Has Connor Bedard quietly became underrated ?

[Brookbank]

Yep, and nobody was comparing him to McDavid or Crosby.

Bedard was just as good as Mcdavid in junior and arguably better. And that is why he's being compared to Mcd and Crosby

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I don't know about other people, personally I believe you are a hater because you continue to go significantly out of your way to continue to broadcast some version of "there is no chance Bedard will be generational because his rookie year production was comparatively low." And here you are lecturing me on how you think I sound. Has it ever occurred to you that no one listens to haters?

I "go out of my way" to call out terrible takes whenever I see them. Saying Bedard is on Crosby and McDavid's level is an objectively terrible take, in the same way people were comparing Wright favorably to Matthews because of junior points.

Bedard just finished his rookie year and is 19 years old. As everyone knows, plenty of generational athletes don't dominate every step of the way -- Michael Jordan (at 21) went 3rd overall in the draft, his first couple years were nothing special. Tom Brady went #199 overall. Djokovic took forever to start beating Roger and Rafa, now with Rafa retiring Novak is going to finish with more hardware / weeks at number one than either of those guys, and also a better head to head record against both.

Your argument is dumb. I also think you're a hater, but that's not my primary point here, you're the one who brought that up.

I'm a hater because I think he'll be closer to Kane than McDavid.

Have you ever stopped to wonder if maybe all the homers in this thread are the unreasonable ones?

Bedard was just as good as Mcdavid in junior and arguably better. And that is why he's being compared to Mcd and Crosby

bUt wHaT aBoUt his JuNiOr hOcKeY sTaTs?!?

Means absolutely nothing.

 

[Crow]

Yep, and nobody was comparing him to McDavid or Crosby.

Explain how it makes logical sense to project bedard’s ceiling from his rookie year but it does not make sense to project jack Hughes ceiling from his rookie year.

 

[Brookbank]

bUt wHaT aBoUt his JuNiOr hOcKeY sTaTs?!?

Means absolutely nothing.

McDavid was considered a HOFer before he played an NHL game. Because of his junior career obviously.

 

[PainForShane]

I "go out of my way" to call out terrible takes whenever I see them. Saying Bedard is on Crosby and McDavid's level is an objectively terrible take, in the same way people were comparing Wright favorably to Matthews because of junior points.

I'm a hater because I think he'll be closer to Kane than McDavid.

Have you ever stopped to wonder if maybe all the homers in this thread are the unreasonable ones?


bUt wHaT aBoUt his JuNiOr hOcKeY sTaTs?!?

Means absolutely nothing.

No, you're a hater because you said, and I quote, "it's very clear that he (Bedard) will not be a generational NHL player" and here you are continuing to defend this objectively terrible take.

You're not fooling anyone.

 

[Mrfenn92]

Take a break fellas. Grab a beer, watch some hockey, meet someone special.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Explain how it makes logical sense to project bedard’s ceiling from his rookie year but it does not make sense to project jack Hughes ceiling from his rookie year.

We've seen countless 18 year old centers struggle to produce and then become elite offensive players. Thornton, Staal, Lecavalier, Draisaitl, Barkov etc. Anyone watching him could see the talent was there he just needed to mature physically (and better puck luck, check his oish% that year).

None of the big 4 generational forwards have had that issue.

Though frankly the points aren't even the biggest indicator for me - he just lacks the necessary elite athletic ability to create time and space for himself in today's NHL. He's a good skater, but certainly not elite. He's well developed for his age, but he's not all that strong on the puck for a guy with his dimensions. Crosby and McDavid both had massive athletic advantages over Bedard that played a huge role in their ability to dominate the league.

No, you're a hater because you said, and I quote, "it's very clear that he (Bedard) will not be a generational NHL player" and here you are continuing to defend this objectively terrible take.

You're not fooling anyone.

Am I a hater if I say it's very clear that Celebrini will not he a generational player? Or is it just hating to say that about Bedard?

McDavid was considered a HOFer before he played an NHL game. Because of his junior career obviously.

False

 

[Crow]

We've seen countless 18 year old centers struggle to produce and then become elite offensive players. Thornton, Staal, Lecavalier, Draisaitl, Barkov etc. Anyone watching him could see the talent was there he just needed to mature physically (and better puck luck, check his oish% that year).

None of the big 4 generational forwards have had that issue.

Though frankly the points aren't even the biggest indicator for me - he just lacks the necessary elite athletic ability to create time and space for himself in today's NHL. He's a good skater, but certainly not elite. He's well developed for his age, but he's not all that strong on the puck for a guy with his dimensions. Crosby and McDavid both had massive athletic advantages over Bedard that played a huge role in their ability to dominate the league.

