OT: HFPens Community Lounge: Its been 84 years... But now Karlsson is here

[Buddy Bizarre]

Nah, every cop I've ever met is a herb.

I think this points to the dehumanization of a profession. I play hockey with a few people in law enforcement. 1 is an absolute dickbag and can totally see him wailing on some poor kid. The others are down to earth people.

I look at it like this: every cop wants to go home alive. There are plenty of people who would like nothing else but to seriously hurt or kill a cop. There are others that justify their actions of stealing or threatening to injure others as a means to complete whatever is in their brain at the time. Cops happen to be the barrier to the execution of their crime.

Don't get me wrong...plenty of bad cops out there. But I know there are plenty of bad people in other professions too. But none of those other professions are where you literally put your life on the line to help people that are extremely difficult and have this much scrutiny.

But again, this dude's death is now backpage news in place of the Chinese balloon,,,swept under the rug like anyone else could have predicted.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Being a pizza delivery driver or a taxi driver is still way more dangerous than being a cop by all available statistics and metrics. And yet they aren't hyping themselves into beating on customers who don't tip or who skip out on a fare.

At the end of the day, I can only go by what cops I've encountered ARE and not what I want them to be.

We give cops extra privileges with the idea that they take on extra scrutiny and responsibility for their actions as the enforcers of the state's powers over life and death and freedom. If they can't handle that, they shouldn't be cops. And if the good cops protect bad cops, they're worse than criminals.

edit: in a way, I think we over-emphasize being a "cop as hero" to the point where it hurts the actual ability of the police themselves to be normal people who lead normal lives who also have an important job. The job is an important one, but so is a garbage man or a teacher or an air traffic controller.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Being a pizza delivery driver or a taxi driver is still way more dangerous than being a cop by all available statistics and metrics. And yet they aren't hyping themselves into beating on customers who don't tip or who skip out on a fare.

At the end of the day, I can only go by what cops I've encountered ARE and not what I want them to be.

We give cops extra privileges with the idea that they take on extra scrutiny and responsibility for their actions as the enforcers of the state's powers over life and death and freedom. If they can't handle that, they shouldn't be cops. And if the good cops protect bad cops, they're worse than criminals.

By workplace fatalities, yea probably more dangerous to be a taxi driver. Do those metrics take into account how many events that police have successfully de-escalated a situation? Likely no statistic that law enforcement can say "well I prevented 2 armed robberies and 1 murder today" Probably not. So how do you objectively measure "peace"?

Again, step back and recognize what these people do: they are called into situations that are beyond tense and have to make split second decisions about who is a threat and who to believe. To do that for years is something humans are not wired to do: paranoia and brain wiring changes with those experiences.

I agree with your statements about whether people should be cops or not and about the "brotherhood" looking out for each other. That shit has to go. No disagreement on that

Assuming all police are bad people is no different than what people are accusing the cops themselves of doing: stereotyping

So why continue the trope?

 

[HandshakeLine]

Again, step back and recognize what these people do: they are called into situations that are beyond tense and have to make split second decisions about who is a threat and who to believe. To do that for years is something humans are not wired to do: paranoia and brain wiring changes with those experiences.

In those cases, maybe being a cop should not be a permanent job, like being a frontline soldier is not a permanent job? Maybe there should be an actual effort to root out these horrible problems because being a cop is very well paid and you get power over life and death.

Look, I'm sure there's cops out there who get this and are great. I've never met them, however, and my interactions with cops as a white, educated, middle class dude have always been incredibly unpleasant even in normal circumstances (one particularly striking time, I got mugged in Chicago and a cop refused to take my description and the plate of my assailant and wanted me to report that a black man had stolen my money when the assailant was white to the point of threatening me with filing a false report if I walked, no joke). My (asian immigrant) wife is terrified of them. I can't blame any minority for not wanting to deal with cops and being scared of them because, hell, that's the smart thing to be.

