Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[x Tame Impala]

1) Check my avatar

2) Tough one here because I find soccer so boring and irrelevant. Gretzky and Jordan's dominance in North America will always be more impressive to me regardless of more people around the world playing. I'll counter that argument anyway, wouldn't the fact that in order to be a NBA player you have to be unusually tall AND simultaneously incredibly athletic. There's only so many that get to have that opportunity in the first place. It'd be one thing if basketball players were just tall and lanky guys who are in decent shape playing the game, but they're at peak physical condition competing against 700 genetic freaks of nature. The rarity of being able to do this IMHO makes it more impressive.

Jordan had complete control over what is IMO the most athletic league in the world. He won everything and was clearly the best player in the league from about 1985 to 1998.

 

[messi2020s]

1) Check my avatar

2) Tough one here because I find soccer so boring and irrelevant. Gretzky and Jordan's dominance in North America will always be more impressive to me regardless of more people around the world playing. I'll counter that argument anyway, wouldn't the fact that in order to be a NBA player you have to be unusually tall AND simultaneously incredibly athletic. There's only so many that get to have that opportunity in the first place. It'd be one thing if basketball players were just tall and lanky guys who are in decent shape playing the game, but they're at peak physical condition competing against 700 genetic freaks of nature. The rarity of being able to do this IMHO makes it more impressive.

Jordan had complete control over what is IMO the most athletic league in the world. He won everything and was clearly the best player in the league from about 1985 to 1998.

Being tall is only relevant in a sport where the ball has to be put in a high basket... In soccer, Goalkeepers are tall because they need to be to reach the ball. If being tall would make people better at soccer, trust me every soccer player in a top team would be 6'10 like the goalkeepers. It's a billion dollar sport

Sports work in a natural selection way, marathon runners are skinny and sprinters are strong and muscular. But thats not for looks, it has to do with natural selection. Those NBA players most likely in soccer would have a hard time having ball coordination in comparison to a shorter guy with a low center of gravity whos more agile and quicker.

Your opinion is valid, but the world doesn't care that you think its boring. It's the most watched and played sport in the world by a mile. Also, the highest-paid athletes and most famous athletes play soccer in 2023.

NBA is the best basketball league in the world, but there's way less pressure than a World Cup. People get nervous in a high school game with 100 people watching, imagine the pressure with billions watching a final? It's not even close.

Basketball as a sport is also boring to watch, but the NBA isn't. So it has to do with the league and caliber of players. Same in soccer. The best leagues in Europe sell out, soccer has the best and most fun crowds and hottest girls attending. A World Cup game is more exciting than an NBA final. So you're comparing a sport against a league.


And I love both NBA and NHL btw, just being honest

 

[Albatros]

Haaland is in the best team in the world... They won 4 championships before he arrived lol. He's a poacher and still has fewer goals than Messi. Messi would create most of his goals from nothing, Haaland is a tap in player. Also, he doesn't create or assist like Messi, so he's 1 dimensional.

La Liga in early 2010s dominated world football. Spain won the world cup and euro early 2010s, only spanish teams would win European competitions. Messi would never play in the Premier League, no team back then would afford him nor would Barcelona sell him.

Also, he's the all-time scorer and assists against Real Madrid. He's also the player most goals ever agasint English teams lol. He has more goals against english teams than a lot of players in the Premier League.

Messi hardly ever even dropped low enough to create goals from nothing. He could run and dribble with the ball very well and take it in a higher-percent scoring position, but someone had to get him the ball up the pitch first. And that with the matching pass as he would rarely win any aerial battles. Looking at a contemporary who would create goals from nothing I look at someone like Andrea Pirlo rather than Messi.

Manchester City may be the best team in the world right now, but besides his Premier League exploits Haaland is also lapping the same-age Messi in Champions League goals, playing mostly for Salzburg and Dortmund who were far from giants. Joining Manchester City was a privilege he so earned.

