Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[Frank Cannon PI]

Afraid of contact. Avoids going into corners.

That's not what I meant. I meant his body language, his disposition, lacking self-confidence, etc.

 

[Adam da bomb]

That's not what I meant. I meant his body language, his disposition, lacking self-confidence.

Oh that’s called being a rookie in the nhl when you know you are on a short leash.

 

[surixon]

That's not what I meant. I meant his body language, his disposition, lacking self-confidence, etc.

Ah, well that pretty much explains most rookies. It takes time to figure things out and gain confidence. Toby was 100's of games into his career and was a well established first pairing dmen when we got him, of course he looked sure of himself.

 

[JetsFan815]

Pionk is the most expensive expendable on the back end. Heinola is everything he can be, but cheaper.

Pionk is an interesting case for me as he passes my eyetest and my eyestest tells me that the Jets are better with him in the lineup than without but his numbers haven't been good. I dunno my eyetest could be off on him but he just doesn't feel as much of a drag on the Jets as guys like Myers, Sbisa, Poolman were. Other than Morrissey there is no other dman I trust more on the Jets other than Pionk once the puck is out of the Jets blueline. I have always been in favor of moving Schmidt over Pionk but it is getting hard to deny the numbers despite what my eyetest and gut tells me.

 

[Frank Cannon PI]

Afraid of contact. Avoids going into corners.

To add, not that I don't think those aren't a byproduct (with him) beyond what I wrote.

Ah, well that pretty much explains most rookies. It takes time to figure things out and gain confidence. Toby was 100's of games into his career and was a well established first pairing dmen when we got him, of course he looked sure of himself.

Yes, but I didn't bring him up. I didn't compare Heinola to anyone.

Oh that’s called being a rookie in the nhl when you know you are on a short leash.

Yes.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Opinions, we all have them

 

[gojetsgo]

 

[Frank Cannon PI]

*opens can of worms*

Enstrom was very effective and not physical. Just smart.

Just for context, I had criticized Enstrom's play in the '18 playoffs a few weeks back, and I thought you might have been bringing that up; whether or not you were aware of my comment or not. For the record, I thought that aside from my position about Enstrom during that run, I felt that for most of his career, he was a very sound positional defender, and similarly to you I also saw him as "very effective and not physical, just smart". Oddly enough, outside of the Jets selecting Scheifele, he was the player I liked the most when they first moved to Winnipeg from Atlanta.

As far as what I was saying about Heinola being sheepish, I meant this as a personality trait; and I think that it could be a problem. I'm very okay if I wind up being wrong about that. Having said that, I love puck moving defenseman, he's young, there's plenty to like about him, despite how I might sound at times, I'm hopeful that he'll work out in the end.

I appreciate what you're saying.

 

[voyageur]

Well no, he's not going to step into that role. He needs to grow into it. That's his ceiling. He's the same mold of player, only less chaotic defensively. Pionk is not a top pairing defenseman, either. If you want to start banking salary, you start there. Schmidt and Pionk are virtually the same.

I think it's pretty early to say that Heinola isn't erratic defensively. How many minutes did he have to play against Conor Mc David in Edmonton? He sure looked overwhelmed playing against the big boys of Minnesota. Pionk regularly plays against the other teams best players, and this year I admit he's let a lot of plays get behind him but he's a guy who battles hard out there, plays with a bit of edge for a smaller d-man. There's still things that Ville has to improve on to get to his level: among them playing the puck under pressure, that first pass that's key to zone clears. Boxing out players going to the net, I think he still needs to physically mature to be able to do that effectively. On the offensive side I'm still waiting to see how he handles playing his offside, because it takes a different angle to keep plays alive on your offside, you just don't have the same options to play pucks off the boards. The advantage is the one timer, which helped him on Tuesday night.

I actually think that the guy who should get moved is Dillon because as the oldest d-man on the team mobility is something that will become an issue, maybe not until his contract is done, but it's not going to improve.

I could see a lineup that had Morrisey stay with De Melo, Heinola playing his strong side with Pionk, as an offensive pairing that skates well and moves the puck extremely well, but that would require Pionk to improve on keeping pucks in front of him. And then Stanley as the physical presence with Schmidt, while Samberg also competes in that lineup. I think that's potentially the Jets 7 on D for next year, with Capobianco still on the payroll too. It maintains that healthy competition between Heinola, Samberg and Stanley who all have room to improve. If Heinola doesn't have a good camp he goes back down to the minors, and I'd have a more physical but cheaper Dillon type in that competition.