Even in this tiny incredibly safe country now cops are equally as nasty to deal with. At some point you have to start to assume it's not always the specifics of the job (we don't really do shootings mass or otherwise here) and the fact that the job self-selects for certain qualities which are not qualities I like to associate with.

Violent crime rates (US) have been plummeting in this country for the last 30 years and are at historic lows. So why are cops more traumatized now than ever before?

To put it into context, here's data on violent crime per 100k from 1990 to 2020 from the FBI:

We see minor spikes around 9-11 and 2020, which seem to pop up around, well, 9-11 and the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic hysteria. 2021 also reported a drop in violent crime, IIRC, which isn't shown here. The point is, being a cop in terms of traumatic events is safer than it was in the 1970s or 1980s or even 1990s, but cops feel themselves more traumatized now. That shouldn't be happening if we're just talking about exposure to events themselves, there must be something else driving it.

 

[Gurglesons]

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

In those cases, maybe being a cop should not be a permanent job, like being a frontline soldier is not a permanent job? Maybe there should be an actual effort to root out these horrible problems because being a cop is very well paid and you get power over life and death.

Look, I'm sure there's cops out there who get this and are great. I've never met them, however, and my interactions with cops as a white, educated, middle class dude have always been incredibly unpleasant even in normal circumstances (one particularly striking time, I got mugged in Chicago and a cop refused to take my description and the plate of my assailant and wanted me to report that a black man had stolen my money when the assailant was white to the point of threatening me with filing a false report if I walked, no joke). My (asian immigrant) wife is terrified of them. I can't blame any minority for not wanting to deal with cops and being scared of them because, hell, that's the smart thing to be.

Even in this tiny incredibly safe country now cops are equally as nasty to deal with. At some point you have to start to assume it's not always the specifics of the job (we don't really do shootings mass or otherwise here) and the fact that the job self-selects for certain qualities which are not qualities I like to associate with.

Violent crime rates (US) have been plummeting in this country for the last 30 years and are at historic lows. So why are cops more traumatized now than ever before?

To put it into context, here's data on violent crime per 100k from 1990 to 2020 from the FBI:

We see minor spikes around 9-11 and 2020, which seem to pop up around, well, 9-11 and the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic hysteria. 2021 also reported a drop in violent crime, IIRC, which isn't shown here. The point is, being a cop in terms of traumatic events is safer than it was in the 1970s or 1980s or even 1990s, but cops feel themselves more traumatized now. That shouldn't be happening if we're just talking about exposure to events themselves, there must be something else driving it.

That's actually a well- thought idea: rotate front line police with adminstrative duties.

And you ask "why are PO in a heightened state with crime relatively low?" I'm surprised you're asking this. Check out how many people are concealed carry owners over the years- that's merely the law abiding citizens. Do you think the drug dealer on the corner has a CC license? 20 years ago, the cop that pulled over a soccer mom for speeding likely didn't have a CCL. Now the odds are that she does and he's got to wonder if she's having a bad day and will reach for that weapon. There are more guns in this country and access to them than ever before. Police are outgunned and they over-compensate by their own use of force lest they be seen as weak.

I spent like 10 mins searching for this interview they did with 2Pac (can't find it). I distinctly remember this interview bc it was quite introspective of him. He certainly didn't have much love for cops and I'm paraphrasing. But he made a comment about how he understands their mindset. He describes that where he came from there was always a war over turf between rival gangs. Well now you are introducing a 3rd party (police) who just assumes that everyone is bad in this particular area so they are going to shoot first and ask questions later. This is the fear and paranoia cops face each day. Again, like all of us they want to come home alive to their families.

But we're getting into solutions whereas I'm discussing the present state of policing. Which frankly, it sucks given the multitude of events.

And I'll go back to my original point: you are stereotyping a particular group due to anecdotal evidence.
What if I typed out "Every {insert POC group} I've come across were jerks"? I believe you're a professor, so what if I said that same thing about every instructor I had in college?

