Head-to-Head Domination Between Superstar Players?

[BigBadBruins7708]

Neely owned peak Roy

regular season: 18 goals in 34 games
playoffs: 19 goals in 24 games

 

[overpass]

Jeremy Roenick had Wayne Gretzky's number in real life, not just in the movies.

Roenick: 24 GP, 16 G, 16 A, 32 P, +9
Gretzky: 24 GP, 3 G. 22 A. 25 P, -11

And Sergei Fedorov couldn't stop Mario Lemieux from scoring, but he could outscore him.

Fedorov: 10 GP, 11 G, 9 A, 20 P, +6
Lemieux: 10 GP, 7 G, 9 A, 16 P, -5

 

[blogofmike]

Maybe saying ok for Lemieux is implying greatness, but it was quite literal of being "ok"

When it mattered Lemieux had 3pts in 1992 and 7 pts in 7 games in 2001 (ppg in dpe playoff being ok even for Mario)


Points but not goal I think, at least I went with this:

Gretzky's goals against Hasek, Roy, Brodeur...

The main argument against Gretzky for many detractors seems to be that Gretzky would have a difficult time scoring against the elite goalies of today. So I thought we could post some of Gretzky's goals against the best goalies of the 90s and 2000s to see if there is enough evidence against this...

forums.hfboards.com

Yes, as I said, I'd pretty clearly give the "win" to Lemieux.

As for Gretzky, his pre-Suter totals against Roy look like this:

Date	G	A	Pts	+/-	Shots
01/11/1986*​	1​	1​	2​	1​	1​
02/24/1986​	1​	1​	2​	1​	3​
10/11/1986​	2​	2​	4​	1​	2​
11/08/1986​	0​	0​	0​	-1​	3​
10/28/1987​	0​	1​	1​	-2​	3​
03/09/1988​	0​	0​	0​	-1​	1​
11/02/1989​	0​	3​	3​	0​	1​
03/15/1989​	0​	1​	1​	-2​	3​
11/11/1989​	0​	3​	3​	1​	2​
03/07/1990​	1​	1​	2​	0​	3​
11/24/1990​	0​	3​	3​	1​	2​
03/10/1991​	0​	3​	3​	0​	1​
	5​	19​	24​	0​	25​

*2 assists from the first half of the game were removed, as Roy came on in relief. Gretzky scored on his only shot in the second half of the game. I arbitrarily cut his +2 into a +1.

That's entirely in line with his scoring against the Canadiens in general.

With the Rangers, Gretzky scores 1-4-5, and is +3 in 5 games against Roy's Avs. That's not really ownership of another player, it's about what you'd expect from a guy who's roughly a 20/70/90 player.

 

[VanIslander]

Again, this way of talking do not seem to take into account who rose the Stanley Cup enough here.

1. Um... Gretzky raised it a few more times than Roy.
2. What is your point?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

1. Um... Gretzky raised it a few more times than Roy.
2. What is your point?

I think we need to go back to the thesis of this thread.

To re-iterate, this thread is not "who is the greatest player?"

 

[MadLuke]

1. Um... Gretzky raised it a few more times than Roy.
2. What is your point?

Statement was:
Gretzky was known to own Roy in big moments:

Only a single big moment ever existed between Roy and Gretzky, that was the 1993 finals, no ? Is that a fair characterization; that Gretzky owned Roy in the 1993 cup finals, considering who won the cup final 4-1 ?

Also for the first point here, they both won 4 Stanley cups, they are pretty much tie at winning cups and if it would have been true, what does it have to do with their head-to-head domination ?

 

[McPoyle]

Not sure if its domination, but Crosby has better stats than Ovi in their H2H games:

Crosby 31-59-90 in 69 GP.

Ovi 37-30-67 in 69 GP.

 

[VanIslander]

OV scored more goals but his linemates scored less.

That tracks.

 

[K Fleur]

Did you guys know that Hasek was a pretty good goalie?

 

[VanIslander]

Did you guys know that Hasek was a pretty good goalie?

Did YOU know Bourque was a pretty good defenseman?

 

[The Panther]

Jeremy Roenick had Wayne Gretzky's number in real life, not just in the movies.

