Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[KingBogo]

No he isn't - you might like him to be but until he has shown anyone that he can play NHL minutes, he's below both these guys.
I have to laugh at how we as fans think we determine where a player sits on the depth chart - especially one that isn't even playing

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This is a pretty accurate read. My best guess is the organization still believes in their draft pick but he hasn’t earned anything yet. Arniel seems very open to giving him a good look which is great. But it won’t be an automatic roster spot.

 

[TS Quint]

We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose. I saw a team that couldn't keep up to the Avs speed.

In what way? How many goals were scored on screens and rebounds vs. what you are talking about? I’m not going to speak for you but you’re not being very specific.

 

[cneely]

In what way? How many goals were scored on screens and rebounds vs. what you are talking about? I’m not going to speak for you but you’re not being very specific.

Not sure what you're looking for here. A goal by goal recap?

In general, IMO, the Avs controlled the play because of their speed.

 

[Jet]

In what way? How many goals were scored on screens and rebounds vs. what you are talking about? I’m not going to speak for you but you’re not being very specific.

Yup - a high percentage of Avs goals in that series were just driving their big bodies to the net and then screening, tipping and tapping in rebounds.

The Jets couldn't break their cycle, nor could they give Helle eyes.

Yes, mobile defensemen who can make a quick play to evade or advance the puck can help in that scenario, but big D that can snuff out big forwards in a cycle and clear the front of the net is what we really needed. I think you need a mix of both to be successful.

 

[surixon]

Yup - a high percentage of Avs goals in that series were just driving their big bodies to the net and then screening, tipping and tapping in rebounds.

The Jets couldn't break their cycle, nor could they give Helle eyes.

Yes, mobile defensemen who can make a quick play to evade or advance the puck can help in that scenario, but big D that can snuff out big forwards in a cycle and clear the front of the net is what we really needed. I think you need a mix of both to be successful.

I just think the Avs are probably our worst matchup in the league. Their elite players upfront have size and all world speed and athleticism. Makes it really hard to defend them.

 

[TS Quint]

Not sure what you're looking for here. A goal by goal recap?

In general, IMO, the Avs controlled the play because of their speed.

I’m asking in what way did they use their speed? Maybe specifically Vs our defenders where Heinola is going to make a difference. Where was that speed in the regular season?

 

[Jets 31]

I just think the Avs are probably our worst matchup in the league. Their elite players upfront have size and all world speed and athleticism. Makes it really hard to defend them.

I have read fans of other teams saying the exact same thing about the Jets.I like reading other teams forums sometimes because we as Jets fans can get a little picky about the Jets because we watch them all the time.

 

[surixon]

I have read fans of other teams saying the exact same thing about the Jets.

Yup, we are a real good team that is a tough out for most everyone else.

 

[Jets 31]

Yup, we are a real good team that is a tough out for most everyone else.

You should read LA's forum, to say they aren't happy about the Dubois trade is a understatement. Mind you if that trade was reversed i would feel the same way.

 

[Buffdog]

I’m asking in what way did they use their speed? Maybe specifically Vs our defenders where Heinola is going to make a difference. Where was that speed in the regular season?

It was their pressure on the puck in the corners

A mobile d man with a good first pass who can get to the puck first, make a pass and get a controlled exit would have been huge

Instead, our d were getting to the puck under pressure, turning around, and flipping it out to the neutral zone and the Avs were counter-attacking. Most of their goals (IIRC) were either on those counter attacks, sustained pressure after them, or on the PP if we took a penalty because we got tired running around during that pressure

I think that Toby is overrated on here a bit (we DO have extra love for the little fellas on HFJets) but he was a wizard at puck retrievals and first passes. I'd be very happy if Ville even turns into a poor man's version of him

 

[Howard Chuck]

It was their pressure on the puck in the corners

A mobile d man with a good first pass who can get to the puck first, make a pass and get a controlled exit would have been huge

Instead, our d were getting to the puck under pressure, turning around, and flipping it out to the neutral zone and the Avs were counter-attacking. Most of their goals (IIRC) were either on those counter attacks, sustained pressure after them, or on the PP if we took a penalty because we got tired running around during that pressure

I think that Toby is overrated on here a bit (we DO have extra love for the little fellas on HFJets) but he was a wizard at puck retrievals and first passes. I'd be very happy if Ville even turns into a poor man's version of him

I agree with all of this. Also I remember Ville in his small sample of nhl games being very good at boxing out opposing dmen in front of our goal. That way he didn’t need to physically move them.

He’s a smart kid and hopefully he can live up to the hype. I’m rooting for him.