Heinola just got his first point of the season last game, and that puts him at a scoring pace even with Capobianco (in fact lower by minutes played) and behind every other defenseman on the team. So I really don't see what some people see, one good game is not a career, all you are hoping for is good trajectory.

I still think he's here for a good part of January, to get some opportunities to keep improving.

 

[MardyBum]

Since we can't seem to have a fun time in this thread, here's some fun.

 

[CorgisPer60]

I think it's pretty early to say that Heinola isn't erratic defensively. How many minutes did he have to play against Conor Mc David in Edmonton? He sure looked overwhelmed playing against the big boys of Minnesota. Pionk regularly plays against the other teams best players, and this year I admit he's let a lot of plays get behind him but he's a guy who battles hard out there, plays with a bit of edge for a smaller d-man. There's still things that Ville has to improve on to get to his level: among them playing the puck under pressure, that first pass that's key to zone clears. Boxing out players going to the net, I think he still needs to physically mature to be able to do that effectively. On the offensive side I'm still waiting to see how he handles playing his offside, because it takes a different angle to keep plays alive on your offside, you just don't have the same options to play pucks off the boards. The advantage is the one timer, which helped him on Tuesday night.

I actually think that the guy who should get moved is Dillon because as the oldest d-man on the team mobility is something that will become an issue, maybe not until his contract is done, but it's not going to improve.

I could see a lineup that had Morrisey stay with De Melo, Heinola playing his strong side with Pionk, as an offensive pairing that skates well and moves the puck extremely well, but that would require Pionk to improve on keeping pucks in front of him. And then Stanley as the physical presence with Schmidt, while Samberg also competes in that lineup. I think that's potentially the Jets 7 on D for next year, with Capobianco still on the payroll too. It maintains that healthy competition between Heinola, Samberg and Stanley who all have room to improve. If Heinola doesn't have a good camp he goes back down to the minors, and I'd have a more physical but cheaper Dillon type in that competition.

Heinola just got his first point of the season last game, and that puts him at a scoring pace even with Capobianco (in fact lower by minutes played) and behind every other defenseman on the team. So I really don't see what some people see, one good game is not a career, all you are hoping for is good trajectory.

I still think he's here for a good part of January, to get some opportunities to keep improving.

Good thing Heinola is only 21, and not 6 years older. He needs to be playing NHL minutes to learn how to play an NHL game. It's just that simple. Give him the ball and let him run as far as he can with it. He's had more than one good game, you know. Of course you knew. You have such a good detailed criticism of him that but you can't help but notice that he's had a couple of fairly solid games in a row now.

 

[Jet]

I think it's pretty early to say that Heinola isn't erratic defensively. How many minutes did he have to play against Conor Mc David in Edmonton? He sure looked overwhelmed playing against the big boys of Minnesota. Pionk regularly plays against the other teams best players, and this year I admit he's let a lot of plays get behind him but he's a guy who battles hard out there, plays with a bit of edge for a smaller d-man. There's still things that Ville has to improve on to get to his level: among them playing the puck under pressure, that first pass that's key to zone clears. Boxing out players going to the net, I think he still needs to physically mature to be able to do that effectively. On the offensive side I'm still waiting to see how he handles playing his offside, because it takes a different angle to keep plays alive on your offside, you just don't have the same options to play pucks off the boards. The advantage is the one timer, which helped him on Tuesday night.

I actually think that the guy who should get moved is Dillon because as the oldest d-man on the team mobility is something that will become an issue, maybe not until his contract is done, but it's not going to improve.

I could see a lineup that had Morrisey stay with De Melo, Heinola playing his strong side with Pionk, as an offensive pairing that skates well and moves the puck extremely well, but that would require Pionk to improve on keeping pucks in front of him. And then Stanley as the physical presence with Schmidt, while Samberg also competes in that lineup. I think that's potentially the Jets 7 on D for next year, with Capobianco still on the payroll too. It maintains that healthy competition between Heinola, Samberg and Stanley who all have room to improve. If Heinola doesn't have a good camp he goes back down to the minors, and I'd have a more physical but cheaper Dillon type in that competition.

Heinola just got his first point of the season last game, and that puts him at a scoring pace even with Capobianco (in fact lower by minutes played) and behind every other defenseman on the team. So I really don't see what some people see, one good game is not a career, all you are hoping for is good trajectory.

I still think he's here for a good part of January, to get some opportunities to keep improving.

