with the big club, and began a spectacular seven year career. McNeil became the starter for the Montreal farm club, the Montreal Royals of the QSHL. McNeil was the #2 goalie in the Canadiens' organization for that whole seven year period.
I don't know of anything that particularly distinguished his 1943-44 and 1944-45 seasons. They were war years, and McNeil certainly would have had more internal competition for the Royals job if it weren't for many players joining the armed forces. Odds are he doesn't start for the Royals as a teenager if it weren't for the war.
In 1945-46, the Royals won the QSHL and were the favourite to come out of the East to play for the Allan Cup. But they were upset by the Hamilton Tigers in three straight games.
It was the 1946-47 season when McNeil really began standing out. He was voted MVP, best goalie, and best sportsman of the QSHL (first two voted by coaches, and the latter by referees). He posted 4 shutouts in the Allan Cup playoffs, and the Royals won the Allan Cup.
In 1947-48, he was again voted MVP and best goalie of the QSHL by the coaches. This year the Royals lost to a strong Ottawa team. A few newspaper quotes from the Canadiens training camp before the season:
Jack Koffman, Ottawa Citizen: "Gerry McNeil is probably a better goaler than many of those performing in the pro circuit."
Canadian Press: "McNeil is highly regarded by Hab management who feel he could take over anytime from Durnan and hold his own in the NHL."
After the 1947-48 season, Dan Parker of the Montreal Gazette wrote: "Gerry McNeil will doubtless replace Bill Durnan in Les Canadiens nets next season." Maybe not a bad prediction, considering Durnan had just posted the worst season of his NHL career after offseason knee surgery. But Durnan bounced back and kept the Montreal nets for another two seasons.
McNeil was once again the QSHL MVP and first team all star goalie in the 1948-49 season. The Royals lost to Sherbrooke in the playoffs as they were outplayed and outshot.
The Canadiens brought 5 goalies to their 1949 training camp. Durnan, McNeil, young Jacques Plante who had starred for the Junior Canadiens, Robert Bleau, and Donald McNivin. This season, McNeil was assigned to the Cincinnati Mohawks of the AHL, and Plante to the Montreal Royals. However, McNeil remained the #2 goalie in the organization and the heir apparent to Durnan.
Cincinnati was the worst team in the AHL. It's difficult for a goalie to stand out in that situation, and McNeil received no honours.
NHL career
Highlights - great playoff series in 1951 and 1952, 2nd team AS in 1952-53, Stanley Cup in 1953.
McNeil was called up to Montreal to replace Bill Durnan, who was struggling with health issues and nerves, late in the regular season and then in the playoffs. He played very well in his brief introduction to the NHL. After the season, Durnan retired and McNeil had the inside track to replace him.
The Habs had McNeil, Plante, Gordie Bell, and Jack Donlevy at their 1950 training camp. McNeil won the NHL job, Plante went to the Royals, and Bell to the AHL.
The 1950-51 regular season was probably McNeil's worst in the NHL. Montreal allowed 34 more goals than they had the previous season with Durnan. However, he had an outstanding playoff, leading Montreal to upset the dominant Detroit Red Wings. McNeil was particularly sharp in the first two games in Detroit, both of which Montreal won in overtime. He went 218 consecutive minutes without allowing a goal. Bill Tobin, Chicago president and former goaltender, said it was the greatest exhibition of goaltending he ever saw, and Jack Adams and Tommy Ivan both pointed to McNeil as the reason Detroit lost. Montreal then lost to Toronto in the final.
The Montreal Gazette pointed out that McNeil had proved wrong all the hockey theorists who said the age of the Pee-Wee goaltender was over, and that height had become all-important. McNeil, at only five foot six, was carrying the torch for mighty mites of the past like Roy Worters, George Hainsworth, and John Ross Roach.
In 1951, Montreal had three goalies at camp - McNeil, Plante, and the 18 year old Charlie Hodge. McNeil continued with the NHL club for the 1951-52 season, Plante with the Royals, and Hodge with the Junior Canadiens. Montreal cut their goals against by 20 this season. McNeil was outstanding in the first round of the playoffs with a 1.61 GAA against Boston in a 7 game victory, but then the Habs were swept in the final by Detroit, only scoring 2 goals in 4 games.
The 1952-53 season was the high point of McNeil's career. He was voted to the second all star team as goalie, close behind Terry Sawchuk. And the Montreal Canadiens won the Stanley Cup with him in goal. Jacques Plante filled in for 4 games due to an injury to McNeil.
In the 1953-54 season, McNeil played his last season as an NHL starter. The Canadiens lost in the finals to the Detroit Red Wings. McNeil asked out of goal in the playoffs when he felt he wasn't helping the club, and was replaced by Jacques Plante. He retired after the season, and the papers compared it to Bill Durnan's retirement in 1950.
Dick Irvin's role in McNeil's retirement should not be overlooked. Irvin had been very harsh with his criticisms of McNeil, and McNeil said he would never play hockey for Dick Irvin. He only returned to the Montreal organization after Toe Blake replaced Irvin. There was also talk that Chicago might be interested in trading for McNeil, but McNeil refused any trade because Dick Irvin had moved there after leaving Montreal. Remember that Irvin was also the coach for Bill Durnan when Durnan quit hockey.
Post-NHL career
Highlights - Outstanding 1955-56 season and 1959-60 seasons for Royals, solid play in two AHL seasons, possibly the highest paid AHL player, mentioned as best goalie outside the NHL.
McNeil didn't play high level hockey in 1954-55. He operated a service station, coached a new junior team in Jonquiere until they disbanded, and played a few old-timers games.