We are too quick to paint with a broad brush. If you want to call it human nature fine but if you want to manifest change, then mindsets have to come first

 

[HandshakeLine]

I believe you're a professor, so what if I said that same thing about every instructor I had in college?

I mean, I would understand why students feel that way. I've had those professors too, and it's one of the reasons I'm reactive in my teaching. I'm fair, but I don't want to have an adversarial relationship with my class, that's the point. It's not me vs. students, it's me with the students. That's where the relationship between cops and civilians seems to break down. It's not a them vs us and if a cop feels that, then the cop shouldn't be a cop. A cop should be a civilian first and a cop a distant second. It's a job, not a hereditary position.

And again, I'm not saying every cop is a prick, but I'm also saying none of the one's I've met haven't been. I don't think it's because only assholes become cops, I think it's because they're trained to be assholes and you have to break that from the inside. But either way giving asshole cops the benefit of the doubt does nothing-- they have the responsibility to behave, if they can't do it, they shouldn't be cops. Period. If they're scared, retire. Give 'em a pension and let 'em go do something else, don't penalize them. But if you cannot act the way you need to do to do your job, you shouldn't be doing it. If I'm a teacher and I burn out on teaching and can't deal with it anymore, do I get a pass for being a horrible teacher because kids are mean shitheads and teaching is stressful underpaid work? No. And with 6 year olds shooting teachers these days, I don't think it's getting any safer.

And you ask "why are PO in a heightened state with crime relatively low?" I'm surprised you're asking this. Check out how many people are concealed carry owners over the years- that's merely the law abiding citizens. Do you think the drug dealer on the corner has a CC license? 20 years ago, the cop that pulled over a soccer mom for speeding likely didn't have a CCL. Now the odds are that she does and he's got to wonder if she's having a bad day and will reach for that weapon. There are more guns in this country and access to them than ever before. Police are outgunned and they over-compensate by their own use of force lest they be seen as weak.

I'm asking because it's a public hysteria not an actual thing. I lived in southside Chicago for 12 years, I was around murders (5 in a one-block radius one year) and shootings and the absolute worst trouble in that city was CPD, who incidentally ran their own black-block torture site for decades. CCLs are a not why cops are scared, cops being scared (and also not trusted) is why people have CCLs.

And anyhow, I've said my piece on this because arguing about politics on a hockey board is a sure way to dumb myself down enough for an administrative position and I don't want to spend my days as a dean. Even with the pay raise, I'd find myself reading DK and agreeing with him, and that's not good for me. Plus, I like ya as a poster, and talking about politics is a good way to lose friends and acquaintances.

 

[LOGiK]

The job is an important one,

What would you all agree on... as, say, the most unimportant jobs?

 

[Deport Ogie]

What would you all agree on... as, say, the most unimportant jobs?

Ron Hextall's trade hotline phone repairman!

*inb4 Pens x

 

[LOGiK]

Plus, I like ya as a poster, and talking about politics is a good way to lose friends and acquaintances.

Human's are such interesting creatures....
(we like each other, but we avoid talking about where we would likely hate each other)

Can't wait to go people watching in the spring.... winter sucks for everything.

 

[HandshakeLine]

What would you all agree on... as, say, the most unimportant jobs?

oh, general manager of the Pittsburgh Penguins for sure.

 

[LOGiK]

Finished Julius Caesar: The Civil War... 300ish pages plus few pages of notes... innn 16 days.
Brutal times those pesky Romans stirred up. Not like it sounded more peaceful outside the war, constant never-ending struggle for power, food, control and whatever else...
Well, finishing that up much sooner than I figured on.... my daunting summer book awaits. The Brothers Karamozov.