Roenick: 24 GP, 16 G, 16 A, 32 P, +9
Gretzky: 24 GP, 3 G. 22 A. 25 P, -11

This one is a bit like Crosby vs. McDavid, though, in that Gretzky's' and Roenick's primes overlap by only one season, which is 1990-91. In that one season (3 games played) however, they each had only three points head-to-head.

I get that we'd expect post-prime Gretzky to still outscore Roenick a bit, so maybe it's a little surprising, but not much when one guy is almost entirely post-prime.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

This one is a bit like Crosby vs. McDavid, though, in that Gretzky's' and Roenick's primes overlap by only one season, which is 1990-91. In that one season (3 games played) however, they each had only three points head-to-head.

I get that we'd expect post-prime Gretzky to still outscore Roenick a bit, so maybe it's a little surprising, but not much when one guy is almost entirely post-prime.

I wonder if Roenick being a more knees and elbows pumping, hockey sense is for nerds, sort of star would explain why. Gretzky was better at predicting players that make the hockey sense sort of plays, but a neil sheehy tripped him up by being out of position and therefore unpredictable?

 

[JackSlater]

I wonder if Roenick being a more knees and elbows pumping, hockey sense is for nerds, sort of star would explain why. Gretzky was better at predicting players that make the hockey sense sort of plays, but a neil sheehy tripped him up by being out of position and therefore unpredictable?

It's probably that Roenick spent most of that time on Chicago, one of the strongest defensive teams in the NHL, and therefore Chelios as well.

 

[Staniowski]

Beliveau - 192/233
Howe - 192/184

Esposito - 39/58
Hull - 39/40

Malkin - 62/78
Ovechkin - 62/58

Sakic - 30/52
Jagr - 30/38

Bossy - 22/36
Lafleur - 22/22

Kucherov - 11/24
McDavid - 11/18

MacKinnon - 18/26
Kucherov - 18/15

Perreault over Lafleur by a fairly small amount.

Some of these are no surprises....you'd expect Beliveau to outscore Howe, Esposito to outscore Hull, and Malkin to outscore Ovechkin....

But, in general, these kinds of comparisons don't mean a whole lot; hockey's not an individual sport.

There are obviously reasons behind the scoring differences in each comparison, but you'd have to know a LOT more; it's just the start of a discussion.

 

[JianYang]

Yeah but Gretzky was known to own Roy in big moments:

Gretzky was always dangerous with that slapshot in that range. He had the most beautiful slapper in motion that I have seen.

For this specific play though, I still think that puck was tipped. And the way it was fluttering further convinces me.

 

[VanIslander]

Gretz had no natural shot: he admittedly trained his slapshot... he didn't have a Sakic wrister.... and he delivered... 900+ times. Yet he passed off sooo much more, often to no avail.

 

[blogofmike]

Surprisingly, 90s Scott Stevens was able to go point for point with prime Mats Sundin.

Scott Stevens vs. Mats Sundin: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Scott Stevens and Mats Sundin including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

 

[VanIslander]

Surprisingly, 90s Scott Stevens was able to go point for point with prime Mats Sundin.

Two giants of the era.

Aptly together here.

 

[MadLuke]

Surprisingly, 90s Scott Stevens was able to go point for point with prime Mats Sundin.

Scott Stevens vs. Mats Sundin: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Scott Stevens and Mats Sundin including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

Well that website I did not knew about make things quite easier

Tried a couple of could have been interesting
Sakic-Yzerman, Sundin-Forsberg, Seguin-Hall, Forsbergvs Lindros, Kopitar-Bergeron, Lidstrom-Pronger, all really well balanced, virtual tie almost. (for example in the playoff Lidstrom-Pronger in their 30 games against each other, both scored 30 pts, -1 vs +1, Forsberg vs Lindros 18 points each, 10W to 1L for Forsberg team too)

Alfredsson had the better on Koivu quite a bit.

in 54 games, 8G-26A-34 pts -16 to 18G-49A-67 pts, Koivu was much closer to Sundin in head to head in comp.

 

[overpass]

Over the decade from 82-83 to 91-92, Paul Coffey more than doubled Guy Carbonneau in points (993 to 491). But head-to-head, Carbonneau had the edge (27 GP, 26-25 in points).

