U18: Hlinka Gretzky Cup 2024

[JackSlater]

OK, so again, you prove my original point -- TSN made the schedule for the Hlinka in conjunction with Hockey Canada.

TSN and Hockey Canada are a partnership, but TSN is the money maker. The IIHF doesn't say it's a rules violation if the tournament's main broadcaster creates the schedule for Hockey Canada to submit.



Ken Volden is TSN's Executive VP. "the very thing we built" is the World Junior tournament.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/3661437/2022/10/05/hockey-canada-tsn/

Nobody said it was a scheme. It was just an unfortunate reality.

... no one ever questioned that Hockey Canada, as the host, makes the Hlinka schedule. Obviously TSN is involved in those discussions. The ridiculous part of your post was the implication that there was anything unusual about USA playing five game in six nights (as every other semi-finalist did) or that it was unusual that the loser of the late semi-final game played in the afternoon the next day. It wouldn't have stuck out that much except that I remembered you as the guy making dumb comments about Hockey Canada/TSN controlling the schedule every year at the WJC.

The quote you found is no smoking gun either. TSN did not "build" the WJC in any literal sense, the tournament existed before TSN was involved. It's fairly obvious that the quote is in reference to TSN marketing the tournament into the event it has become. No one would conclude that TSN dictates the schedule of the tournament even when it's outside of Canada based on that quote. Well, except for one person who really wants to believe that I guess.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

... no one ever questioned that Hockey Canada, as the host, makes the Hlinka schedule. Obviously TSN is involved in those discussions. The ridiculous part of your post was the implication that there was anything unusual about USA playing five game in six nights (as every other semi-finalist did) or that it was unusual that the loser of the late semi-final game played in the afternoon the next day. It wouldn't have stuck out that much except that I remembered you as the guy making dumb comments about Hockey Canada/TSN controlling the schedule every year at the WJC.

The quote you found is no smoking gun either. TSN did not "build" the WJC in any literal sense, the tournament existed before TSN was involved. It's fairly obvious that the quote is in reference to TSN marketing the tournament into the event it has become. No one would conclude that TSN dictates the schedule of the tournament even when it's outside of Canada based on that quote. Well, except for one person who really wants to believe that I guess.

So you're implying that I'm implying LOL. All I said was the schedule played a part in Team USA not looking good in the BMG and said "Hockey Canada/TSN", so pick one or the other. You say Hockey Canada, I say TSN. I mean, this was all so silly and like five of you got all bent out of shape and said I hate Canada, called me a conspiracy theorist ad nauseum, and tried to insult me. Personally, I enjoy this sort of stuff. Going to guess you didn't know much about the TSN-HC-IIHF relationship before today, so congrats on being a little smarter.

 

[MeHateHe]

Relax. Don't get why you're getting so angry and defensive over this.

I'm not angry. I'm bemused. You're making excuses for your guys and trying to put the blame for their loss on anyone that isn't them or their federation. I'm just pointing out that it's a loser's excuse - and one that even the players aren't trying to use.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

I'm not angry. I'm bemused. You're making excuses for your guys and trying to put the blame for their loss on anyone that isn't them or their federation. I'm just pointing out that it's a loser's excuse - and one that even the players aren't trying to use.

No you def seem pretty angry. Again, nooooooooobody blamed the U.S. finish on scheduling. It was a part of a response to a poster who was disappointed with their overall showing. Nobody in the U.S. cares about winning the Hlinka except the coach, the kids, and their parents. I’m deeply sorry I’m not as crushed by their fourth-place finish as you’d like.

 

[JackSlater]

So you're implying that I'm implying LOL. All I said was the schedule played a part in Team USA not looking good in the BMG and said "Hockey Canada/TSN", so pick one or the other. You say Hockey Canada, I say TSN. I mean, this was all so silly and like five of you got all bent out of shape and said I hate Canada, called me a conspiracy theorist ad nauseum, and tried to insult me. Personally, I enjoy this sort of stuff. Going to guess you didn't know much about the TSN-HC-IIHF relationship before today, so congrats on being a little smarter.