La Liga in the early 2010s was the same as always. Two giants, a handful of good European teams, and the rest generally nowhere near the Premier League average. If we go by Transfermarkt's historic squad values, La Liga's 3rd placed team in 2011/12 Valencia would have been 7th in the Premier League pecking order. The same goes for the 3rd most valuable team Atlético de Madrid, also 7th. Chelsea won the Champions League that year, eliminating Barcelona along the way. Also otherwise English teams didn't lose a single match to the Spaniards. Manchester City beat Villarreal and Chelsea beat Valencia.

Messi (0.55 gpg) also has way more games against Real Madrid than anyone else in history, the second top scorer Telmo Zarra scored his 22 goals in 23 games (0.96 gpg) rather than 47. Messi's own Barcelona companion Luis Suárez may have only scored 12, but he did it in 19 games (0.63 gpg). Argentina teammate Diego Milito had seven goals in eight games (0.88 gpg), and that playing for Zaragoza. Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang for one was 1.00 gpg with seven in seven. So it's a good record, but also compiling at a laxer rate than many others.

 

[Haatley]

It's Tom Brady and it's not close.

 

[messi2020s]

Messi hardly ever even dropped low enough to create goals from nothing. He could run and dribble with the ball very well and take it in a higher-percent scoring position, but someone had to get him the ball up the pitch first. And that with the matching pass as he would rarely win any aerial battles. Looking at a contemporary who would create goals from nothing I look at someone like Andrea Pirlo rather than Messi.

Manchester City may be the best team in the world right now, but besides his Premier League exploits Haaland is also lapping the same-age Messi in Champions League goals, playing mostly for Salzburg and Dortmund who were far from giants. Joining Manchester City was a privilege he so earned.

La Liga in the early 2010s was the same as always. Two giants, a handful of good European teams, and the rest generally nowhere near the Premier League average. If we go by Transfermarkt's historic squad values, La Liga's 3rd placed team in 2011/12 Valencia would have been 7th in the Premier League pecking order. The same goes for the 3rd most valuable team Atlético de Madrid, also 7th. Chelsea won the Champions League that year, eliminating Barcelona along the way. Also otherwise English teams didn't lose a single match to the Spaniards. Manchester City beat Villarreal and Chelsea beat Valencia.

Messi (0.55 gpg) also has way more games against Real Madrid than anyone else in history, the second top scorer Telmo Zarra scored his 22 goals in 23 games (0.96 gpg) rather than 47. Messi's own Barcelona companion Luis Suárez may have only scored 12, but he did it in 19 games (0.63 gpg). Argentina teammate Diego Milito had seven goals in eight games (0.88 gpg), and that playing for Zaragoza. Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang for one was 1.00 gpg with seven in seven. So it's a good record, but also compiling at a laxer rate than many others.

I mean its a team game, he's probably the player most solo goals ever. Hes not supposed to score every goal running from the defense. But he's not fed like Halaand is. Xavi and Iniesta didnt have that many assists compared to other players in Barcelona like Dani Alves.

Messi started his career as a winger not a striker like Halaand. Wasn't until a coach experimented with Messi as a striker that he went bananas in goals.

Haaland couldn't score when it mattered in the finals. His team was there for him. With Barcelona if Messi didn't score or assist they would lose. If he didnt play they'd most likely lose. Haaland didn't play many games and they still won.

Check the UEFA Europa League, most teams that won in the 2010s were Spanish. Sevilla and Atletico.

Champions League Real Madrid won 3 years in a row, and Barcelona won a handful too. Also, all the best players in the world were in LA Liga, Messi, Ronaldo, Suares, Bale, Ramos...

The goals per game, without any context, are irrelevant. Messi played the most games against Real Madrid even including games in his 30s, of course, the goals will drop. In his first game against Real Madrid, he scored a hat-trick at age 19. So if that was his last game we would say he has the best ppg?

He has the most goals, most assists, and most victories against arguably the best Real Madrid team ever. And that doesn't include the plays he creates (He's also a playmaker) that don't show in the stats cheats. He orchestrated Barcelona's whole attack, so him not scoring in a given game isn't synonymous with him performing worse. For a selfless player like him being the second all-time scorer in the sport (possibly 1st by the time he retires) is even more impressive.

