Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[Bouboumaster]

The real GOAT, disgusted by ya'll after reading this thread

 

[General Fanager]

Tiger Woods

 

[messi2020s]

He plays the easiest, most boring sport on the planet. Who cares if he’s any good at it? There are thousands of better athletes playing basketball, hockey, football, baseball, swimming, tennis etc. It takes very little skill to be good at soccer, which is why it’s so popular throughout the world. Your 4 year old daughter can play soccer. You 75 year old grandpa can play. They can’t play a real sport at any reasonable level.

He just rejected $1.6 billion dollars. Is there any athlete in the history of sports that was offered even 1/3 of this amount? We can ignore every metric, but it gets to a point where math and data beat opinions and subjectivity.

The only reason most people respect Gretzky in other sports is because you can't dispute data and stats. But Gretzky's only knock is the popularity of the sport he plays. Hard to have someone at the top most of the world didn't see...

 

[sansabri]

Bird > Jordan

 

[SillyRabbit]

Nobody even bothers to make an argument for anyone other than Gretzky as the GOAT of Hockey.

Whereas people compare Ronaldo and Maradona to Messi and LeBron to Jordan.

Even if Messi and Jordan come ahead in those arguments, people still think there's room to make them.

I interpreted this question as "who is more untouchable in their sport" and thus my answer is Gretzky.

 

[messi2020s]

He plays the easiest, most boring sport on the planet. Who cares if he’s any good at it? There are thousands of better athletes playing basketball, hockey, football, baseball, swimming, tennis etc. It takes very little skill to be good at soccer, which is why it’s so popular throughout the world. Your 4 year old daughter can play soccer. You 75 year old grandpa can play. They can’t play a real sport at any reasonable level.

Nobody even bothers to make an argument for anyone other than Gretzky as the GOAT of Hockey.

Whereas people compare Ronaldo and Maradona to Messi and LeBron to Jordan.

Even if Messi and Jordan come ahead in those arguments, people still think there's room to make them.

I interpreted this question as "who is more untouchable in their sport" and thus my answer is Gretzky.

That's because Messi career isn't done. Debating a GOAT in real time and GOAT after years of retirement is different. People would debate Messi vs Ronaldo when both had 5 ballon dors and no World Cup. Fast forward to 2023 and Messi will have 8 ballon dors vs 5 of Ronaldo, and is a World Cup champion.


But you have to understand that basketball and Soccer pump more talent per capita because they are more popular. So my point is if Gretzky played soccer and basketball, there would be more people that would close that gap and to compete.

 

[Albatros]

Thats not true. Messi in his peak scored 91 goals in year. Haaland has 50 something goals. If you add Haaland's goals + Mbappe goals this season it's still less than what Messi scored in 2012

Indeed Messi had a 50-goal season in Spain in 2011/12, which is impressive, but that's not quite the same level of competition as the Premier League today. Most opponents were significantly weaker and he didn't score any against the other giants Real Madrid. Even in his entire career he had 26 goals in 47 matches against Real Madrid which is good, but not mind blowing. A bit similarly he has 0 career goals (and 0 assists) against Argentina's main rivals Brazil in competitive matches.

 

[Reaser]

League Titles In Seasons where there was more than 2 (sometimes 3) teams in the league with above a 0.0% chance of winning league:

23: 6
99: 4
Messi: 0

Olympic Gold Medals (as player):
23: 2
Messi: 1
99: 0

World Cups (or equivalent) won:
99: 3
Messi: 1
23: 0 (Beneath him to even play in it though can note that in the 4 competitions that Jordan represented the USA in he never lost a game, went 30-0.)

Individual Awards:

Tough to do because you can say both Messi and 99 were gifted extra MVP's (or equivalent) while the opposite happened to 23 where he didn't win in years that he was clearly -without dispute- the best basketball player in the world. Presumably because of voter fatique, which didn't exist with Canadian voters for the Hart Trophy and doesn't exist with FIFA World Player of the Year/Ballon d'Or voters who are fine with just handing Messi another one even if there's better players on the pitch -- story over play.

