Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[sipowicz]

Funny you should compare him to Pionk, they are actually quite similar. Pionk seems to be more physical, but probably grew into that. He broke into the NHL when he was 22 after spending 48 games in the AHL where he put up 17 points (0.35 PPG) and was a -9 (I know, I hate plus / minus too, but no advanced stats for AHL).

Heinola has put up 64 points in his last 89 AHL games at roughly the same age (0.72 PPG) and was a plus 26.

No one is proclaiming anything. I think many are of the opinion that he's played well enough pre-injury to deserve a shot. He's being judged by his shortcomings at an age when a guy like Pionk was still in college.

You do know that tiny Heiny will be 24 in March right?

 

[gojetsgo]

this thread should be locked from the mere mention of makar's name

 

[Gm0ney]

This isn't directed at you, but it's funny that people will make that concession for Heinola, but not Pionk. The big difference between the two is that Pionk has a large body of offensive competence in the NHL, and Heinola does not.

Yet Heinola is already being proclaimed to be better than, well, any NHL defenseman. He should be, and I hope to hell he is, but until proves he is, he isn't.

I guess the issue is whether the offense will outweigh the defense. In Pionk's case, it's been mostly a wash at 5v5.

 

[cneely]

You do know that tiny Heiny will be 24 in March right?

Yup and would have, I believe, broken into the NHL had he not been injured last year at 22. The same year Pionk did.

Not too much to argue here but if you look. Yes indeed people are proclaiming Ville to be better than 3 of our options (Fleury, Stanley and Coghlan I'm guessing).

It's a fairly safe guess, but until it happens, that's all it is.

Of course. He hasn't done it until he's done it, but it's a fair opinion based on his body of work.

 

[cneely]

this thread should be locked from the mere mention of makar's name

Absolutely no one is comparing Heinola to Makar.

His name was brought up to demonstrate you don't have to be 6'3" to be a successful NHL defenceman.

 

[gojetsgo]

Absolutely no one is comparing Heinola to Makar.

His name was brought up to demonstrate you don't have to be 6'3" to be a successful NHL defenceman.

lol, what a great demonstration... you don't need to be 6'3, just the literal best defensemen on the planet!

 

[cneely]

lol, what a great demonstration... you don't need to be 6'3, just the literal best defensemen on the planet!

Seems to make it quite obvious that size is not a prerequisite, yes.

 

[scelaton]

Funny you should compare him to Pionk, they are actually quite similar. Pionk seems to be more physical, but probably grew into that. He broke into the NHL when he was 22 after spending 48 games in the AHL where he put up 17 points (0.35 PPG) and was a -9 (I know, I hate plus / minus too, but no advanced stats for AHL).

Heinola has put up 64 points in his last 89 AHL games at roughly the same age (0.72 PPG) and was a plus 26.

No one is proclaiming anything. I think many are of the opinion that he's played well enough pre-injury to deserve a shot. He's being judged by his shortcomings at an age when a guy like Pionk was still in college.

All true. The only things stopping Heinola at this point are health and opportunity. If he stays healthy, it's pretty clear from Arniel's comments that he will get his opportunity this season. Of course he is less proven than our trio of bottom-pair D, but is also significantly younger than all of them.

Stanley, Fleury and Miller are never going to be more than bottom pair D. What Ville has that they lack is a higher ceiling--let's describe it as Pionk, but with a better two-way game-- which he may or may not reach, but there is no reason not to give him a long stretch of games to (dis)prove it.

 

[DRW204]

So skilled players have no value unless they are the best in the league at their position?

I don't expect those 4 to maintain their pace, and I certainly think Heinola is an offensive upgrade on guys like Samberg.

In today's NHL, I'm honestly surprised at the hesitancy to add more speed and skill.



I think the loss to the Avs last year exposed the Jets lack of speed and skill.

I have a lot of time for a player like Dillon, but today's league is about skill.

No obviously not. You're the one who is mentioning them as comparisons in a multiple posts now, when he's no where close.

Defending, play without the puck matters when you aren't a ppg dmen. the average dman in the nhl is something like 6'1 190ish lb, so he does not have to be a mass monster to be good, he has to be a good overall defenseman which he has not been career to date. so, it's time to rethink the comparables you keep mentioning for heinola bc it's not makar, hughes, fox in any overall capacity.

Heinola may be a marginal upgrade over samberg in some aspects, however he's not a better overall defenseman and likely would never play ahead of him or of course Morrissey. So that leaves him as a 3rd pair d/rotational guy where he's adeptly suited & has been for years.

the Jets get some of the most offense out of their Defense group over the last 3 years, with this year possibly more contributions from the depth so far. it's ok to like and give the current players props.

 

[cneely]

No obviously not. You're the one who is mentioning them as comparisons in a multiple posts now, when he's no where close.