I don't know why but I found King Juba to be the comedic relief for me.... he just couldn't catch a break =P
Damned if you do, damned if you do not.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I mean, I would understand why students feel that way. I've had those professors too, and it's one of the reasons I'm reactive in my teaching. I'm fair, but I don't want to have an adversarial relationship with my class, that's the point. It's not me vs. students, it's me with the students. That's where the relationship between cops and civilians seems to break down. It's not a them vs us and if a cop feels that, then the cop shouldn't be a cop. A cop should be a civilian first and a cop a distant second. It's a job, not a hereditary position.

And again, I'm not saying every cop is a prick, but I'm also saying none of the one's I've met haven't been. I don't think it's because only assholes become cops, I think it's because they're trained to be assholes and you have to break that from the inside. But either way giving asshole cops the benefit of the doubt does nothing-- they have the responsibility to behave, if they can't do it, they shouldn't be cops. Period. If they're scared, retire. Give 'em a pension and let 'em go do something else, don't penalize them. But if you cannot act the way you need to do to do your job, you shouldn't be doing it. If I'm a teacher and I burn out on teaching and can't deal with it anymore, do I get a pass for being a horrible teacher because kids are mean shitheads and teaching is stressful underpaid work? No. And with 6 year olds shooting teachers these days, I don't think it's getting any safer.


I'm asking because it's a public hysteria not an actual thing. I lived in southside Chicago for 12 years, I was around murders (5 in a one-block radius one year) and shootings and the absolute worst trouble in that city was CPD, who incidentally ran their own black-block torture site for decades. CCLs are a not why cops are scared, cops being scared (and also not trusted) is why people have CCLs.

And anyhow, I've said my piece on this because arguing about politics on a hockey board is a sure way to dumb myself down enough for an administrative position and I don't want to spend my days as a dean. Even with the pay raise, I'd find myself reading DK and agreeing with him, and that's not good for me. Plus, I like ya as a poster, and talking about politics is a good way to lose friends and acquaintances.

No problem...I appreciate the civil discourse. Not that we're taking about civics, but the polite discourse

 

[HandshakeLine]

No problem...I appreciate the civil discourse. Not that we're taking about civics, but the polite discourse

Hey I might be an ass, but I'd always treat anyone here to a friendly beverage of their choice.

 

[Deport Ogie]

Hey I might be an ass, but I'd always treat anyone here to a friendly beverage of their choice.

'cept drummers. You jerk.

 

[HandshakeLine]

'cept drummers. You jerk.

nah, we can talk about why you can't seem to find the pocket over a nice pint or two.

 

[Deport Ogie]

nah, we can talk about why you can't seem to find the pocket over a nice pint or two.

Hey man, I'll find it as soon as you settle on one.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Hey man, I'll find it as soon as you settle on one.

this next number is in 15/8.

 

[Deport Ogie]

this next number is in 15/8.

15/8 is just 5/4 with a stutter.

 

[Gurglesons]

What would you all agree on... as, say, the most unimportant jobs?

HR

 

[Ogrezilla]

What would you all agree on... as, say, the most unimportant jobs?

I do tech service for what used to be a customer, but now owns us. So instead of hiring someone in the right state they pay my travel expenses to come down and run their production. That's got to be up there.

 

[Empoleon8771]

HR

I was going to quote this then @ you before I realized you were the one who posted it

 

[Pens1566]

I do tech service for what used to be a customer, but now owns us. So instead of hiring someone in the right state they pay my travel expenses to come down and run their production. That's got to be up there.

Can depend on locations involved. I know (pre-pandemic) it was cheaper to have my group do work and travel to DC than to have local DC rates do the work.

 

[BHD]

Lol @ "Edmundston" on the trade board. It's like a four hour drive up north in my province.

 

[Deport Ogie]

I was meandering a YouTube hole and I discovered, to my concurrent joy and dismay, that there is a full copy of the Star Wars Holiday Special. The honest to god "aired once in 1978 and never again saw light of day" Holiday Special. The "To this day George Lucas disavows knowledge of" Holiday Special. This is a grenade on which I must lay.

I'll report back and let you know if it proves more or less painful than watching the Pens' 3rd line play hockey.