That's just those three, though. Multiple basketball and soccer players in the debate while no one puts any other hockey players in that debate. Which is a point in 99's favor.

I'd say 99 was better, or at least further ahead of any other all-time greats in his sport than 23 & Messi are/were in theirs. Which is probably the fairest statement.

 

[messi2020s]

Indeed Messi had a 50-goal season in Spain in 2011/12, which is impressive, but that's not quite the same level of competition as the Premier League today. Most opponents were significantly weaker and he didn't score any against the other giants Real Madrid. Even in his entire career he had 26 goals in 47 matches against Real Madrid which is good, but not mind blowing. A bit similarly he has 0 career goals (and 0 assists) against Argentina's main rivals Brazil in competitive matches.

Haaland is in the best team in the world... They won 4 championships before he arrived lol. He's a poacher and still has fewer goals than Messi. Messi would create most of his goals from nothing, Haaland is a tap in player. Also, he doesn't create or assist like Messi, so he's 1 dimensional.

La Liga in early 2010s dominated world football. Spain won the world cup and euro early 2010s, only spanish teams would win European competitions. Messi would never play in the Premier League, no team back then would afford him nor would Barcelona sell him.

Also, he's the all-time scorer and assists against Real Madrid. He's also the player most goals ever agasint English teams lol. He has more goals against english teams than a lot of players in the Premier League.

 

[messi2020s]

League Titles In Seasons where there was more than 2 (sometimes 3) teams in the league with above a 0.0% chance of winning league:

23: 6
99: 4
Messi: 0

Olympic Gold Medals (as player):
23: 2
Messi: 1
99: 0

World Cups (or equivalent) won:
99: 3
Messi: 1
23: 0 (Beneath him to even play in it though can note that in the 4 competitions that Jordan represented the USA in he never lost a game, went 30-0.)

Individual Awards:

Tough to do because you can say both Messi and 99 were gifted extra MVP's (or equivalent) while the opposite happened to 23 where he didn't win in years that he was clearly -without dispute- the best basketball player in the world. Presumably because of voter fatique, which didn't exist with Canadian voters for the Hart Trophy and doesn't exist with FIFA World Player of the Year/Ballon d'Or voters who are fine with just handing Messi another one even if there's better players on the pitch -- story over play.

That's just those three, though. Multiple basketball and soccer players in the debate while no one puts any other hockey players in that debate. Which is a point in 99's favor.

I'd say 99 was better, or at least further ahead of any other all-time greats in his sport than 23 & Messi are/were in theirs. Which is probably the fairest statement.

Soccer players can only play 1 Olympic tournament. It's an under-23 (age) competition. So after you're 23 you can't participate.

Also, a World Cup is equivalent to like 4 NBA championships in soccer terms. And Messi won 12 league titles. A player like him would never play in a weak team, this isn't Fifa or 2K.

You're assuming those feats are easy, so how come Ronaldo has very few league titles? How come Maradona has only 4 league titles?

Just because Messi has those numbers, doesn't mean they're normal or comparable. Look at his peers in the sport and see how far ahead he is while competing with 250 million people.

While not being a stat-padder like (Lebron or Ronaldo) his goals and plays are all highlight reels, so he's doing everything with ease, that's whats most impresive

 

[Bear of Bad News]

The real GOAT, disgusted by ya'll after reading this thread

Is that Macklemore?

 

[hamzarocks]

Bird > Jordan

Holy shit thats a terrible take if serious

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

No

 

[stevo61]

I'm biased since football is my main sport. But I've been watching Messi since he started and I can confirm with 100% certainty he's the best athlete of all time.

Now was he more dominant than Jordan and Gretzky? Who has the better stats, who wins in popularity, who wins in eye test? Also for a casual which athlete is more interesting?