 

[norrisnick]

1) Check my avatar

2) Tough one here because I find soccer so boring and irrelevant. Gretzky and Jordan's dominance in North America will always be more impressive to me regardless of more people around the world playing. I'll counter that argument anyway, wouldn't the fact that in order to be a NBA player you have to be unusually tall AND simultaneously incredibly athletic. There's only so many that get to have that opportunity in the first place. It'd be one thing if basketball players were just tall and lanky guys who are in decent shape playing the game, but they're at peak physical condition competing against 700 genetic freaks of nature. The rarity of being able to do this IMHO makes it more impressive.

Jordan had complete control over what is IMO the most athletic league in the world. He won everything and was clearly the best player in the league from about 1985 to 1998.

Paradoxically being the best at a sport that is "easy" is more impressive than being the best at a sport that has a more significant barrier of entry.

The pond of soccer players is much bigger than that of basketball players and then even further down the pond of hockey players.

Which then brings this debate to Usain Bolt...

 

[Reaser]

Look at how many Champion leagues Barcelona had before Messi started his career.

I don't want to get too into the weeds here but the UCL was less than a decade old when Messi started his career. Barca had won and been to a handful of Finals anyway of the European Cup.

Which, it was harder to qualify for the European Cup because it was only actual league champions. Also, the Bosman Ruling roughly a decade before Messi started his pro career changed football. It consolidated talent onto just a handful of clubs throughout Europe. Then the UCL format changed to let all those clubs in for basically free (except the PL where you have to earn it, to an extent, because there's more than 4 good clubs, unlike La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1 but even PL it's easier because you don't have to win the league to qualify.)

So before mid-90s you had clubs roughly made-up of home-grown (home country at least) and the talent was spread out all over Europe, was more clubs in more leagues in Europe that could compete to be the best. After, if you joined one of the handful of clubs that soaked up all the talent, you could get near free league championships every year and be one of the handful of clubs with a chance to win the Champions League. Different eras. Messi, Ronaldo, etc., their era in Europe was easier to win trophies than it was for previous players.

You're using a scenario where Messi is on a worse team and has to prove himself. Well, he did that with Argentina. Way worse than Portugal and most strong National teams.

C'mon man.

In over 90 years ONLY 8 countries in the entire world have won the World Cup. Argentina is one of them and they won two before Messi was even born. Only 6 of those countries, in the entire world, have won the World Cup multiples times. Argentina is one of them and they had won multiple World Cups before Messi was even born.

Only 4 countries in the entire world have won 3 or more World Cups. Argentina is one of them, with 2 of those coming before Messi was born.

Only 4 countries in the entire world have been in the World Cup Final 6 or more times. Argentina is one of them, with 3 of those coming before Messi was born and a 4th just after he turned 3 years old.

Bit disingenuous to try and sell Argentina as some sisters-of-the-poor or Washington Generals equivelent or like they have the football (soccer) history of Tonga and then Messi came along and carried them to glory they'd never witnessed before. No, Messi was born in a country that wins World Cups and he helped them win another one.

Messi grew up on an Argentine NT talent era that won the U-20 World Cup 5 times in a 7 edition span. i.e. someone like Di Maria won the U-20 World Cup, too. Also won an Olympic Gold medal, too. Won Copa America, too. Won the World Cup, too. etc. (note; Argentina has won the U-20 World Cup more times than any other country in the world, for another example of their non-poor talent level.)

Argentina won World Cups before Messi. They won the Olympics before Messi (literally 4 years prior), they won the U-20 World Cup before Messi (again literally 4 years prior) and they won Copa America before Messi, 14 times. They won the CONMEBOL-UEFA Cup of Champions before Messi played for them. And they won other major/minor competitions that Messi didn't win.

Argentina is a major footballing nation. Hence, all their winning at the various levels and their success essentially since major international competitions started.

 

[messi2020s]

Paradoxically being the best at a sport that is "easy" is more impressive than being the best at a sport that has a more significant barrier of entry.

The pond of soccer players is much bigger than that of basketball players and then even further down the pond of hockey players.

Which then brings this debate to Usain Bolt...

Usain Bolt tried to become a pro soccer player but failed miserably. Not even in the Australian league he was decent. But individual sports and team sports its impossible to compare.