I know what you said, I read it. You specifically said "Hockey Canada/TSN f***ed them over" in regard to USA and the schedule, a ridiculous statement and you were told as such. You doubled down on your nonsense conspiracy theories, and were told again how ridiculous your posts are and how ridiculous they make you look. It even got to the point of tediously demonstrating how wrong you are regarding certain points you have since backed off of, such as Canada getting easier opening matchups and prime time slots when the tournament is in other countries.

I haven't told you anything I didn't already know and you've tried and failed to grasp at straws to make your points, mainly with interpreting basic sentences, so I don't know what there is to learn. Probably people are dumber for having read the whole thing, if they bothered to do so.

 

[Golden_Jet]

No you def seem pretty angry. Again, nooooooooobody blamed the U.S. finish on scheduling. It was a part of a response to a poster who was disappointed with their overall showing. Nobody in the U.S. cares about winning the Hlinka except the coach, the kids, and their parents. I’m deeply sorry I’m not as crushed by their fourth-place finish as you’d like.

Probably best to take the L and move on, with your fked then over. JackS has buried you now.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

I know what you said, I read it. You specifically said "Hockey Canada/TSN f***ed them over" in regard to USA and the schedule, a ridiculous statement and you were told as such. You doubled down on your nonsense conspiracy theories, and were told again how ridiculous your posts are and how ridiculous they make you look. It even got to the point of tediously demonstrating how wrong you are regarding certain points you have since backed off of, such as Canada getting easier opening matchups and prime time slots when the tournament is in other countries.

I haven't told you anything I didn't already know and you've tried and failed to grasp at straws to make your points, mainly with interpreting basic sentences, so I don't know what there is to learn. Probably people are dumber for having read the whole thing, if they bothered to do so.

Hey I’m just going off of what you said, that Hockey Canada and TSN work together in making the Hlinka schedule. If the Czechs played late then early, I’d say thev same thing — the schedule did them no favors (AKA screwed over). Not my fault that you’re so protective of Hockey Canada that you also don’t see how any team in that spot would have liked an extra few hours of rest. Why wasn’t the Gold Medal Game at 7:30 local like the previous five games? The shift from 7:30pm to 6pm was TSN’s call to get it in EDT. Again, it’s not a big deal. Just one of several observations.

Probably best to take the L and move on, with your fked then over. JackS has buried you now.

What language is this?

 

[JackSlater]

Hey I’m just going off of what you said, that Hockey Canada and TSN work together in making the Hlinka schedule. If the Czechs played late then early, I’d say thev same thing — the schedule did them no favors (AKA screwed over). Not my fault that you’re so protective of Hockey Canada that you also don’t see how any team in that spot would have liked an extra few hours of rest. Why wasn’t the Gold Medal Game at 7:30 local like the previous five games? The shift from 7:30pm to 6pm was TSN’s call to get it in EDT. Again, it’s not a big deal. Just one of several observations.



What language is this?

I don't disagree that USA or any country would be better off with more rest. I disagree with the statement that you actually made - that USA was f***ed over by Hockey Canada/TSN and the schedule. I likely wouldn't have bothered commenting on it if I didn't remember you as the guy who made nonsense statements in the past regarding Hockey Canada/TSN and the WJC. As it is though you demonstrated in subsequent posts that the tinfoil hat was firmly on your head.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

I don't disagree that USA or any country would be better off with more rest. I disagree with the statement that you actually made - that USA was f***ed over by Hockey Canada/TSN and the schedule. I likely wouldn't have bothered commenting on it if I didn't remember you as the guy who made nonsense statements in the past regarding Hockey Canada/TSN and the WJC. As it is though you demonstrated in subsequent posts that the tinfoil hat was firmly on your head.

What nonsense?

1) I said the spirit of the WJC is no longer about the competition and is a cash cow -- fact
2) TSN/Hockey Canada partnership cares more about making money than anything else -- fact
3) The IIHF lets Canada dominate the WJC bidding process -- fact
4) Hockey Canada covered up sexual assaults and paid out victims with hush money-- fact
5) IIHF doesn't hold the U18 WC in Canada because it interferes with the CHL playoffs -- fact
6) Hockey Canada hijacked the Hlinka to profit from it -- fact
7) IIHF President Tardiff risked lives by running the 2022 COVID WJC "to survive" financially -- fact.
8) TSN and Hockey Canada work together in making the Hlinka/WJC schedule in Canada -- Fact

Where's the conspiracy? Where's the lie?