Any chance maybe Bedard finds some more gears like all of those other players have?

Seems like a very poor argument to assert that a player must dominate the league as a rookie based on a sample size of 4 players (all while omitting one that didn’t) to be generational.

Not sure why you have spent so much time making countless posts about his rookie PPG, goals per game, point standing in the league, etc if it’s not about that and it is about his athletic ability now. Seems like moving the goalposts. The best player ever wasn’t exactly known for his athleticism. Let me guess now he is too old to count too like Howe?

I jest a bit but I find your argument to write him off very unconvincing.

 

[Brookbank]

Some people sure have selective memories.

It is arguable that the hype around Bedard leading up to the draft surpassed the McDavid hype. Did McDavids junior appearances sell out NHL arenas ? I don't remember. Maybe they did. But I do know that Bedard's games did.

But hey, not generational. He's not from Calgary. He's not playing for a Calgary jr team. But he sold out the Saddledome.



Estimated $1.5M brought into the WHL from Connor Bedard: CKM Sports Management | Globalnews.ca

 

[MuckOG]

I jest a bit but I find your argument to write him off very unconvincing.

Who's writing him off?

 

[Crow]

Who's writing him off?

Anyone saying he doesn’t have a chance to be as good as Crosby

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Any chance maybe Bedard finds some more gears like all of those other players have?

Not in my opinion no. He's definitely going to improve, I could see him hitting 120 points multiple times in his career if scoring levels remain elevated.

Seems like a very poor argument to assert that a player must dominate the league as a rookie based on a sample size of 4 players (all while omitting one that didn’t) to be generational.

Okay, you're not arguing with me though, your beef is with historical precedent.

Not sure why you have spent so much time making countless posts about his rookie PPG, goals per game, point standing in the league, etc if it’s not about that and it is about his athletic ability now. Seems like moving the goalposts.

I'm not moving goalposts, I have been consistent on this going all the way back to his junior career. The stats very clearly support my point, but even if they didn't, I'd still argue his lack of distinguishing athletic ability would hold him back from reaching 87 / 97 levels.

The best player ever wasn’t exactly known for his athleticism.

The game was so much slower back then, you didn't really need to be an elite athlete.

Let me guess now he is too old to count too like Howe?

I mean yah, the game is completely different

I jest a bit but I find your argument to write him off very unconvincing.

That's okay, it's just weird that you've seen me say he'll probably be better than Patrick Kane and interpret that as me trying to "write him off".

The Patrick Kane disrespect is ironic.

 

[MuckOG]

Anyone saying he doesn’t have a chance to be as good as Crosby

How dare someone run with the assumption that Bedard might not be a top 5 all time player!

 

[Crow]

How dare someone run with the assumption that Bedard might not be a top 5 all time player!

I mean it's so disrespectful to think it's more likely he's a top 15-20 player all time than top 5.

Well I don’t agree that Crosby is top 5. Not sure where I have him but let’s say top 10.

Anyway, there is a difference between saying:

-He might not be a top 10 player all time

-He definitely won’t be a top 10 player all time

In fact I agree with the first one, and I even go further and say he probably won’t be.

So please don’t twist what I’ve said.

 

[MuckOG]

Well I don’t agree that Crosby is top 5. Not sure where I have him but let’s say top 10.

Anyway, there is a difference between saying:

-He might not be an (arguably) top 10 player all time

-He definitely won’t be a top 10 player all time

In fact I agree with the first one, and I even go further and say he probably won’t be.

So please don’t twist what I’ve said.

Nothing is certain. But it's more likely than not that he won’t be as good as Crosby.

People forget how good Crosby was right at the start. He was so freaking strong on the puck at just 18 years old. I dont see that with Bedard. But that's more respect for Crosby than disrespect for Bedard.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Bedard is more of a shooting Patrick Kane than he is Crosby/Mcdavid. Just a step down from generational, IMO.

Agree, but I wouldn't call that underrated. Kaner has had a great career.

 

[Crow]

Nothing is certain. But it's more likely than not that he won’t be as good as Crosby.

People forget how good Crosby was right at the start. He was so freaking strong on the puck. I dont see that with Bedard. But that's more respect for Crosby than disrespect for Bedard.

No doubt Crosby is a completely different animal. Different types of players. I don’t expect Bedard to ever catch up to Crosby in strength on the puck. That doesn’t make Bedard less suited to have the better career. There are areas Bedard projects to be a better in like goal scoring.