I think it all depends on what someone is looking at, but as a casual of NHL and NBA I can give my two cents:

Eye test: All are 10/10 , but I'd say Messi wins here (just watch any youtube video of him from 2011-2019)

Dominance: Messi and Gretzky are a tie. Jordan doesn't have the most MVPs or Final MVPs.
Gretzky has 9 MVPS and Messi will most likely win his 8th Ballon dor this year... difference?
Messi won 7 so far while playing in the same era as arguably the second-best player ever in his sport (Ronaldo). That means Messi was second in Ballon Dor votes 5x, so if Ronaldo didn't exist Messi would have 12-13 ballon dor's. In other words, if Messi wins his 8th balon dor this year, he'll have 3 more than the second (Ronaldo), which is the same difference that Gretzky has with Howe.

Popularity: Messi and Jordan are both insanely popular, but MJ made basketball bigger... But Messi has almost 500 million IG followers, would MJ have that? Don't think so.


Stats: Gretzky is amazing here, but so is Messi and Jordan. Gretzky dominance has lasted years, Jordan many have been broken, and Messi broke 50-70 year old records...

Sports popularity/difficulty: Football is by far the most popular sport, more than 250 million play it, and over 2-3 billion watch it. Hockey and Basketball are big, but nowhere near.


Longevity: Messi has been top 2 player almost every year of his career up until now. Gretzky is second and Jordan 3rd

Trophies: I'd say it's unfair to compare since NBA and NHL are a league, and in football, there are more tournaments and international tournaments with more weight than leagues. So it's a tie for all

Lastly, I think Gretzky and Jordan's legacy had a lot of time to breathe, and their legacies are set. Messi can still add to his legacy and we still don't know what the aftermath of his retirement will be. My guess is that it's not until he's done will have time to digest everything, just like we do with Jordan and Gretzky.

Other stats: Messi has an Olympic gold medal (Pele, Maradona don't), Messi has a Copa America (Pele, Maradona don't), Messi was 2x best player World Cup (only player ever). And on top of all his insane stats, he took an average Argentina to win the World Cup

I can see the bias because anytime Gretzky is clearly ahead its labelled as a tie. No major sport has seen a statistical dominance like the NHL with Gretzky. He is the owner of most of the leagues offensive stats by a fair margain, he literally could have scored 0 goals and still be the all time leader in points. Hes also the all time leader in goals and its the one once thought to be unbreakable record that we will likely be lucky enough to witness. Gretzky also is the all time playoff scoring leader. If you want to see Gretzky effect go look at Bernie Nicholls points the year before and after the trade. He had 78 points the year prior (did have a 100 point season to his name years prior) and 15 points the year after the trade

I dont think Jordan has a leg to stand on here. For Messi the biggest thing is the talent pool is much bigger so from a numbers standpoint it would harder to stand above the rest. Gretzky helped grow the NHL and is a big part of propping up a non traditional market and getting more eyes focused on the league. I think the biggest thing holding Gretzky back is the old school Canadian humbleness. If he was out there talking like Jordan did or does more people would probably acknowledge him.

The NHL has only ever had 1 other player in Lemieux that actually had a chance to challenge Gretzky, unfortunately we never got a chance to see a full healthy career

 

[Victorias]

Yes, because the level of competition in soccer is greater than that of hockey, basketball, football, and baseball combined. The bigger the talent pool, the harder it is to dominate and Messi has dominated the biggest talent pool in sports. The guy is arguably the best ever at everything on the attacking side - shooting, finishing, free kicks, passing, dribbling, vision, IQ - won everything there is to win, and set so many records it’s not even worth counting. He’s just an alien.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Is that Macklemore?