 

[MeHateHe]

1) I said the spirit of the WJC is no longer about the competition and is a cash cow -- fact
2) TSN/Hockey Canada partnership cares more about making money than anything else -- fact

Area man discovers capitalism exists but seems to think it is a creation of Hockey Canada and TSN.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Area man discovers capitalism exists but seems to think it is a creation of Hockey Canada and TSN.

This is an admission, FYI. Don’t know if that’s what you’re going for, but thanks.

 

[MeHateHe]

This is an admission, FYI. Don’t know if that’s what you’re going for, but thanks.

Yes, your Socratic wit has bested me on this day, good sir.

To sum up:
Hockey Canada and TSN have combined to kill the spirit of competition in the World U20 tournament to make it a cash cow, but you don't hate Hockey Canada or TSN and it's not a conspiracy.
Hockey Canada and TSN managed to "f*** over" the US team at the Hlinka. But you're not even mad. And you don't care. And you don't think that that's an excuse or anything. In fact, you're so dispassionate about this, while telling other people not to get angry, you are making post after post, railing about how the US team was hard done by in a tournament you don't care about and isn't important - that tournament during which Hockey Canada and TSN "f***ed over" the US team.

Seriously, this is the funniest thing.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Yes, your Socratic wit has bested me on this day, good sir.

To sum up:
Hockey Canada and TSN have combined to kill the spirit of competition in the World U20 tournament to make it a cash cow, but you don't hate Hockey Canada or TSN and it's not a conspiracy.
Hockey Canada and TSN managed to "f*** over" the US team at the Hlinka. But you're not even mad. And you don't care. And you don't think that that's an excuse or anything. In fact, you're so dispassionate about this, while telling other people not to get angry, you are making post after post, railing about how the US team was hard done by in a tournament you don't care about and isn't important - that tournament during which Hockey Canada and TSN "f***ed over" the US team.

Seriously, this is the funniest thing.

This is hyperbole.

 

[MeHateHe]

This is hyperbole.

The I-Was-Just-Kidding gambit. It didn't work for me when I was in eighth grade either.

 

[JackSlater]

What nonsense?

1) I said the spirit of the WJC is no longer about the competition and is a cash cow -- fact
2) TSN/Hockey Canada partnership cares more about making money than anything else -- fact
3) The IIHF lets Canada dominate the WJC bidding process -- fact
4) Hockey Canada covered up sexual assaults and paid out victims with hush money-- fact
5) IIHF doesn't hold the U18 WC in Canada because it interferes with the CHL playoffs -- fact
6) Hockey Canada hijacked the Hlinka to profit from it -- fact
7) IIHF President Tardiff risked lives by running the 2022 COVID WJC "to survive" financially -- fact.
8) TSN and Hockey Canada work together in making the Hlinka/WJC schedule in Canada -- Fact

Where's the conspiracy? Where's the lie?

Your nonsense would be first off that Hockey Canada and TSN f***ed over USA in the Hlinka tournament. Then that Hockey Canada, TSN and whoever else in the conspiracy you believe exists control the schedule of the WJC, even when it is not in Canada, and you even claimed to have a spreadsheet that demonstrates that Canada gets easier opening matches and prime time slots. Of course you have backed off this to a degree since it was demonstrated to be nonsense.

These other things that you are throwing out now to see what sticks, because you obviously don't have anything against Hockey Canada, TSN, or whatever voices kick around in your head, don't really need to be addressed but needless to say several of them are your opinion and not facts. Numbers 1, 4, and 7 made me laugh the most in terms of conveying your desperation.

I am curious - why did you not include in your dubious list of facts that TSN and Hockey Canada control the schedule even when the tournament is not in Canada? That's one of the things you actually said, not pretened to say later on.

It was around 2017 when I noticed Canada got the better time slots, easier opening matchups, etc. and it has not changed since. This was a hypothesis from empirical data — take the last 50 U18-U20 tournaments involving Canada and you will deduce that TSN drives the schedule, not the host federation.