I think moving Dillon is a mistake. I still believe he brings a component to his game that we are short of.

His reputation alone probably helps him defensively. I play a physical style of defense, id say my game is very similar to Dillon, pretty good all round, not a ton of offense.

When i play with my regular groups, opposing forwards know I'm going to close gaps quickly and physically challenge them. It changes the way they attack and I believe it causes unforced errors.

I know it's not an apple to apples comparison, but the game does have some aspects that translate at all levels and I believe that is one of them.

Schmidt to me is the logical choice to move, as his contract roi isn't there and we have a natural replacement for his style in Heinola.

 

[voyageur]

I think moving Dillon is a mistake. I still believe he brings a component to his game that we are short of.

His reputation alone probably helps him defensively. I play a physical style of defense, id say my game is very similar to Dillon, pretty good all round, not a ton of offense.

When i play with my regular groups, opposing forwards know I'm going to close gaps quickly and physically challenge them. It changes the way they attack and I believe it causes unforced errors.

I know it's not an apple to apples comparison, but the game does have some aspects that translate at all levels and I believe that is one of them.

Schmidt to me is the logical choice to move, as his contract roi isn't there and we have a natural replacement for his style in Heinola.

I understand what you are saying.

My take on it would be that the Jets still have a plethora of LHD, moving one of them eases the logjam. Heinola moving up the lineup in Schmidt's spot, would replace the player who is likely the most overpaid for what he provides to the team, but the return on Schmidt because of his Cap Hit would be minimal. There's also still the question of what he provides to the team in terms of leadership, and having a locker room that stays kind of loose. Small details but not entirely insignificant. Then you look at depth, and maybe Simon Lundmark is ready to make the jump next year as a prospect, he's getting closer, but otherwise it's just Capobianco in a replacement role for the right side.

By removing a LD, you still have Big Stan who has the potential to be a Dillon type player. When he closes the gaps well there's a heavy impact. I'd say both Samberg and Stanley have better metrics on the PK and that's not insignificant for the roles expected on this team. Samberg is a stud on the PK, his skating and ability to position himself to block shots is a real talent that gets undervalued.

For returns I think the Jets could get a higher return on Dillon than Schmidt, I'd expect at least a 2nd round pick, and if you broke that down to value, 2 2nds for 2 years of service, and then getting a 2nd back would look like a bright trade for Chevy. I do think that the Jets would like some decent draft picks in a strong draft next year, and there's not a lot of ways to achieve that and stay competitive at the same time.

I'm a little apprehensive that Ville is being typecast as a potential top 4 RD already when he hasn't got the hard minutes to justify that trust. I'm happy with his progression, I've been hoping for success for this player all along.

With the slough of injuries right now, and still a lack of forward talent to choose from, I wonder if Bowness considers having him and Samberg both in the lineup in a 7 d setting. You want Samberg in the lineup for the PK, but there's situations where Ville can be more effective. Having him for 4 on 4 situations would be one of those. Needing offense if chasing a game would be another. Be interesting to see how the PPs get configured with Perfetti and Ehlers coming back into the lineup. The team had been running 2 d-men on each PP unit with the lack of quality forwards. My guess is that Ehlers would rejoin on the 1st unit, Perfetti, Lowry, Gagner as the 2nd, so maybe there isn't a spot, or maybe Bones would give him a spot, since Schmidt hasn't been all that productive on the 2nd unit to date. Pionk neither, but I think the coaching staff is more happy with what PIonk brings than the fanbase.

 

[DeepFrickinValue]

The risk of Capo getting claimed is pretty minimal. He hasn't played much this season and there wasn't much demand for him in FA. And remember the claiming team would also need to use a roster spot on him.

I'd keep Heinola up and rotate him and Samberg. A tougher decision would be what to do when Stanley is healthy.

Montreal will claim capo.

 

[BoneDocUK]

Ah, I don't agree with that assessment then.

No. He actually plays a pretty aggressive style.

IIRC @ICdave has noted a few times that Ville in motion can be a very physical player and that his game can stall as he becomes static. That take is one that makes sense to me from all the Moose games I've watched him play.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Just for context, I had criticized Enstrom's play in the '18 playoffs a few weeks back, and I thought you might have been bringing that up; whether or not you were aware of my comment or not. For the record, I thought that aside from my position about Enstrom during that run, I felt that for most of his career, he was a very sound positional defender, and similarly to you I also saw him as "very effective and not physical, just smart". Oddly enough, outside of the Jets selecting Scheifele, he was the player I liked the most when they first moved to Winnipeg from Atlanta.