Defending, play without the puck matters when you aren't a ppg dmen. the average dman in the nhl is something like 6'1 190ish lb, so he does not have to be a mass monster to be good, he has to be a good overall defenseman which he has not been career to date. so, it's time to rethink the comparables you keep mentioning for heinola bc it's not makar, hughes, fox in any overall capacity.

Heinola may be a marginal upgrade over samberg in some aspects, however he's not a better overall defenseman and likely would never play ahead of him or of course Morrissey. So that leaves him as a 3rd pair d/rotational guy where he's adeptly suited & has been for years.

the Jets get some of the most offense out of their Defense group over the last 3 years, with this year possibly more contributions from the depth so far. it's ok to like and give the current players props.

Can you please point out where I have considered Fox, Makar, or Hughes comparables for Heinola?

Heinola is 23 going on 24. Samberg never made it as a full time NHL'er until he was the same age and certainly has improved since then.

 

[voyageur]

All true. The only things stopping Heinola at this point are health and opportunity. If he stays healthy, it's pretty clear from Arniel's comments that he will get his opportunity this season. Of course he is less proven than our trio of bottom-pair D, but is also significantly younger than all of them.

Stanley, Fleury and Miller are never going to be more than bottom pair D. What Ville has that they lack is a higher ceiling--let's describe it as Pionk, but with a better two-way game-- which he may or may not reach, but there is no reason not to give him a long stretch of games to (dis)prove it.

I don't think Heinola's ceiling is Pionk, because he has been protected his whole career from matchups against top 6 players, where Pionk has been thrown into that fire since day 1 as a Jet, and I think that has to do with physicality.

The puck movement aspect perhaps. That's where the Jets can use him, and I think Miller is the kind of a d-man that could insulate him.

It will be interesting to see how the Jets move with him. Certainly skating defenses this year have had some success in the West, Calgary is a good example, Colorado is starting to heat up again. I think that 2nd PP would have some more options with Heinola as the primary puck carrier, playing opposite Perfetti in the diamond. Heinola's ability to cut seams with passes probably fits well into the way the Ehlers line plays, and seeing a skater in that group that could read off them, and move the puck while attacking, could open some more opportunities up for that line that Stanley and Fleury haven't been capable of.

 

[DRW204]

Can you please point out where I have considered Fox, Makar, or Hughes comparables for Heinola?

Heinola is 23 going on 24. Samberg never made it as a full time NHL'er until he was the same age and certainly has improved since then.

you can look at it for yourself i quoted the post. ok cool. i never said heinola would never be in the nhl, i said he is unlikely to usurp any of of the current top-4. if you think he's a better overall nhl dman than samberg currently, prove it.

 

[cneely]

you can look at it for yourself i quoted the post. ok cool. i never said heinola would never be in the nhl, i said he is unlikely to usurp any of of the current top-4. if you think he's a better overall nhl dman than samberg currently, prove it.

I never compared him to any of those Dmen.

I think he still has potential to be a top 4 guy. I suppose we are soon to find out.

 

[DRW204]

The simultaneous hate of how Bowness handled young players and the love of how young players like Robertson, Hintz and Heiskenen were intergraded into the Stars line up was a personal favorite of mine.

People get excited over AHL stats. FREE NIKU! Nomsayin? Then they get excited in the preseason when very good AHL players play very good against AHL players. But in the AHL you can be very successful with a small package of high skill. In the NHL everyone has that. You need more than just a couple good tools.

brah you don't have to sell me on it. ppl on this forum are delusional when it comes to prospects. overhype box-score stats constantly, as if there's not huge margins of errors in projecting merely off points. as you mentioned, bowness almost gets 0 props for integrating those Stars players on here and shit on for not integrating youth. meanwhile - new coach comes in, not a single prospect to start the year, a vet-laden roster, & the Jets still have a great team. Chalk up another L for the HF prospect homers.

 

[TS Quint]

So skilled players have no value unless they are the best in the league at their position?

I don't expect those 4 to maintain their pace, and I certainly think Heinola is an offensive upgrade on guys like Samberg.

In today's NHL, I'm honestly surprised at the hesitancy to add more speed and skill.



I think the loss to the Avs last year exposed the Jets lack of speed and skill.

I have a lot of time for a player like Dillon, but today's league is about skill.

Dillon, the only defenseman who let Hellebuyck see the puck and had a positive +/-? If you ask a guy who has won multiple Cups like Brad Marchand he specifically says playoff hockey is for tough players. That’s why the smaller skilled players tend to disappear.

"Every time you step on the ice, someone is trying to hurt someone. That's just how it goes in the playoffs. That's part of the benefit of having a physical group. That's why you rarely see teams that are small and skilled go far. Because they get hurt," he said.

This is what the Jets are missing, especially on the back end.