We can say everyone fights, everyone runs. But those are just small metrics, and in team sports these parameters are only 5% of what matters... Agility, endurance, longevity, understanding tactics, perform, for 90 min 3-4x a week. Consistency, not 2x a year but every weak. Direct competition with teammates, opposing teams... Its so different

 

[Toby91ca]

I’m with others that find soccer incredibly boring, but I recognize my bias and upbringing in Canada that led me to love hockey. I can argue why hockey is a way better sport, but doesn’t really matter. Fact is soccer is the most popular sport worldwide, but really not because it’s better than all sports. There is simply no way for the world’s population to determine best sport. The reality is not all sports are available to everyone. It is very simple to see why soccer is so popular around the world….it’s super accessible…you basically need a ball, that’s it…you can find people play it without shoes, etc. that’s not to argue it’s not a good sport (regardless of my opinion) but accessibility is a huge influence on its popularity. Looking at hockey, not only is it is very expensive, there are parts of the world where you simply wouldn’t be able to play even if you had the money to invest in all the equipment, etc

 

[messi2020s]

I don't want to get too into the weeds here but the UCL was less than a decade old when Messi started his career. Barca had won and been to a handful of Finals anyway of the European Cup.

Which, it was harder to qualify for the European Cup because it was only actual league champions. Also, the Bosman Ruling roughly a decade before Messi started his pro career changed football. It consolidated talent onto just a handful of clubs throughout Europe. Then the UCL format changed to let all those clubs in for basically free (except the PL where you have to earn it, to an extent, because there's more than 4 good clubs, unlike La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1 but even PL it's easier because you don't have to win the league to qualify.)

So before mid-90s you had clubs roughly made-up of home-grown (home country at least) and the talent was spread out all over Europe, was more clubs in more leagues in Europe that could compete to be the best. After, if you joined one of the handful of clubs that soaked up all the talent, you could get near free league championships every year and be one of the handful of clubs with a chance to win the Champions League. Different eras. Messi, Ronaldo, etc., their era in Europe was easier to win trophies than it was for previous players.



C'mon man.

In over 90 years ONLY 8 countries in the entire world have won the World Cup. Argentina is one of them and they won two before Messi was even born. Only 6 of those countries, in the entire world, have won the World Cup multiples times. Argentina is one of them and they had won multiple World Cups before Messi was even born.

Only 4 countries in the entire world have won 3 or more World Cups. Argentina is one of them, with 2 of those coming before Messi was born.

Only 4 countries in the entire world have been in the World Cup Final 6 or more times. Argentina is one of them, with 3 of those coming before Messi was born and a 4th just after he turned 3 years old.

Bit disingenuous to try and sell Argentina as some sisters-of-the-poor or Washington Generals equivelent or like they have the football (soccer) history of Tonga and then Messi came along and carried them to glory they'd never witnessed before. No, Messi was born in a country that wins World Cups and he helped them win another one.

Messi grew up on an Argentine NT that won the U-20 World Cup 5 times in a 7 edition span. i.e. some like Di Maria won the U-20 World Cup, too. Also won an Olympic Gold medal, too. Won Copa America, too. Won the World Cup, too. etc. (note; Argentina has won the U-20 World Cup more times than any other country in the world, for another example of their non-poor talent level.)

Argentina won World Cups before Messi. They won the Olympics before Messi (literally 4 years prior), they won the U-20 World Cup before Messi (again literally 4 years prior) and they won Copa America before Messi, 14 times. They won the CONMEBOL-UEFA Cup of Champions before Messi played for them. And they won other major/minor competitions that Messi didn't win.

Argentina is a major footballing nation. Hence, all their winning at the various levels and their success essentially since major international competitions started.

You're looking at historical context which doesn't always apply to the present.

35+ years to win a world cup and no Copa America since the 90s? That's a long time if you ask me.

Take Messi from this Argentina side and they're not making it out of the world cup group stages... Now does he have more pressure than other national teams because he's from Argentina? Of course, but that has nothing to do with the fact that Portugal, England, France, Brazil, Holland, etc.. were way better than this Argentina side. Uruguay won it 2x, but that was back then history doesn't always apply to the present.