A literal conspiracy where the IIHF goes against its own official rules for the benefit of TSN and Hockey Canada, and our not-legitimate source here has the empirical data to show it. Why not include that in your facts? Couldn't be that you were just spouting things off as facts when they weren't. Must be something else underneath that tinfoil hat that kept you from doing that.

 

[MeHateHe]

Your nonsense would be first off that Hockey Canada and TSN f***ed over USA in the Hlinka tournament. Then that Hockey Canada, TSN and whoever else in the conspiracy you believe exists control the schedule of the WJC, even when it is not in Canada, and you even claimed to have a spreadsheet that demonstrates that Canada gets easier opening matches and prime time slots. Of course you have backed off this to a degree since it was demonstrated to be nonsense.

These other things that you are throwing out now to see what sticks, because you obviously don't have anything against Hockey Canada, TSN, or whatever voices kick around in your head, don't really need to be addressed but needless to say several of them are your opinion and not facts. Numbers 1, 4, and 7 made me laugh the most in terms of conveying your desperation.

I am curious - why did you not include in your dubious list of facts that TSN and Hockey Canada control the schedule even when the tournament is not in Canada? That's one of the things you actually said, not pretened to say later on.



A literal conspiracy where the IIHF goes against its own official rules for the benefit of TSN and Hockey Canada, and our not-legitimate source here has the empirical data to show it. Why not include that in your facts? Couldn't be that you were just spouting things off as facts when they weren't. Must be something else underneath that tinfoil hat that kept you from doing that.

No, it’s all hyperbole. We’re not supposed to take anything he says seriously. And that means ignoring all the posts for the past three pages.

 

[ORRFForever]

No, it’s all hyperbole. We’re not supposed to take anything he says seriously. And that means ignoring all the posts for the past three pages.

Yes, guys, let it go. Ignore. Please!

 

[Czechboy]

More comments post Hlinka then during it.lol

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Apologize that this isn't Hlinka-related but it does relate to Canada having an obvious advantage when it comes to scheduling in non-U18 WC prospect tournaments.

Since 2010, Canada has played or was scheduled to play 100 WJC games. Of those 100, 19 were scheduled before 4pm local but only eight in the last 10 years. Conversely, the U.S. has played 26 games before 4pm local in that same span.

Canada up until the Summer 2022 games had three local start times earlier than 3pm regardless of who hosted the event and three since. The U.S. from 2010-2024 appeared in 11 games with local start times between 11am and 2:30 pm local.

So 26-19 U.S for local starts before 4pm, and 11-6 U.S. for local starts between 11am and 2:30 pm.

Additionally, you can see that Canada has had a significant number of prime-time slots since dominating the bidding process and will adjust local start times in the Pacific and Mountain zones to get the coveted East Coast prime-time slot.

No conspiracy. Just an observation. However, I would be concerned if I worked for USA Hockey about the significant disparity in AM/early-PM start times vs. Canada's. I noticed this trend years ago.

Lastly, I want to reiterate that I am not insinutating Canada wins golds because of this. They are the world's dominant hockey power and deservedly so. Again, an observation backed by data.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Your nonsense would be first off that Hockey Canada and TSN f***ed over USA in the Hlinka tournament. Then that Hockey Canada, TSN and whoever else in the conspiracy you believe exists control the schedule of the WJC, even when it is not in Canada, and you even claimed to have a spreadsheet that demonstrates that Canada gets easier opening matches and prime time slots. Of course you have backed off this to a degree since it was demonstrated to be nonsense.

These other things that you are throwing out now to see what sticks, because you obviously don't have anything against Hockey Canada, TSN, or whatever voices kick around in your head, don't really need to be addressed but needless to say several of them are your opinion and not facts. Numbers 1, 4, and 7 made me laugh the most in terms of conveying your desperation.

I am curious - why did you not include in your dubious list of facts that TSN and Hockey Canada control the schedule even when the tournament is not in Canada? That's one of the things you actually said, not pretened to say later on.



A literal conspiracy where the IIHF goes against its own official rules for the benefit of TSN and Hockey Canada, and our not-legitimate source here has the empirical data to show it. Why not include that in your facts? Couldn't be that you were just spouting things off as facts when they weren't. Must be something else underneath that tinfoil hat that kept you from doing that.