He's a dude that would beat the f*** out of both Macklemore and Messi at the same time

 

[messi2020s]

I can see the bias because anytime Gretzky is clearly ahead its labelled as a tie. No major sport has seen a statistical dominance like the NHL with Gretzky. He is the owner of most of the leagues offensive stats by a fair margain, he literally could have scored 0 goals and still be the all time leader in points. Hes also the all time leader in goals and its the one once thought to be unbreakable record that we will likely be lucky enough to witness. Gretzky also is the all time playoff scoring leader. If you want to see Gretzky effect go look at Bernie Nicholls points the year before and after the trade. He had 78 points the year prior (did have a 100 point season to his name years prior) and 15 points the year after the trade

I dont think Jordan has a leg to stand on here. For Messi the biggest thing is the talent pool is much bigger so from a numbers standpoint it would harder to stand above the rest. Gretzky helped grow the NHL and is a big part of propping up a non traditional market and getting more eyes focused on the league. I think the biggest thing holding Gretzky back is the old school Canadian humbleness. If he was out there talking like Jordan did or does more people would probably acknowledge him.

The NHL has only ever had 1 other player in Lemieux that actually had a chance to challenge Gretzky, unfortunately we never got a chance to see a full healthy career

Of course, I'm biased. But I've always seen Gretzky and Messi as one of the same. Both very similar in terms of dominance, an absurd number of individual awards but the only difference is that Ronaldo kind of makes Messi's dominance seem less than what it is.

Hence my point, If Gretzky had more competition in his era (Howe for example) his numbers wouldn't look nearly as impressive.

Instead of having 9 MVPS he would have 6 and Howe would have 3. That's still dominance but the 30% of people that think Howe would be better would take away Gretzky's unanimous dominance.

Not to take away from Gretzky but I believe back then NHL was less impressive. I think after him more talent is in the league. Messi dominated in the toughest, hardest, and most advanced era in soccer. Where most players are strong and fast, and he's a 5'5 little guy.

Also if Gretzky played now Im sure he'd still be the best, but he wouldn't dominate as much just because I assume the level of competition is higher

 

[blundluntman]

The talent pool argument is pretty convincing I can't lie. I haven't watched much soccer but from highlights and whatnot, Messi is clearly a goat level talent and his skills/talent are plain to see even to people that aren't fans of his sport. Gretzky's accolades are insurmountable but his quality of competition on a global scale isn't comparable to Messi. I'm not extremely qualified to answer since I haven't watched a single FC Barcelona game but I can see why people would have Messi at #1 in all sports. Also, it's really cool that both Gretzky and Messi have scored 50 goals in under 40 games. Maybe its a bit more impressive in Messi's case due to the level of scoring being significantly lower than the high flying 80s (especially when you consider the next closest outside of Ronaldo scored half as many goals).

 

[messi2020s]

Yes, because the level of competition in soccer is greater than that of hockey, basketball, football, and baseball combined. The bigger the talent pool, the harder it is to dominate and Messi has dominated the biggest talent pool in sports. The guy is arguably the best ever at everything on the attacking side - shooting, finishing, free kicks, passing, dribbling, vision, IQ - won everything there is to win, and set so many records it’s not even worth counting. He’s just an alien.

I don't think this statement undermines Jordan or Gretzky but I whole heartedly agree...

Take stats, world cups, goals, and assists and I'd still think Messi would be the best athlete I've seen. I wouldn't be able to back it up with data, but from the eye test and the guy's IQ, I think only Gretzky and maybe Jordan match in sports history. Tom Brady I don't count because all he does is stay in a pocket and throw a ball. (Not saying its easy, but it cant compare to actual moving sports).

 

[stevo61]

Of course, I'm biased. But I've always seen Gretzky and Messi as one of the same. Both very similar in terms of dominance, an absurd number of individual awards but the only difference is that Ronaldo kind of makes Messi's dominance seem less than what it is.

Hence my point, If Gretzky had more competition in his era (Howe for example) his numbers wouldn't look nearly as impressive.

Instead of having 9 MVPS he would have 6 and Howe would have 3. That's still dominance but the 30% of people that think Howe would be better would take away Gretzky's unanimous dominance.