Di Maria played with Messi because he is good (it's a team game). But he's never been in the best players in the world conversation or Ballon Dor podium. Hes great but let's stop pretending that teams like France and Portugal, and Spain didnt have some of the best players in the world in every position. Same with Pele's brazil

Also, Messi took the harder route, he could have played with Spain who never won a World Cup before 2010, and he would be way more successful with a National team.

 

[norrisnick]

Usain Bolt tried to become a pro soccer player but failed miserably. Not even in the Australian league he was decent. But individual sports and team sports its impossible to compare.

We can say everyone fights, everyone runs. But those are just small metrics, and in team sports these parameters are only 5% of what matters... Agility, endurance, longevity, understanding tactics, perform, for 90 min 3-4x a week. Consistency, not 2x a year but every weak. Direct competition with teammates, opposing teams... Its so different

And I'm sure Messi is complete trash at hockey.

 

[messi2020s]

I’m with others that find soccer incredibly boring, but I recognize my bias and upbringing in Canada that led me to love hockey. I can argue why hockey is a way better sport, but doesn’t really matter. Fact is soccer is the most popular sport worldwide, but really not because it’s better than all sports. There is simply no way for the world’s population to determine best sport. The reality is not all sports are available to everyone. It is very simple to see why soccer is so popular around the world….it’s super accessible…you basically need a ball, that’s it…you can find people play it without shoes, etc. that’s not to argue it’s not a good sport (regardless of my opinion) but accessibility is a huge influence on its popularity. Looking at hockey, not only is it is very expensive, there are parts of the world where you simply wouldn’t be able to play even if you had the money to invest in all the equipment, etc

I 100% agree with you. But I do think that soccer has more to offer than almost every sport minus the fighting.

You have futsal (indoor soccer), beach soccer, beach soccer volleyball, street soccer, turf, grass... You can have bicycle kicks, skills, speed, you can head the ball (jump), agility, strength, stamina, speed... Thats why it's very popular, also the strategic part (just like boxing and chess). Thats why a game can end in a tie.

But I do think soccer is boring just like basketball, hockey and Football. What makes these sports interesting are the leagues and the players and what's around it. So we should compare leagues and maybe not sports because basketball in Malaysia is probably more boring than an English Premier league soccer game.

 

[messi2020s]

And I'm sure Messi is complete trash at hockey.

Given the same conditions that Gretzky had at a young age, would be interesting to see how well Messi would do at hockey. I do think him being autistic would make it easy to pick up on anything hed be interested in

 

[BraveCanadian]

We can't even get everyone to agree who the all-time greatest is in most individual sports let alone across all of them..

 

[messi2020s]

We can't even get everyone to agree who the all-time greatest is in most individual sports let alone across all of them..

In a world poll, Messi would win. In a North American poll, Jordan would win, with Brady and Lebron close. In a Canadian Poll Gretzky would win. Also depends on the era... If this was asked 50 years ago Ali would win for sure.

 

[Reaser]

You're looking at historical context which doesn't always apply to the present.

Di Maria played with Messi because he is good (it's a team game). But he's never been in the best players in the world conversation or Ballon Dor podium. Hes great but let's stop pretending that teams like France and Portugal, and Spain had some of the best players in the world in every position.

The players Messi played with on the Senior NT during his NT career were the same players that won and dominated the U-20's 5 times in a 7 edition (held every other year) span! Messi was on one of those. The best young players moved up and made-up the NT, the players Messi played with. So you can't act like they had no other talent. Players he played with won the Olympics w/o & before him.

You're acting like Argentina had no talent during his NT career, as if Mascherano never existed, and as if he never played with Aguero. And numerous others playing for the best clubs in the world. And yes, Di Maria won one of the best players in the world at one time, World XI, EUFA Team of the Year, World Cup Dream Team, CONMEBOL team of the decade, etc.

Argentina had a ton of talent that overlapped with Messi during his international career -- that it took them so long to win Copa America for the 15th time is more of a strike against that era of players collectively than it is a plus for Messi individually. Had the talent, Messi included obviously, to win more continental, and even could have done more in the World Cup. I picked them to win 2014 before the tournament started and still think they should have won the Final.