He returned to the Montreal organization in 1955-56. Toe Blake said Plante and McNeil would compete for the starting job in training camp, and Plante won the job. McNeil returned to the Montreal Royals and had a great 1955-56 season. He had a 2.37 GAA, won the Vezina trophy for fewest goal allowed. In the playoffs, he led the Royals over the Quebec Aces and then the first place Shawinigan team to win the QHL title. His 45 save performance in game seven against Quebec was spectacular, and Aces coach Punch Imlach said "McNeil beat us." Royals trainer Andy Crawley said McNeil's reflexes were even quicker than when he was in the NHL.
After the season, one Montreal writer wrote "Many people ask if McNeil is superior to Plante. Certainly both are excellent goalies, but if we were coach of the Canadiens we would prefer Plante for the regular season and McNeil for the playoffs because, for an important game, Gerry doesn't have an equal." McNeil was asked if he would like to return to the NHL and he said yes, but not if it meant playing for Dick Irvin.
Before the 1956-57 season, McNeil was in training camp with Plante, Eddie Johnston, and Charlie Hodge. McNeil played for the B team. He was assigned to the Royals once again. The Royals dropped off as a team this season, and McNeil won no individual honors.
Before the 1957 season, Paul Bibeault, former Montreal goalie and GM of the AHL's Rochester Americans, traded for McNeil. McNeil was willing to relocate for a higher salary. One writer said that McNeil would certainly be the highest paid player in the AHL for the following season. Rochester missed the playoffs, but McNeil was tied in voting for the second all-star goalie position, behind Johnny Bower's record-setting season.
McNeil continued in Rochester for 58-59. He was once again in Canadiens training camp with Plante, Hodge, and Johnston. Rochester was improved as a team and McNeil had the third best GAA in the league, but wasn't one of the two all-stars.
For the 1959-60 season, McNeil returned to the Montreal Royals, now in the EPHL. He took over from Charlie Hodge midseason and turned the team around. While he played fewer than half the games due to a late start and injury, he still finished with an outstanding 2.39 GAA (Hodge was 2.90 on the same team) and was voted first-team all star goalie by the coaches.
When asked how he liked being back in the EPHL, McNeil said the game was very exciting. He said the AHL game was different because players played their positions more and it was closer to the NHL game. When asked if he was interested in returning to the NHL, McNeil said absolutely not, only to help out the Canadiens for a few games if needed. The pressure was much higher in the NHL and he hadn't enjoyed playing in the NHL for Dick Irvin.
Before the 1960-61 season, McNeil announced he was retiring and moving back home to Quebec City to raise his family there. He took a job managing a big new car wash, and said he would only consider playing for the AHL's Quebec Aces. Management of the Aces asked the Canadiens about McNeil, and the Canadiens released him to the Aces unconditionally. One article about McNeil's signing said he was considered the best goalie in the minor leagues. McNeil played one final AHL season in Quebec, with no particular individual or team success. He finally retired from pro hockey after a career that had lasted from age 17 to 35.
Salaries
Some notes on the salaries that McNeil earned from hockey. Many people believe that hockey players "had to" work jobs in the summer because hockey didn't pay enough. In fact, even minor league hockey paid very well compared to the alternatives. Players worked in the offseason to earn more money, stay busy, and prepare for a post-hockey career. Not because they didn't earn enough in hockey.
When McNeil was offered the Royals job at age 17 in 1943-44, the salary was $3200 for the season. McNeil hesitated before accepting, and then his father pushed him to take it. The salary was more than his father earned as a foreman at Anglo-Canadian Pulp and Paper.
McNeil was the highest paid player in the EPHL for the 1959-60 season, earning a salary of $12,000 dollars. This was the highest salary of his career, more than he had earned even in the NHL. Per the 1961 Canadian Census, only 4% of Canadian households had an income over $10,000. A minor league hockey star could almost certainly earn more in hockey than elsewhere, unless he was successful in business.
My list is being compiled similar to how I tier a draft list. I'm generally using prominence and recognition to cut corners on how many goalies I have to watch... (like, I don't have to go back and watch Jocelyn Thibaut, for instance, because at some point or another he would have stumbled over some recognition at some point, right?)
So, I have guys in A, B, C+, C, W, NI categories - these are heavily talent based, but I also try to take into account things that I would know at the time - like size. But also things that I wouldn't have known like injury propensity or just availability in general...plus, I try to factor in adaptability/scalability too).
My "A" list is about five names long right now. I have 8 guys on my "B" list. The only one that played before 1990 (I'm working my way backwards) is Billy Smith
I don't think anyone in the post-expansion dregs is gonna catch him either. He's basically a lesser Martin Brodeur. Excellent read of the game, very efficient, stickhandling, plus skating...basically everything you could ask for ever...but especially in this era, where goaltending is very erratic.
I don't have a C+ guy from this era...yet.
In the "C" group, I've added (alphabetically and tentatively)...
Tom Barrasso
Dan Bouchard
Grant Fuhr
Mike Vernon
Barrasso has holes, but there's definitely talent there. He's agile, he has reflexes, he has puck playing ability. He can play. He certainly won't be above Marc-Andre Fleury for me.
Dan Bouchard is 80's Olaf Kolzig. Big and very strong positionally...good read on the game. Doesn't offer a big "plus". He was very unfortunate to play for the teams he did with the style he was. If he was switched with Roy, we still know and love Roy, but Bouchard would have made our top 40 list last time I think.
Grant Fuhr...it's really inconsistent and I don't like inconsistent-ness...he's at least one tier below Billy Smith, maybe two. It's time to separate them. I'm struggling to figure out who I like more between Fuhr and Vernon actually. I think they need to be closer together and they can both leave Smith alone.
No interest: Ron Hextall, Andy Moog, and I'm probably another game away from calling quits on Rejean Lemelin too. Pucks go through those guys, varying skating ability, lackluster game/shooter awareness. None of these guys should be on lists in my opinion.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