 

[TS Quint]

It was their pressure on the puck in the corners

A mobile d man with a good first pass who can get to the puck first, make a pass and get a controlled exit would have been huge

Instead, our d were getting to the puck under pressure, turning around, and flipping it out to the neutral zone and the Avs were counter-attacking. Most of their goals (IIRC) were either on those counter attacks, sustained pressure after them, or on the PP if we took a penalty because we got tired running around during that pressure

I think that Toby is overrated on here a bit (we DO have extra love for the little fellas on HFJets) but he was a wizard at puck retrievals and first passes. I'd be very happy if Ville even turns into a poor man's version of him

Villie is going to be significantly better in this respect, than Morrissey, DeMelo, Pionk or even Schmitt?

Are the only 2 positive +/- players, Dillon/Miller on the Jets defense really that much faster than the rest? I think their strengths are in other areas.

This all seems like we are at a starting point of what we think Heinola’s strength is and working backwards.

 

[surixon]

Villie is going to be significantly better in this respect, than Morrissey, DeMelo, Pionk or even Schmitt?

Are the only 2 positive +/- players, Dillon/Miller on the Jets defense really that much faster than the rest? I think their strengths are in other areas.

This all seems like we are at a starting point of what we think Heinola’s strength is and working backwards.

Pionk is pretty mediocre in this regard so it wouldn't surprise me if Ville is better then him after getting acclimatized. He won't touch JoMo who is by far our best dmen in this regard.

 

[Buffdog]

Villie is going to be significantly better in this respect, than Morrissey, DeMelo, Pionk or even Schmitt?

Are the only 2 positive +/- players, Dillon/Miller on the Jets defense really that much faster than the rest? I think their strengths are in other areas.

This all seems like we are at a starting point of what we think Heinola’s strength is and working backwards.

Let's give Ville a good run in rhe NHL to find out what his stregths and weaknesses really are at that level. As of right now, we're all guessing based on his body of work in the AHL and limited viewings at the NHL level

Being 16-3 gives the Jets the luxury of giving everyone a look at 3LHD leading up to the trade deadline. If nobody grabs it and runs with it (at this point in think they'd probably be looking for an upgrade on both Stan and Fleury), then they can add a guy like Petterson from Pit

 

[macmaroon]

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This is a pretty accurate read. My best guess is the organization still believes in their draft pick but he hasn’t earned anything yet. Arniel seems very open to giving him a good look which is great. But it won’t be an automatic roster spot.

Yeah, just ask Rutger McGroarty...

 

[Jet]

I just think the Avs are probably our worst matchup in the league. Their elite players upfront have size and all world speed and athleticism. Makes it really hard to defend them.

I feel like we could never stem the tide. The rest of their team fed off the way the mackinnon line was playing. They really led by example.

The Jets spent the entire series reacting to what the Avs were doing and never could establish their game

 

[Jets 31]

It was their pressure on the puck in the corners

A mobile d man with a good first pass who can get to the puck first, make a pass and get a controlled exit would have been huge

Instead, our d were getting to the puck under pressure, turning around, and flipping it out to the neutral zone and the Avs were counter-attacking. Most of their goals (IIRC) were either on those counter attacks, sustained pressure after them, or on the PP if we took a penalty because we got tired running around during that pressure

I think that Toby is overrated on here a bit (we DO have extra love for the little fellas on HFJets) but he was a wizard at puck retrievals and first passes. I'd be very happy if Ville even turns into a poor man's version of him

I agree with all of this plus lets face it Helly was not very good. Put all of that together and we didn't have a chance.

 

[raideralex99]

It was their pressure on the puck in the corners

A mobile d man with a good first pass who can get to the puck first, make a pass and get a controlled exit would have been huge

Instead, our d were getting to the puck under pressure, turning around, and flipping it out to the neutral zone and the Avs were counter-attacking. Most of their goals (IIRC) were either on those counter attacks, sustained pressure after them, or on the PP if we took a penalty because we got tired running around during that pressure

I think that Toby is overrated on here a bit (we DO have extra love for the little fellas on HFJets) but he was a wizard at puck retrievals and first passes. I'd be very happy if Ville even turns into a poor man's version of him

This formula of sending in 2 forecheckers to pressure the D will work on every team the problem is good teams can adjust also its very taxing on the forecheckers.
If you noticed a few teams have tried that approach this year its works for awhile but the Jets made adjustments ... remember the Penguin game even the Panthers game the other night they did it.
Its like putting pressure on the QB in football even Mahomes or Brady look bad when pressure is applied until they figure it out.

 

[WolfHouse]

Yup - a high percentage of Avs goals in that series were just driving their big bodies to the net and then screening, tipping and tapping in rebounds.

The Jets couldn't break their cycle, nor could they give Helle eyes.