But yes, I get that for some reason 'we' can't let Messi's accomplishments be as they are and instead have to try and prop them up to mythical levels. Such as hinting at and practically suggesting that Argentina has no talent and never won and couldn't win anything without Messi. History says otherwise, modern history that overlaps with Messi's career says otherwise. They were stacked at the U-20 and U-23 levels -hence all their winning and being the best in the world at those levels- as they essentially always are and thus were stacked at the Senior level because the same players got older!

There's only so many countries that have a realistic chance of winning the World Cup, only 8 have done it and the # who could during Messi's time was even less than that, and every one of those WC's Argentina was one of the countries who could.

As you correctly state, it's a team game, so lets not act like Messi had no help and no talent around him the last near two decades playing for his country and that he did it alone. He's from Argentina! Not Somalia. Geez. Argentina is elite at football (soccer). Even if Messi never existed that'd be a true statement.

 

[messi2020s]

The players Messi played with on the Senior NT during his NT career were the same players that won and dominated the U-20's 5 times in a 7 edition (held every other year) span! Messi was on one of those. The best young players moved up and made-up the NT, the players Messi played with. So you can't act like they had no other talent. Players he played with won the Olympics w/o & before him.

You're acting like Argentina had no talent during his NT career, as if Mascherano never existed, and as if he never played with Aguero. And numerous others playing for the best clubs in the world. And yes, Di Maria won one of the best players in the world at one time, World XI, EUFA Team of the Year, World Cup Dream Team, CONMEBOL team of the decade, etc.

Argentina had a ton of talent that overlapped with Messi during his international career -- that it took them so long to win Copa America for the 15th time is more of a strike against that era of players collectively than it is a plus for Messi individually. Had the talent, Messi included obviously, to win more continental, and even could have done more in the World Cup. I picked them to win 2014 before the tournament started and still think they should have won the Final.

But yes, I get that for some reason 'we' can't let Messi's accomplishments be as they are and instead have to try and prop them up to mythical levels. Such as hinting at and practically suggesting that Argentina has no talent and never won and couldn't win anything without Messi. History says otherwise, modern history that overlaps with Messi's career says otherwise. They were stacked at the U-20 and U-23 levels -hence all their winning and being the best in the world at those levels- as they essentially always are and thus were stacked at the Senior level because the same players got older!

There's only so many countries that have a realistic chance of winning the World Cup, only 8 have done it and the # who could during Messi's time was even less than that, and every one of those WC's Argentina was one of the countries who could.

As you correctly state, it's a team game, so lets not act like Messi had no help and no talent around him the last near two decades playing for his country and that he did it alone. He's from Argentina! Not Somalia. Geez. Argentina is elite at football (soccer). Even if Messi never existed that'd be a true statement.

Are we also going to ignore that he was the best player in every tournament he played with Argentina, with the most goals and assists? Are we going to ignore Argentina had no team chemistry and Messi was the one that made them look decent all these years?

Also, are we going to ignore that most of the good players underperformed in Argentina? Aguero and Hugiane missing in finals. Dybala not even starting... Argentina has always been a mess that depended on individual talents like Messi and Maradona. They never had better teams in a world cup. Before they had a lot of good strikers but no defense or midfield or goalkeeper until now.

Messi couldn't be the defender, or goalie even though he was the midfielder and striker, since they would pass the ball to him and expect him to do miracles every play, for the past 15 years. Messi could only take them so far, since no one stepped up until now... On top of having long and exhausting 60 goal seasons, Argentina too was dependent on him.

Now if you want to argue that Argentina hit the jackpot by creating players like Maradona and Messi sure... They made their teams better and are ultimately the difference between losing and winning a World Cup.

Put Messi in Portugal and Ronaldo in Argentina, and I think Portugal would have a world cup already with Messi. Since they have a better squad. Ronaldo has to be fed goals, and Messi orchestrates a whole team, and scores.

 

[Reaser]

Are we also going to ignore that he was the best player in every tournament he played with Argentina, with the most goals and assists?

