Hockey Diversity Alliance slams NHL/NHLPA announcement of Player Inclusion Coalition

[Viqsi]

What does race have to do with sexual orientation and sexual identity?

The only thing they have in common is that they're intrinsics about a person (i.e. not choices) that unreasonable jerkasses like to make a big deal out of in ways that f*** said people over.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I have no issues in having these conversations but imo if the NHL clubs are running their own grass routes programs/partnering with local orgs like the HDA in their areas of jurisdiction should they be required to kick in millions extra to run a program in the Toronto Maple Leaf's back yard? Should the HDA not approach the Leafs to partner with their foundation in addressing grass route inclusion efforts in their area of jurisdiction? Heck maybe the Leafs are already doing something and they can combine their efforts instead of duplicating things.

This gets to the distinction between the NHL and its member clubs.

Clearly the individual franchises are doing things for various groups within their communities. That’s great — seriously, it should not be lost in the shuffle here — but it’s also extremely limited by nature. The topic here is efforts for a coherent league-wide initiative, directed centrally by the NHL head office.

The NHL is more than happy to take credit for the investments of its member franchises. You can see that sort of rhetoric all over their self-reported “achievements”, which were in fact the work of individual franchise foundations and marketing departments, operating independently. That’s not the same as the NHL itself doing the work.

To provide a sense of the difference — individual franchise crews produce ordinary regular season games, while the NHL central office crew runs the Winter Classic. That’s the sense of scale and impact that we’re talking about.

Also if they want to address grass routes issues they should be forming partnerships with those applicable leagues and associations first and foremost. At the end of the day the NHL has very little if any say or jurisdiction over those leagues.

From what they’ve said upthread, it sounds like they are doing that.

What the NHL can do and enforce is behaviour at the NHL level. I think them getting their own house in order first and foremost should be step one. What's the saying you can't help anyone until you help yourself first. Seems like we are starting to see some movement there with more diversification in the hockey opps departments. Grier as a GM, Iginla a special assistant to GM. The many women now in management. Change happens but maybe too slow for some.

While I do agree with this, there’s also a sneaky little dynamic where corporations “help the community” by investing their money and effort in recruitment and training, which is to say they become completely inward-facing with their efforts.

Diversifying the NHL workforce is important, but it’s a limited part of a larger picture. HDA is talking about meaningful, substantial work to build the actual hockey community. That means the NHL putting their money where their mouth is, which they have yet to do in any significant way.

Don’t get me started on the NCAA and junior systems… that’s a dumpster fire of a system which won’t do anything to help the situation.

 

[surixon]

This gets to the distinction between the NHL and its member clubs.

Clearly the individual franchises are doing things for various groups within their communities. That’s great — seriously, it should not be lost in the shuffle here — but it’s also extremely limited by nature. The topic here is efforts for a coherent league-wide initiative, directed centrally by the NHL head office.

The NHL is more than happy to take credit for the investments of its member franchises. You can see that sort of rhetoric all over their self-reported “achievements”, which were in fact the work of individual franchise foundations and marketing departments, operating independently. That’s not the same as the NHL itself doing the work.

To provide a sense of the difference — individual franchise crews produce ordinary regular season games, while the NHL central office crew runs the Winter Classic. That’s the sense of scale and impact that we’re talking about.



From what they’ve said upthread, it sounds like they are doing that.



While I do agree with this, there’s also a sneaky little dynamic where corporations “help the community” by investing their money and effort in recruitment and training, which is to say they become completely inward-facing with their efforts.

Diversifying the NHL workforce is important, but it’s a limited part of a larger picture. HDA is talking about meaningful, substantial work to build the actual hockey community. That means the NHL putting their money where their mouth is, which they have yet to do in any significant way.

Don’t get me started on the NCAA and junior systems… that’s a dumpster fire of a system which won’t do anything to help the situation.

What type of training would you like to see them offer? As is most hockey opps staff are packed with x players that had to work their way up through the lower leagues. So most of the training came at lower leagues prior to the NHL.