Not to take away from Gretzky but I believe back then NHL was less impressive. I think after him more talent is in the league. Messi dominated in the toughest, hardest, and most advanced era in soccer. Where most players are strong and fast, and he's a 5'5 little guy.

Also if Gretzky played now Im sure he'd still be the best, but he wouldn't dominate as much just because I assume the level of competition is higher

He did have Lemieux in the league for over a decade of his career. Thats about the equivalent of Messi having Rinaldo. Would Gretzky have less Hart's if Lemieux started the same year? Yeah maybe. But Gretzky literally stepped into the league as the MVP as a teenager on a bad team. Thats impressive in any league

 

[KingPuckChoo]

everyone, before voting, pls watch The Last Dance

 

[Skolman]

The real GOAT, disgusted by ya'll after reading this thread

Bones clears

 

[Reaser]

Soccer players can only play 1 Olympic tournament. It's an under-23 (age) competition. So after you're 23 you can't participate.

This isn't true.

You're assuming those feats are easy, so how come Ronaldo has very few league titles?

It is easy if you have roughly a 100% down to at worst 50% chance of winning the league every year. That's how his club career played out.

And C. Ronaldo doesn't have "very few league titles." He also challenged himself and did it in different leading leagues. He also has more UCL titles and CWC titles. Again, both done with multiple teams.

Messi in Miami is the first time in his club career that he either isn't guaranteed the league title or doesn't have at worst a 50% chance of winning the league.

I don't hold it against him, I put him over Ronaldo fwiw, but I also don't over-inflate his league club accomplishments while at the same time ignoring the lack of competition. It's more of a wash, to me. Like if a player spends their entire career with Bayern Munich I'm not going to go crazy about how many times that player won the Bundesliga, because of course Bayern Munich won the league. In the two seasons since Messi left Barca they finished 2nd and won the league with matches to spare. Shocker.

 

[messi2020s]

This isn't true.



It is easy if you have roughly a 100% down to at worst 50% chance of winning the league every year. That's how his club career played out.

And C. Ronaldo doesn't have "very few league titles." He also challenged himself and did it in different leading leagues. He also has more UCL titles and CWC titles. Again, both done with multiple teams.

Messi in Miami is the first time in his club career that he either isn't guaranteed the league title or doesn't have at worst a 50% chance of winning the league.

I don't hold it against him, I put him over Ronaldo fwiw, but I also don't over-inflate his league club accomplishments while at the same time ignoring the lack of competition. It's more of a wash, to me. Like if a player spends their entire career with Bayern Munich I'm not going to go crazy about how many times that player won the Bundesliga, because of course Bayern Munich won the league. In the two seasons since Messi left Barca they finished 2nd and won the league with matches to spare. Shocker.

You certainly have a good argument but let me give you this:

Look at how many Champion leagues Barcelona had before Messi started his career. Also, look at how many league titles they ever won in a 15-20 year span. Also, look at how many leagues and Champions League knockouts they've been since Messi left them.

You're using a scenario where Messi is on a worse team and has to prove himself. Well, he did that with Argentina. Way worse than Portugal and most strong National teams.

Ronaldo has 1 more UCL title than Messi, but Messi could've challenged if he stayed in Europe another 2-3 years and just joined a strong European team. But I don't think he cares to stat pad for the sake of competing with Ronaldo... He's already clear by a mile by winning the World Cup and having more individual awards... 5x Playmaker of the year vs Ronaldos 0, 6 golden boots, 7 ballon dors...

Also in which conditions would Messi leave to a weaker team? Barcelona would never sell him, they went bankrupt just trying to keep Messi lol. Also, why would they? In an alternative reality, he would join other teams, but they would be just as strong as Barcelona.

MLS he's 36 (most players retire at around 32-34) and Inter Miami is in last place. They have maybe 5-6 games left, and even if they win all games I don't think they can make the playoffs. That would be for next season.

 

[EdJovanovski]

Hasn’t passed Kravtsov