No one has said he wasn't their best player. You were trying to make it like Argentina is some never had talent and has never won anything until Messi came along country when that isn't the case, at all.

Then went with trying to make it like they have had no other talent during Messi's era and that they were some irrelevant footballing country that wouldn't have won a match without Messi. Again, not the case.

Who scored the lone goal in the 2021 Copa America Final? Think he's a pretty good player. He scored 50% of Argentina's non-penalty goals in the '22 WC Final, too.

Youngsters like Alvarez have a bright future and just had a hell of a football-calendar year with a treble and World Cup. Don't think anyone else has ever done that, let alone anyone else from Argentina. He also led Argentina in non-penalty Goals in the '22 World Cup.

Paredes & Montiel made their penalties, too.

 

[DJN21]

Being tall is only relevant in a sport where the ball has to be put in a high basket... In soccer, Goalkeepers are tall because they need to be to reach the ball. If being tall would make people better at soccer, trust me every soccer player in a top team would be 6'10 like the goalkeepers. It's a billion dollar sport

Sports work in a natural selection way, marathon runners are skinny and sprinters are strong and muscular. But thats not for looks, it has to do with natural selection. Those NBA players most likely in soccer would have a hard time having ball coordination in comparison to a shorter guy with a low center of gravity whos more agile and quicker.

Your opinion is valid, but the world doesn't care that you think its boring. It's the most watched and played sport in the world by a mile. Also, the highest-paid athletes and most famous athletes play soccer in 2023.

NBA is the best basketball league in the world, but there's way less pressure than a World Cup. People get nervous in a high school game with 100 people watching, imagine the pressure with billions watching a final? It's not even close.

Basketball as a sport is also boring to watch, but the NBA isn't. So it has to do with the league and caliber of players. Same in soccer. The best leagues in Europe sell out, soccer has the best and most fun crowds and hottest girls attending. A World Cup game is more exciting than an NBA final. So you're comparing a sport against a league.


And I love both NBA and NHL btw, just being honest

soccer is only that popular because you can drop anything resembling a ball on the ground and run with it. Every other sport requires more gear...which is expensive. Especially hockey. Just because it's more accessible via the cheapness of it's availability worldwide provides a really interesting debate about it's popularity. Not going to argue that because it's a whole other topic really. But accessibility leads to viewership and participation and shouldn't hold weight in terms of who is the best in their sport.

Also:
Watching soccer is like watching a golfer putt in slow slow-motion on my inevitably shitty Sprectrum cable lagging.

 

[Albatros]

I mean its a team game, he's probably the player most solo goals ever. Hes not supposed to score every goal running from the defense. But he's not fed like Halaand is. Xavi and Iniesta didnt have that many assists compared to other players in Barcelona like Dani Alves.

Messi started his career as a winger not a striker like Halaand. Wasn't until a coach experimented with Messi as a striker that he went bananas in goals.

Haaland couldn't score when it mattered in the finals. His team was there for him. With Barcelona if Messi didn't score or assist they would lose. If he didnt play they'd most likely lose. Haaland didn't play many games and they still won.

Check the UEFA Europa League, most teams that won in the 2010s were Spanish. Sevilla and Atletico.

Champions League Real Madrid won 3 years in a row, and Barcelona won a handful too. Also, all the best players in the world were in LA Liga, Messi, Ronaldo, Suares, Bale, Ramos...

The goals per game, without any context, are irrelevant. Messi played the most games against Real Madrid even including games in his 30s, of course, the goals will drop. In his first game against Real Madrid, he scored a hat-trick at age 19. So if that was his last game we would say he has the best ppg?

He has the most goals, most assists, and most victories against arguably the best Real Madrid team ever. And that doesn't include the plays he creates (He's also a playmaker) that don't show in the stats cheats. He orchestrated Barcelona's whole attack, so him not scoring in a given game isn't synonymous with him performing worse. For a selfless player like him being the second all-time scorer in the sport (possibly 1st by the time he retires) is even more impressive.

Xavi once successfully completed 96 out of 96 passes against PSG in a Champions League quarterfinal which is just insane, and that wasn't even much of an outlier by him. But of course they were methodical plays and not Hail Mary attempts, assist stats don't really give enough credit to deep-lying playmakers.