If you want employment targets in those leagues it's those leagues that would have to implement and enforce it.

Perhaps more focus should be spent creating opportunities at the AHL level. A development league where the NHL parent teams control the process.

 

[hangman005]

This nonsense social media clash reminds me of this video, and I cannot put it in better words than this lol.

Beat you to it by like 5 posts , but the main thing is.... I wasn't the only one walking away with that impression.

 

[Kennedys]

What with all this inclusion thing ? Is anybody excluded these days ?

 

[Viqsi]

What with all this inclusion thing ? Is anybody excluded these days ?

Yes. Frequently. Not as frequent as it used to be but still too often.

 

[Kennedys]

Yes. Frequently. Not as frequent as it used to be but still too often

Excluded from what ?

 

[DoyleG]

HDA: We demand diversity in the NHL.
***NHL Agrees to work with them***
HDA: We demand to be given full control over any initiatives.
***NHL Sets up its own initiative***
HDA: NHL IS RACIST!!!!!!!!

 

[daver]

I always wonder why these "diversity" incentives perform racial discrimination. For example, even this one only supplied equipment to BIPOC youths from these at-risk/underserved communities. If you promote racial inclusivity, why are you yourself performing racial discrimination?

Perhaps my ideal of treating everyone equally regardless of race is just not realistic.

Why? Our society is setup to do this exactly thing legally and through social norms; the vast majority of people want our society to be colour blind. You are correct to point out the hypocrisy when an "Inclusion" initiative specifically leaves out some based on race which ironically makes it less "Diverse".

People who call you naïve and to park your biases have been guilted into drinking the DEI koolaid. You can tell this because all they do is come into these discussions and try to browbeat dissenters into following the company line.

What they never do is respond to rational and reasonable suggestions such as trying to make these initiatives more "Inclusive" by simply focusing on socio-economic factors, and not race. Or engage in a discussion on other factors besides racism as to why there are less black people in hockey.

 

[Tofveve]

That person should also learn how to spell Jarome. Always a sign of respect when they can’t even bother to get your name right.

In fairness as a Flames fan since inception in the early 80s its a first name I still have to look up every single time I type it. Some names/words are like that. I'm sure there are a few like that for you even.

 

[Viqsi]

Excluded from what ?

Mine isn't a race thing. But to take one example, there's a diner I'd discovered on the south side of town (has awesome milkshakes) that I only got to enjoy for all of two or three days as I can't go back there anymore without violent threats. I've had healthcare professionals tell me basically to f*** off. And there's the whole sports thing, altho that's a far more complicated and nuanced discussion. And more and more people are trying to insist my situation and I don't actually exist and fighting to enshrine that in law.

It's far, far better than it used to be. But there's still a lot of gaps, and the pushback is vicious and entrenched.

 

[Viqsi]

Why? Our society is setup to do this exactly thing legally and through social norms; the vast majority of people want our society to be colour blind. You are correct to point out the hypocrisy when an "Inclusion" initiative specifically leaves out some based on race which ironically makes it less "Diverse".

Or maybe they're just focusing on that one part of the whole issue. Not ideal but not invalid either.

What they never do is respond to rational and reasonable suggestions such as trying to make these initiatives more "Inclusive" by simply focusing on socio-economic factors, and not race. Or engage in a discussion on other factors besides racism as to why there are less black people in hockey.

A large part of the issue there is that while other factors do exist, 1) they're frequently minor by comparison and 2) they're nonetheless used by genuinely racist jerks to subsequently insist that the problem doesn't actually exist and/or that their racist perspective is legit. So it's virtually impossible to debate such things in good faith thanks to those assholes.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

As a scientist, these gender/identity/race discussion remind me of the ridiculous evolution rebuttal: "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

It takes like 30 minutes to educate yourself, some just don't want to.

 

[Guinnes66]

Why? Our society is setup to do this exactly thing legally and through social norms; the vast majority of people want our society to be colour blind. You are correct to point out the hypocrisy when an "Inclusion" initiative specifically leaves out some based on race which ironically makes it less "Diverse".