Yes, mobile defensemen who can make a quick play to evade or advance the puck can help in that scenario, but big D that can snuff out big forwards in a cycle and clear the front of the net is what we really needed. I think you need a mix of both to be successful.

I encourage everyone to look at the avs roster last year and tell me where all these big body players are... they were same size or smaller than the jets.

The difference in that series was the forecheck and that their top line was hungrier than ours.

 

[AtomicJets]

I think they're definitely going to put Heinola in immediately. Whether he holds onto the spot over Logan Stanley, we'll have to wait and see. But I do think he is above Fleury on the depth chart.

And IMO the difference in the Jets Avs series was Nichushkin parking his ass in front of Hellebuyck all series. And he's a big boy.

 

[Bob E]

Pionk is pretty mediocre in this regard so it wouldn't surprise me if Ville is better then him after getting acclimatized. He won't touch JoMo who is by far our best dmen in this regard.

Agreed.

Morrissey and Samberg are mobile enough to get back and make a play (though Samberg has brain farts at times). DeMelo and Miller get by, and are not a liability, but it’s not a huge strength. But they can disrupt a cycle though, which helps.

Pionk and Stanley are not as mobile and tend to simply give pucks away.

Salomonsson has the skating ability and size to move pucks effectively or disrupt a cycle. Heinola should be able to get pucks and move them effectively. Paired with Miller on a 3rd pairing may work well as long as Ville isn’t overwhelmed by bigger forwards.

Dallas beat the Avs last year with a d core primarily of Heiskanen, Lindell, Harley and Tanev. All good skaters with size. Jets could use 1 more guy like that, in addition to Salomonsson.

 

[Eyeseeing]

Yup, we are a real good team that is a tough out for most everyone else.

Like the Habs right?

 

[BoneDocUK]

It was their pressure on the puck in the corners

A mobile d man with a good first pass who can get to the puck first, make a pass and get a controlled exit would have been huge

Instead, our d were getting to the puck under pressure, turning around, and flipping it out to the neutral zone and the Avs were counter-attacking. Most of their goals (IIRC) were either on those counter attacks, sustained pressure after them, or on the PP if we took a penalty because we got tired running around during that pressure

I think that Toby is overrated on here a bit (we DO have extra love for the little fellas on HFJets) but he was a wizard at puck retrievals and first passes. I'd be very happy if Ville even turns into a poor man's version of him

Good analysis. I'd also add that the Jets' defensive deployment made the Avs' tactics more effective still. Stan, who had shown well in that late-season string of games, was wedged into the lineup against a team and tactics that best exploited his weaknesses: slow feet, poor positioning, frequent panics leading to penalties -- and little of the net-clearing brawny D he isn't known for.

Samberg, who had been excellent all season with Schmidt, struggled on his weak side with a partner he clearly didn't gel with. Miller was inexplicably left out of the lineup despite his PO experience and guile...

The lack of any D but JMo (and Schmidt, when he got in) who was able to make reasonably quick retrievals and accurate first passes was a killer. The Jets could not gain or retain possession, create overlaps for quick zone exits and were often a 5-alarm fire in their own end. When pucks got out they were retrieved by the Avs and the attacks continued in waves, while the Jets forwards were hemmed into the D zone and consequently slower on the rush and forecheck, and unable to attack with the speed and in the layers needed to play either their rush or cycle game effectively.

It was a litany of errors, from deployment to tactics through failures to adjust. Speed and forechecking pressure were major factors in the series, as well as the Avs' focus on screening Helle, with their players or ours, whenever possible.

I'd say the speed and certainty of puck retrieval and zone exits has been a big part of the Jets' success this season. They get to pucks early, move them fast and then counter with speed to set up rushes or sustained cycles in the OZ. Players aren't holding onto pucks as long, and the D is linking up with trailing or rushing players way more effectively than I've seen since the glory days of 2016-18. They rarely need to clear the crease because they're so good at retrieving and moving pucks in positions of danger.

This team is a blast to watch -- and the mobility and tactical nous of this on-paper average D is a very big part of that, IMO.

If Heinola can pick up where he left off, and improve in some weaker areas as he gains NHL experience, and Salmo continues his current dev trajectory, we might have a very effective future pairing in the works.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I encourage everyone to look at the avs roster last year and tell me where all these big body players are... they were same size or smaller than the jets.

The difference in that series was the forecheck and that their top line was hungrier than ours.

Nushkin is a big guy and he was absolutely lethal against the jets.

 

[WolfHouse]

Nushkin is a big guy and he was absolutely lethal against the jets.

Not arguing that... im saying that if we deployed our big guys on a hard forecheck we would get the same results... colorado was not bigger than us