Messi scored somewhat more in the middle, but the team play also started to regress noticeably that way and it was absolutely the right move by Luis Enrique to make him a winger again. Also Guardiola then went for real strikers with Lewandowski and Haaland. Haaland despite not scoring in the final by the way pretty much carried City, eliminating the Germans with his 7 goals against Red Bull and FC Bayern.

It's true that Spanish clubs have always taken the Europa League seriously and also achieved success there which is fair enough, but for the Premier League sides it's only been a tertiary competition at best and they've often sent their reserves. In 2011/12 even Birmingham City who only were mid-table in the second-tier Championship at the time rested their most important players in the Europa League.

FC Barcelona and Real Madrid always had a squad full of world-class players, but the rest of the Spanish league? Few and far between. Talking about 2011/12, Valencia's, Atlético's, and Sevilla's top guns were Roberto Soldado, Radamel Falcao, and Álvaro Negredo respectively. All subsequently went to the Premier League and all disappointed thoroughly there.

Again, one just can't deny Xavi and Iniesta the recognition of orchestrating Barcelona's game. They were the engine without which the house of cards would have fallen apart. And did fall apart.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Bones clears

The Barry Bonds of his sport ain't the GOAT

 

[FDBluth]

Pele is still the GOAT soccer player imo

 

[Reaser]

Now if you want to argue that Argentina hit the jackpot by creating players like Maradona and Messi sure... They made their teams better and are ultimately the difference between losing and winning a World Cup.

This is what I'm talking about. You try to sell Argentina as "never had or have any talent, never won anything, until Messi came along, and oh yeah, was that Maradona guy, too."

They won a freaking World Cup before and without Maradona and Messi!

3x World Cup Champions: 1 for Maradona, 1 Messi
3x World Cup Runners-up: 1 for Maradona, 1 Messi

15x (tied for most of any country) Copa America Champions: Combined 1 between Maradona (0) & Messi (1)

(Argentina has won Copa America 14 times without either Maradona or Messi but yeah, Argentina has never had any talent besides those two ...)

6x (most of any country) U-20 World Cup Champs: 1 for Maradona, 1 Messi (4 without either of them)

2x Olympic Gold Medalists: 0 for Maradona, 1 Messi (1 without either of them)

They got the silver in the 1928 Olympics which was basically the World Cup before the World Cup existed, runner-up to Uruguay.

Runners-up in the first ever World Cup in 1930, again to Uruguay,

Literally from the start Argentina has been one of the very few elite countries in the world of international football. One player didn't make them. They literally have ALWAYS had good players and a lot of them.

Just for trivia sake ...

World Cup Golden Boot (Top Goalscorers) from Argentina: Two (one of which was the first player EVER to lead a World Cup in goals scored. From Argentina, almost like they've had great players from the essential start.)

Neither of those two were Maradona or Messi. Though both of them got the Silver Boot, 2 of 4 Argentine players to do that. Yes, 6 different Argentine players have finished 1st or 2nd in goals scored in a World Cup, that's 4 players that weren't Maradona or Messi.

Crazy to discount the amount of talent they've had over the last century or so just to try and prop up Messi. Even crazier because Messi doesn't need propped up.

 

[Mirka the Turka]

Messi benefitted from stacked Barca teams as well as UEFAlona.

He wasn't ever that great. He was a total bust for PSG and required referring help to actually win a world cup.

 

[JoVel]

I can understand the Messi argument due to global nature of the sport, but from a Canadian perspective and North American perspective in general, I think people would defer to someone outside of soccer…so Canadians might lean towards Gretzky and Americans may lean to someone like Jordan. My other issue with Messi is lots of people would argue Ronaldo over him…I’m not into the sport enough to argue that, but the point is, people can argue that without being complete idiots….even if there was no question…he didn’t dominate the field like Gretzky or Jordan.

It's much easier to seperate yourself from the field in a marginal sport like hockey than a sport like soccer, which has hundreds of more players worldwide. It's not that long ago that the Canadians made up 50% of the NHL players. The competition in hockey is basically nonexistent compared to soccer.