People who call you naïve and to park your biases have been guilted into drinking the DEI koolaid. You can tell this because all they do is come into these discussions and try to browbeat dissenters into following the company line.

What they never do is respond to rational and reasonable suggestions such as trying to make these initiatives more "Inclusive" by simply focusing on socio-economic factors, and not race. Or engage in a discussion on other factors besides racism as to why there are less black people in hockey.

Bingo. I made a similar post earlier but for some reason it was removed. Enacting current discrimination to fight past discrimination is not the way to go. If the goal is to help give better access to hockey for impoverished minority groups then you simply design programs to help people based on socio-economic criteria. Given that some minority groups are over represented in lower income levels these programs will disproportionately help minority groups while not making race and other immutable characteristics the deciding factor.

I can guarantee you that programs based on socio economic criteria will be more effective then the solutions proposed by HDA. The proposals put forth by HDA are exactly what I would expect to see from athletes that have little to no education and likely get their information and worldview from social media. Their perspectives may be very valid and important but they are incredibly misplaced.

 

[Rob]

As a scientist, these gender/identity/race discussion remind me of the ridiculous evolution rebuttal: "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

It takes like 30 minutes to educate yourself, some just don't want to.

As a scientist you should be aware of the strawman fallacy

 

[Viqsi]

As a scientist you should be aware of the strawman fallacy

...which would apply if that were being used as a counterargument to anything specific rather than an observation of the general lack of quality arguments.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

As a scientist you should be aware of the strawman fallacy

I'm not sure you understand how that applies in a situation.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I can guarantee you that programs based on socio economic criteria will be more effective then the solutions proposed by HDA. The proposals put forth by HDA are exactly what I would expect to see from athletes that have little to no education and likely get their information and worldview from social media. Their perspectives may be very valid and important but they are incredibly misplaced.

It's more complicated than that. At the club level, a lot of work is being done to remove economic barriers to the game and that's a very worthy effort. But two important points remain:

- Rolling out a hockey initiative "based on socio economic criteria" is more difficult than it sounds. For one thing, what does the "socio" even mean in this context? Usually that means something as straightforward as race, gender, sexuality, etc. Introducing an economic element might make it more targeted, but how are you supposed to get at the "socio" factors without addressing those categories? To some extent you're just chasing your tail trying to ignore the elephant in the room.

- Beyond that, the fact remains that once economic factors are accounted for, certain racial (and other) categories still experience a degree of exclusion that does not apply to others. Put simply, it's easier to be the poor white kid in a room full of rich white kids, than to be the rich black kid in that same room, or the girl, or the openly gay kid. HDA's mission is specifically to address the racial dynamic which exists independently of the economic dynamic. If the NHL wants to address the economics as well, good on them! They will have a lot of support in that. But if they are deliberately avoiding addressing the racial factor, it's fair to ask why they would want to do that.

 

[todeskultes]

All is good. That's the problem, nobody can grift when everything is good, we need things to be upset about, things to call racist, then these groups can grift and attempt to coerce change towards their own values.


And nobody was ever excluded from this game, we had women leagues and different ethnic teams in the 1800's. We had Metis is the NHL in the 1920's, asian and Native and black players in the super-duper racist 1950's. One of the most beloved players of the past 20 years was a black guy named Jerome, who by his own admission had never faced an iota of prejudice in hockey, either growing up or in the pros. Hockey has never excluded, if you want it, it's there for you. If there are individuals in the game that are problematic than the problem is with the individual, not the game, and fans don't want to be coerced or shamed into accepting a BS notion that this game, which to Canadians mind you is a part of our culture, needs fixing - especially by those with an agenda and a script.

"Fans would yell, 'Go back to the South' and 'How come you're not picking cotton?' Things like that. It didn't bother me. I just wanted to be a hockey player, and if they couldn't accept that fact, that was their problem, not mine."