See post #1319. Canada with a clear scheduling advantage in terms of start times and prime-time slots, mostly from hosting the event but clearly get favorable European start times as well to prevent North American broadcasts at 4am to 6am.

As far as quality of competition in the first two games (using the Big 6 Hockey Powers RUS, CAN, USA, SWE, FIN, CZE)

(2010-2022W only due to watered-down field after 2022 Russia ban)

Czech Rep. 18/26 = 70%
Russia 14/26 = 54%
Finland 13/26 = 50%
Sweden 11/26 = 42%
Canada 11/26 = 42%
U.S. 9/26 = 35%

This is cyclical -- the U.S. and Canada win most of the golds and get favorable matchups early so they can win or compete for more golds. Pretty clear that Canada and the U.S. have a scheduling advantage early on. This is clearly unfair to Russia, the Czechs, and the Finns, and you can deduce that this disparity is both unfair and driven by ratings. How so? 1) the 12/31 game has to be USA-CAN as long as they're in the same group for ratings purposes only and B) ensure that Canada and the U.S. get one of the first two seeds in Group play to increase the likelihood of a GMG matchup and higher ratings.

Dates for All USA-CAN games in Group Play, 2010-2020:

12/31/09
12/31/11
12/30/12 -- Russia hosted
12/31/13 -- Sweden hosted
12/31/14
12/26/15 -- Finland hosted
12/31/16
12/29/17 -- the outdoor game
12/26/19 -- Czech hosted

This ties back to the spirit of the tournament. Why not give the Czechs an easier slate early on? This is all by design. Capitalism explains it. It doesn't excuse it.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

The I-Was-Just-Kidding gambit. It didn't work for me when I was in eighth grade either.

No, what you wrote about what I said was hyperbole. Nice try.

 

[FLAMESFAN]

If more Americans tuned into these games, maybe they'd get better time slots?

 

[Steve Kournianos]

NOTE: I left out the annual 9th and 10th place cannon fodder (GER, AUT, BLR, LAT, KAZ, DEN) since they rotate too often and nearly always get the shitty schedule. This breakout only focuses on the Big 6, the Slovaks and the Swiss since they are always in it.

Here is the early-start breakdown for all WJC non-relegation games between 2010 and 2024. Keep in mind that the 2010 start date is not cherrypicked and a 15-year sample is more than adequate. First, it the farthest the IIHF Hydra site I use can cover (2010-2020). Second, it signifies IMO the peak of Canadian WJC popularity after the 5-for-5 and the thrilling WJC GMG to the U.S. (2010).

The numbers for early-start times (10am local to 1:30pm local) are quite telling. From 2010 to 2024, there were 81 non-relegation WJC games scheduled for early starts. Why does this matter? Because players admittedly hate early starts and claim it throws off from their routine from the bulk of prime-time starts during league play.

Nonetheless, it is clear Canada has managed to avoid this constraint almost entirely for nearly two decades. Hosting the games and subsequently making their own schedule (per IIHF guidelines) shows they choose to avoid this. Another takeaway relevant to my "HC/TSN screwed Team USA over" comment that hurt people's feelings is that Canada scheduled Team USA for SIX early start times on North American soil while only scheduling one for themselves, although that was the 2012 BMG that was already locked in.

Anyway, here is the breakdown for the 81 early-start WJC games from 2010-2024. Included was the handful of cancelled games from posted schedule for the 2022 games that were shut down mid-tournament:

CZE-26 (32%)
FIN-25(31%)
SUI-21 (26%)
SVK-17 (21%)
SWE-12 (15%)
RUS-11 (14%)
USA-9 (11%)
CAN-3 (3%)

The same nearly applies when games are in Europe and the Canadians aren't hosting and (presumably) don't have control of the schedule.

EUR Host (15 games with start times from 12pm-130pm)

SVK-7
CZE-5
FIN-4
SUI-4
USA-3
RUS-2
CAN-1
SWE-0

 

[JackSlater]

See post #1319. Canada with a clear scheduling advantage in terms of start times and prime-time slots, mostly from hosting the event but clearly get favorable European start times as well to prevent North American broadcasts at 4am to 6am.