Paul Coffey (1983-1992) vs. Guy Carbonneau (1983-1992): Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Paul Coffey (1983-1992) and Guy Carbonneau (1983-1992) including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

Sergei Fedorov got the better of Wayne Gretzky head to head (27 GP, 38-35 in points). Maybe not a huge surprise, considering that Fedorov only faced 90s Gretzky. But it is pretty cool that Fedorov beat both Gretzky and Lemieux head to head.

Sergei Fedorov vs Gretzky or Lemieux: 37 GP, 30 G, 28 A, 58 P, +22, 1.57 P/GP

I checked Eric Lindros vs Gretzky and Lemieux as well. And Lindros did outscore Gretzky head to head. But he got absolutely crushed by Lemieux in 10 regular season GP.

Eric Lindros - 10 GP, 4 G, 5 P, 7
Mario Lemieux - 10 GP, 14 G, 24 P, +5

Mario Lemieux vs. Eric Lindros: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Mario Lemieux and Eric Lindros including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

But Lindros got the better of him in the 1997 playoffs.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Not sure if its domination, but Crosby has better stats than Ovi in their H2H games:

Crosby 31-59-90 in 69 GP.

Ovi 37-30-67 in 69 GP.

OV scored more goals but his linemates scored less.

That tracks.

In the playoffs, it's the opposite H2H:

Ovechkin (25 GP)
15 goals (.60 GPG)
33 points (1.32 PPG)

Crosby (25 GP)
11 goals (.44 GPG)
25 points (1.00 PPG)

 

[Golden_Jet]

"HASEK robs him AGAIN!"



Earlier, during that regular season, the star goalie of Czechoslovakia (the Soviet team pre-Berlin Wall cold war) made himself known in the NHL, this 1994:

I fail to see any head to head comparison in you’re last 2 posts, just Hasek videos.

 

[carjackmalone]

79-80

The battle of the second tier stars for goal scoring title

Danny Gare 56
Charlie Simmer 56
Blaine Stoughton 56

 

[Staniowski]

Surprisingly, 90s Scott Stevens was able to go point for point with prime Mats Sundin.

Scott Stevens vs. Mats Sundin: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Scott Stevens and Mats Sundin including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

It's not even mildly surprising.

When you start to look at these comparisons, you soon realize (if you didn't know already) that it's not really a comparison of the two players you've chosen. It's partly about them, and partly about a whole bunch of other factors. The degree to which it's about the two players depends greatly from case to case.

 

[Staniowski]

Over the decade from 82-83 to 91-92, Paul Coffey more than doubled Guy Carbonneau in points (993 to 491). But head-to-head, Carbonneau had the edge (27 GP, 26-25 in points).

Paul Coffey (1983-1992) vs. Guy Carbonneau (1983-1992): Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Paul Coffey (1983-1992) and Guy Carbonneau (1983-1992) including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

Sergei Fedorov got the better of Wayne Gretzky head to head (27 GP, 38-35 in points). Maybe not a huge surprise, considering that Fedorov only faced 90s Gretzky. But it is pretty cool that Fedorov beat both Gretzky and Lemieux head to head.

Sergei Fedorov vs Gretzky or Lemieux: 37 GP, 30 G, 28 A, 58 P, +22, 1.57 P/GP

I checked Eric Lindros vs Gretzky and Lemieux as well. And Lindros did outscore Gretzky head to head. But he got absolutely crushed by Lemieux in 10 regular season GP.

Eric Lindros - 10 GP, 4 G, 5 P, 7
Mario Lemieux - 10 GP, 14 G, 24 P, +5

Mario Lemieux vs. Eric Lindros: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Mario Lemieux and Eric Lindros including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

But Lindros got the better of him in the 1997 playoffs.

Carbonneau and Fedorov are two interesting cases.

Carbonneau couldn't outscore the top offensive guys, partly because he wasn't a great scorer, and also because he usually didn't have great scorers as linemates (and other reasons too). Maybe he could sometimes outscore them at ES, but he didn't play the PP, also. But he could often limit the scoring of superstars, so the data probably shows some of that.

In the case of Fedorov, I always felt Fedorov is close to the ideal to go head-to-head against the best offensive players ever. He could do quite well against Gretzky, Lemieux, McDavid, etc. at their respective bests. Fedorov could skate with anybody, high IQ, strong talent, defensively strong. I would expect him to do well in those situations.