 

[surixon]

I don't think Heinola's ceiling is Pionk, because he has been protected his whole career from matchups against top 6 players, where Pionk has been thrown into that fire since day 1 as a Jet, and I think that has to do with physicality.

The puck movement aspect perhaps. That's where the Jets can use him, and I think Miller is the kind of a d-man that could insulate him.

It will be interesting to see how the Jets move with him. Certainly skating defenses this year have had some success in the West, Calgary is a good example, Colorado is starting to heat up again. I think that 2nd PP would have some more options with Heinola as the primary puck carrier, playing opposite Perfetti in the diamond. Heinola's ability to cut seams with passes probably fits well into the way the Ehlers line plays, and seeing a skater in that group that could read off them, and move the puck while attacking, could open some more opportunities up for that line that Stanley and Fleury haven't been capable of.

Well said. The third pair sees a lot of ice time with the second line so having a dmen able to read and react offensively off of them and transition the puck likely helps. Granted he has to show he can be competent in his end.

 

[cneely]

Dillon, the only defenseman who let Hellebuyck see the puck and had a positive +/-? If you ask a guy who has won multiple Cups like Brad Marchand he specifically says playoff hockey is for tough players. That’s why the smaller skilled players tend to disappear.

"Every time you step on the ice, someone is trying to hurt someone. That's just how it goes in the playoffs. That's part of the benefit of having a physical group. That's why you rarely see teams that are small and skilled go far. Because they get hurt," he said.

This is what the Jets are missing, especially on the back end.

Do you think the Jets lost last year because they didn't have enough Dillons? Or did the Avs skate circles around them?

 

[Bender Duster]

For what it’s worth, I remember when everyone was concerned because Morrissey didn’t look great on the Moose but showed much better as soon as he started playing with the Jets.

Point being, just watching guys run through the motions in the AHL with 3/4 of a team that won’t make the NHL isn’t always the best way to judge what a player can do. Especially high IQ guys that require other high hockey sense guys to read plays, play systems, receive passes, etc.

 

[cneely]

The negativity is incredible to me.

You draft a guy in the first round from Finland who comes over to NA and is pretty much immediately the number one defenceman on the Jets AHL club. He hasn't shown he's quite ready at taking care of details in his own end to play in the NHL, so he basically plays 2 more years in the AHL figuring it out. At 22, he's one of the best players in training camp and looks to have earned a spot before he breaks his leg.

Starting their age 22 seasons (assuming Heinola would have broken in last year), the Jets D corp had played the following number of NHL games:

Morrissey - 83 (one full season)
Pionk - 0
Samberg - 15
Miller - 0
Demelo - 0
Stanley - 0
Fleury - 67

Were all these guys finished products at 22?

 

[Moloch]

Did some googling cause I wasn't familiar with this "Heinola" people are ranting and raving about. He doesn't look that tiny to me.

 

[voyageur]

Id love it to be Morrissey but I dont want to wear the guy out

I think in terms of speed that's the guy win loose pucks with speed anticipates plays, knows how to box out with leverage.

The start of the season the LD were flying up and down the ice, and if Heinola can bring that, I think it's a change in coaching we're seeing, to be quicker in all aspects of the game. 5 on 5, specialty teams, PP and PK.

 

[Crocket]

2 or 3 games should get him to a level where he can resume.

That's the literal plan. He's playing in the Wild game after 2 moose games

 

[Crocket]

lol, what a great demonstration... you don't need to be 6'3, just the literal best defensemen on the planet!

I would say most of the best defenseman are closer to Heinola, Morrissey, and Makar's size than Stanley's size.

The negativity is incredible to me.

You draft a guy in the first round from Finland who comes over to NA and is pretty much immediately the number one defenceman on the Jets AHL club. He hasn't shown he's quite ready at taking care of details in his own end to play in the NHL, so he basically plays 2 more years in the AHL figuring it out. At 22, he's one of the best players in training camp and looks to have earned a spot before he breaks his leg.

Starting their age 22 seasons (assuming Heinola would have broken in last year), the Jets D corp had played the following number of NHL games:

Morrissey - 83 (one full season)
Pionk - 0
Samberg - 15
Miller - 0
Demelo - 0
Stanley - 0
Fleury - 67

Were all these guys finished products at 22?

Good point, and Ville was ready years ago, but COVID, Pomo etc, prevented that.

 

[Crocket]

You do know that tiny Heiny will be 24 in March right?

So he's 23 after a traumatic injury. Made the team at 22. Most elite D men play college or AHL until 20 or 21, 22. Makar played his first NHL season at 22 (not comparing).

Heinola should've been on the team the year before the ankle injury. He dominated the AHL.

 

[Jet]

I guess the issue is whether the offense will outweigh the defense. In Pionk's case, it's been mostly a wash at 5v5.

Fair!