"O'Ree was then traded to the Montreal Canadiens. O'Ree described the Canadiens were run by racists and that he wasn't invited to try out for the team, but was sent to a minor league team in Hull, Quebec."

"After O'Ree's stint in the NHL, there were no other black players in the NHL until another Canadian player, Mike Marson, was drafted by the Washington Capitals in 1974."

Some quotes taken from Willie O'Ree's wikipedia page.

What you said is not grounded in reality. I assume then that you would say to O'Ree or any of the other BIPOC player that they should just be happy that they are allowed to play? Most people would say that anyone should able to play hockey without having to endure racial, homophobic, gender, and/or any other form of bigotry. The only reason I can see for someone disagreeing with this is that they themselves are

Even the discourse on the recent spitting incident perpetrated by K'Andre Miller highlights the need for enhancing inclusivity in the sport and trying to eradicate the racism that still abounds within the sport. If HF is at all to be an indicator of the average hockey fan, the amount of people I saw callig him a "thug" or an "animal" is deeply unsettling.

But this is why a player inclusion coalition is so important. Like many others I am deeply skeptical of the NHL in meaningfully addressing anything given that their most recent action related to inclusivity in hockey was to completely undermine it. But the fact of the matter is that the NHL, like any business, just wants to make money. And regardless of what some people on here want to think, most people in NA favour diversity and inclusion.

Ultimately, I cannot blame the HDA for constantly calling out the NHL because, you know, their stated mission is to promote diversity in hockey, of which the NHL is the top professional league... I think the HDA was fully justified in calling out the NHL given the previously mentioned regressive actions taken by the NHL (presumably because they do not want to deal with all the people crying and pissing themselves over players wearing Pride jerseys). So yeah, I doubt the NHL surprises me given their track record to date.

 

[Hockey 4 Life]

It's been hundreds of years since the enlightenment period and society is still trying to figure things out. Tolerance as a solution will never work because as a society what an individual tolerates changes. Love with simple kindness and dignity to all human beings is what we need to strive for. People may disagree with each other but if we agree every human life has equal value then we can build from their.

 

[Viqsi]

It's been hundreds of years since the enlightenment period and society is still trying to figure things out. Tolerance as a solution will never work because as a society what an individual tolerates changes. Love with simple kindness and dignity to all human beings is what we need to strive for. People may disagree with each other but if we agree every human life has equal value then we can build from their.

Alternatively, just post this link:

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

HDA: We demand diversity in the NHL.
***NHL Agrees to work with them***
HDA: We demand to be given full control over any initiatives.
***NHL Sets up its own initiative***
HDA: NHL IS RACIST!!!!!!!!

I get that this is how you've misrepresented the situation in your head so it's easy to dismiss, but that's not actually what's happened.

 

[T REX]

I challenge anyone on this board to visit any of the social media sites covering this topic. Horrific racism and bigotry in the comments section in every single one. Particularly disturbing was the Preds and Tenn State hockey program. It is systemic and wide. Racist comments out numbering the supporting ones 20-1. I have screen shots but I'd get banned. Feel free to go yourselves. See the racism. It is eyeopening. It is real. It is a HUGE problem

 

[Guinnes66]

It's more complicated than that. At the club level, a lot of work is being done to remove economic barriers to the game and that's a very worthy effort. But two important points remain:

- Rolling out a hockey initiative "based on socio economic criteria" is more difficult than it sounds. For one thing, what does the "socio" even mean in this context? Usually that means something as straightforward as race, gender, sexuality, etc. Introducing an economic element might make it more targeted, but how are you supposed to get at the "socio" factors without addressing those categories? To some extent you're just chasing your tail trying to ignore the elephant in the room.

- Beyond that, the fact remains that once economic factors are accounted for, certain racial (and other) categories still experience a degree of exclusion that does not apply to others. Put simply, it's easier to be the poor white kid in a room full of rich white kids, than to be the rich black kid in that same room, or the girl, or the openly gay kid. HDA's mission is specifically to address the racial dynamic which exists independently of the economic dynamic. If the NHL wants to address the economics as well, good on them! They will have a lot of support in that. But if they are deliberately avoiding addressing the racial factor, it's fair to ask why they would want to do that.