As far as quality of competition in the first two games (using the Big 6 Hockey Powers RUS, CAN, USA, SWE, FIN, CZE)

(2010-2022W only due to watered-down field after 2022 Russia ban)

Czech Rep. 18/26 = 70%
Russia 14/26 = 54%
Finland 13/26 = 50%
Sweden 11/26 = 42%
Canada 11/26 = 42%
U.S. 9/26 = 35%

This is cyclical -- the U.S. and Canada win most of the golds and get favorable matchups early so they can win or compete for more golds. Pretty clear that Canada and the U.S. have a scheduling advantage early on. This is clearly unfair to Russia, the Czechs, and the Finns, and you can deduce that this disparity is both unfair and driven by ratings. How so? 1) the 12/31 game has to be USA-CAN as long as they're in the same group for ratings purposes only and B) ensure that Canada and the U.S. get one of the first two seeds in Group play to increase the likelihood of a GMG matchup and higher ratings.

Dates for All USA-CAN games in Group Play, 2010-2020:

12/31/09
12/31/11
12/30/12 -- Russia hosted
12/31/13 -- Sweden hosted
12/31/14
12/26/15 -- Finland hosted
12/31/16
12/29/17 -- the outdoor game
12/26/19 -- Czech hosted

This ties back to the spirit of the tournament. Why not give the Czechs an easier slate early on? This is all by design. Capitalism explains it. It doesn't excuse it.

I'll give you credit Kourny for posting your own data. Many people just f*** off and disappear like a ghost. Respect for that. Now what I don't see is anything of note outside of when Canada hosts the tournament. Obviously when Canada hosts the tournament the schedule is one that benefits Canada to a degree, just as it is in every host country. That said, what you showed is a far cry from proof that Hockey Canada/TSN/whoever else creates the schedule rather than the actual host nation. The IIHF rules explicitly state who creates the schedule and just looking at the tournaments indicates that the host country clearly generates the schedule.

Are there economic factors at play? No doubt there are. It's a far cry to jump from teams scheduling the big draws in spots where they will make the tournament the most money to one country and one network create the schedule regardless of where the tournament is. That difference is where you are finding issues.

 

[Golden_Jet]

NOTE: I left out the annual 9th and 10th place cannon fodder (GER, AUT, BLR, LAT, KAZ, DEN) since they rotate too often and nearly always get the shitty schedule. This breakout only focuses on the Big 6, the Slovaks and the Swiss since they are always in it.

Here is the early-start breakdown for all WJC non-relegation games between 2010 and 2024. Keep in mind that the 2010 start date is not cherrypicked and a 15-year sample is more than adequate. First, it the farthest the IIHF Hydra site I use can cover (2010-2020). Second, it signifies IMO the peak of Canadian WJC popularity after the 5-for-5 and the thrilling WJC GMG to the U.S. (2010).

The numbers for early-start times (10am local to 1:30pm local) are quite telling. From 2010 to 2024, there were 81 non-relegation WJC games scheduled for early starts. Why does this matter? Because players admittedly hate early starts and claim it throws off from their routine from the bulk of prime-time starts during league play.

Nonetheless, it is clear Canada has managed to avoid this constraint almost entirely for nearly two decades. Hosting the games and subsequently making their own schedule (per IIHF guidelines) shows they choose to avoid this. Another takeaway relevant to my "HC/TSN screwed Team USA over" comment that hurt people's feelings is that Canada scheduled Team USA for SIX early start times on North American soil while only scheduling one for themselves, although that was the 2012 BMG that was already locked in.

Anyway, here is the breakdown for the 81 early-start WJC games from 2010-2024. Included was the handful of cancelled games from posted schedule for the 2022 games that were shut down mid-tournament:

CZE-26 (32%)
FIN-25(31%)
SUI-21 (26%)
SVK-17 (21%)
SWE-12 (15%)
RUS-11 (14%)
USA-9 (11%)
CAN-3 (3%)

The same nearly applies when games are in Europe and the Canadians aren't hosting and (presumably) don't have control of the schedule.

EUR Host (15 games with start times from 12pm-130pm)

SVK-7
CZE-5
FIN-4
SUI-4
USA-3
RUS-2
CAN-1
SWE-0

View attachment 901035

Yes relegation games get early start times, nothing new there, that’s the way it should be. and has been.
Yes if a team draws in way more viewers, they will get better times.