As far as what I was saying about Heinola being sheepish, I meant this as a personality trait; and I think that it could be a problem. I'm very okay if I wind up being wrong about that. Having said that, I love puck moving defenseman, he's young, there's plenty to like about him, despite how I might sound at times, I'm hopeful that he'll work out in the end.

I appreciate what you're saying.

Mutual appreciation then! I didn't see your post in the past about Enstrom, that was coincidence. I have a really good feeling about Heinola, so he's one of my favorite 'prospects' right now. I have to be careful about pumping his tires too much until he proves himself.

 

[kanadalainen]

Since we can't seem to have a fun time in this thread, here's some fun.

Thank you @MardyBum!!

The first move by Ville reminds me of A. Zhamnov's patented tap in shot.

 

[blues10]

Looks like he is about to find himself on the outside looking in again. Not sure when he may draw back into the lineup gain after tonight and with Stan coming back.

 

[KingBogo]

Looks like he is about to find himself on the outside looking in again. Not sure when he may draw back into the lineup gain after tonight and with Stan coming back.

It’s hard to know what is best for Ville at this point. He is likely back with the Moose soon. Maybe he is part of a TD trade? I’m guessing he still holds a fair amount of value as a prospect. Likely less than the value of his draft position however. Anyways glad we didn’t trade away a veteran defensemen and just give him a spot.

 

[ps241]

It’s hard to know what is best for Ville at this point. He is likely back with the Moose soon. Maybe he is part of a TD trade? I’m guessing he still holds a fair amount of value as a prospect. Likely less than the value of his draft position however. Anyways glad we didn’t trade away a veteran defensemen and just give him a spot.

Our org might have to move out some vet D contracts to make room for raises as soon as this off season so who knows, they might be planning on using Ville full time still? Right now they have the luxury that he is still waiver exempt.

Although he is not kicking the door down like Morrissey did at that age I still think Ville may be a more cost effective (acceptable) option than some of our current high priced D vets.

That is one possible theory

 

[bustamente]

I have said in the past that I wanted Heinola to play 20 or so games to learn from mistakes and gain experience and we could see if he was ready, unfortunately it looks like his game is not ready for the NHL just yet and last might he was just overmatched and looked lost on the ice.

 

[Jet]

I think I'm ready to move on from Ville IF we get more than a rental in return. Not bashing him, I think he's going to end up as a nice NHL player but I see him as a soft, 3rd pair PP guy and I just don't know if that's worth keeping, especially with what we have now.

 

[Huffer]

Heinola had some pretty bad mistakes last night to be sure, but the whole team played like garbage as well.

Personally I think Heinola gets some unfair criticism at times. He wasn't good last night and the pitchforks will be out, but he was solid in a stretch before that and it was mainly crickets. The guy has played 34 NHL games. 34. (Samberg is also only at 50). What's the old saying, a defenseman needs to play 200 to 300 games before they solidify themselves? Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[scelaton]

Heinola had some pretty bad mistakes last night to be sure, but the whole team played like garbage as well.

Personally I think Heinola gets some unfair criticism at times. He wasn't good last night and the pitchforks will be out, but he was solid in a stretch before that and it was mainly crickets. The guy has played 34 NHL games. 34. (Samberg is also only at 50). What's the old saying, a defenseman needs to play 200 to 300 games before they solidify themselves? Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

He played terribly last night, no question. But he is the same player whose play was extolled just before he got sick.

I have no idea how he will pan out with the Jets or another team--last night certainly was a setback--but it will take a stretch of games to make a fair judgement. Nothing has changed about that.

 

[Jet]

Heinola had some pretty bad mistakes last night to be sure, but the whole team played like garbage as well.

Personally I think Heinola gets some unfair criticism at times. He wasn't good last night and the pitchforks will be out, but he was solid in a stretch before that and it was mainly crickets. The guy has played 34 NHL games. 34. (Samberg is also only at 50). What's the old saying, a defenseman needs to play 200 to 300 games before they solidify themselves? Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Here's my counter. Ville was public about his frustration that he didn't make the big club this year. Outside of a few games a couple of weeks ago he has not looked NHL caliber. If you are going to basically call out the team you had best prove yourself everytime you are on the ice.

Yes, most of the Jets were putrid last night but as a kid trying to prove himself you can't be as bad as he was last night.