Socio economic does not include race, gender, sexuality at all. It only looks at four factors - occupation, education, income, wealth and where someone lives. In the case of promoting hockey diversity the main ones would be to ensure you are looking at providing advantages to lower income people and try to make sure you are targeting geographic locations that have diverse makeups.

To give you an example, providing hockey scholarships to only people of a certain skin colour is inherently a discriminatory policy. The idea behind it may be noble but the same goal can be achieved by specifically targeting those scholarships to diverse locations whereby there are lots of minority groups or targeting lower income families, which afterall are disproportiatly made up of the minority groups that people want to help.

HDA's list of demands included a quota for hiring black people to a certain percentage. Quota systems are simply ridiculous, regressive, arbitrary, and ineffective. Why the quota for only black people and not indians, asians, etc? Why no push to have quota's by skin colour in the NBA or the cricket league in canada? This type of policy can never even have an end point as you can ultimitely slice and dice people up into a million different arbitrary categories if you want to truly include all facets of gender, sexual orientation, cultural background, etc.

Your premise that people feel more comfortable around people of their own race has some kernel of truth but doesnt really matter. Every culture has different interests resulting in large congregations of one culture for certain events or sports. This kind of disparity does not require fixing, the only thing required is that there is no impedement or discrimination against other cultures from participating. Do we really need to have a quota system for NBA teams to make sure the one white guy on each team has fellow caucasions to feel comfortable? I reject that premise.

In the end, the goal of inclusivity and diversity (to the extent that it will naturally happen as you cannot force diversity by forcing people that have no interest in your sport to be involved) can be achieved by targeting programs at diverse locations, target diverse economic backgrounds, and by promoting of diverse role models to incentive kids of different backgrounds. That is it.....anything else is simply going into a discrimantory territory that has no possible end point.

 

[T REX]

Socio economic does not include race, gender, sexuality at all. It only looks at four factors - occupation, education, income, wealth and where someone lives. In the case of promoting hockey diversity the main ones would be to ensure you are looking at providing advantages to lower income people and try to make sure you are targeting geographic locations that have diverse makeups.

To give you an example, providing hockey scholarships to only people of a certain skin colour is inherently a discriminatory policy. The idea behind it may be noble but the same goal can be achieved by specifically targeting those scholarships to diverse locations whereby there are lots of minority groups or targeting lower income families, which afterall are disproportiatly made up of the minority groups that people want to help.

HDA's list of demands included a quota for hiring black people to a certain percentage. Quota systems are simply ridiculous, regressive, arbitrary, and ineffective. Why the quota for only black people and not indians, asians, etc? Why no push to have quota's by skin colour in the NBA or the cricket league in canada? This type of policy can never even have an end point as you can ultimitely slice and dice people up into a million different arbitrary categories if you want to truly include all facets of gender, sexual orientation, cultural background, etc.

Your premise that people feel more comfortable around people of their own race has some kernel of truth but doesnt really matter. Every culture has different interests resulting in large congregations of one culture for certain events or sports. This kind of disparity does not require fixing, the only thing required is that there is no impedement or discrimination against other cultures from participating. Do we really need to have a quota system for NBA teams to make sure the one white guy on each team has fellow caucasions to feel comfortable? I reject that premise.

In the end, the goal of inclusivity and diversity (to the extent that it will naturally happen as you cannot force diversity by forcing people that have no interest in your sport to be involved) can be achieved by targeting programs at diverse locations, target diverse economic backgrounds, and by promoting of diverse role models to incentive kids of different backgrounds. That is it.....anything else is simply going into a discrimantory territory that has no possible end point.

One question...why did we have the need for minority scholarships in the first place? Better yet...why was affirmative action even necessary in the first place?