 

[authentic]

Kane is likely retiring with 1400-1500 career points, good for top 20 all time, amongst all of his other accolades. So all this bickering is over some gap between Patrick Kane and Crosby/McDavid??? Seems like a lot of bickering over some meager difference.

Well I don’t know there is a fairly decent difference between them on an all-time list. Really what I’m saying is and I think the other poster everyone is attacking is that it wouldn’t be some horrible tragedy if he only ended up at the level of Kane or Kucherov, and infact that would be a wildly successful career that is not a guarantee either. He seems confident in his opinions, as do most others in this thread, only time will tell who is right. The crazier part to me is how he is being attacked for it when to date his opinions about Bedard have been correct.

Yep, and nobody was comparing him to McDavid or Crosby.


90 points did not seem likely. And even if it was, that still would have put him way behind Sid in terms of relative scoring.

In a full healthy season with a better cast I had him pegged for 85-90 points and 40 goals. I can even see now that I overrated how good he would be right out the gate, even if he had Hall and a healthy team to work with most of the season. I think there are a lot of people who don’t realize that the gap between them so far is mostly on the individuals here and are pinning way too much of it on the teams around them.

 

[authentic]

Well I don’t agree that Crosby is top 5. Not sure where I have him but let’s say top 10.

Anyway, there is a difference between saying:

-He might not be a top 10 player all time

-He definitely won’t be a top 10 player all time

In fact I agree with the first one, and I even go further and say he probably won’t be.

So please don’t twist what I’ve said.

The more I think of it Crosby, McDavid and Jagr have to be 5, 6 and 7 in some order, McDavid will be 5 likely when all is said and done. Those are the most dominant and complete offensive talents that have existed outside of the big 4 of all-time. Bedard reaching this level is an absurdly tall order.

 

[nbwingsfan]

And with Palffy and Recchi gone, Crosby scored 33 points in his final 19 games of the season, a 142 point pace with Andy Hilbert and Colby Armstrong as his wingers. In those 19 games, he built up a 13 point lead on the next highest scoring Penguin, which prorates to 56 points over an 82 game season.


He only played 8 less games than Kurashev, and only 80 less minutes. He was never going to come close to the type of separation we saw from Sid. Give him those games/minutes back and he maybe scores 13-15 more points than Kurashev in 75 games.

Crosby created that same gap in 19 games.

What's your excuse for him scoring less goals and goals per 60 than Jason Dickinson? I noticed you completely ignored that. I'd love to hear your excuses for his WC play as well, but I'm sure that'll be ignored

It's funny watching people like you simultaneously worship at the altar of junior hockey stats while attempting to discredit actual NHL performance.

Because Bedard was the single only offensive threat on that team? Lol

Pay extra attention to him, because no one else on the ice is going to score. His line mates had like 25 points a piece last season.

Who the hell takes the WC seriously?

 

[authentic]

Nothing is certain. But it's more likely than not that he won’t be as good as Crosby.

People forget how good Crosby was right at the start. He was so freaking strong on the puck at just 18 years old. I dont see that with Bedard. But that's more respect for Crosby than disrespect for Bedard.

In the second half of Crosby’s rookie season he was keeping pace with Thornton and Jagr in scoring then stood out in a big way during his 2nd season. He visibly dominated games at a level no teenager ever had besides Gretzky. He looked like something else the NHL hadn’t seen before.

 

[PainForShane]

We've seen countless 18 year old centers struggle to produce and then become elite offensive players. Thornton, Staal, Lecavalier, Draisaitl, Barkov etc. Anyone watching him could see the talent was there he just needed to mature physically (and better puck luck, check his oish% that year).

None of the big 4 generational forwards have had that issue.

Though frankly the points aren't even the biggest indicator for me - he just lacks the necessary elite athletic ability to create time and space for himself in today's NHL. He's a good skater, but certainly not elite. He's well developed for his age, but he's not all that strong on the puck for a guy with his dimensions. Crosby and McDavid both had massive athletic advantages over Bedard that played a huge role in their ability to dominate the league.


Am I a hater if I say it's very clear that Celebrini will not he a generational player? Or is it just hating to say that about Bedard?


False

Ha that's funny. No, you are not necessarily a hater if you say "it's very clear Celebrini will not be a generational player."

However, some people (myself included) would think you are a hater if you come up with an objectively stupid argument that you continue to go out of your way to defend while also trying to distract the conversation with some ridiculous strawman. As an example, if someone were to spend multiple posts arguing something like "Bedard will never be generational, the proof is his relatively mediocre rookie year" while ignoring other generational superstars like Michael Jordan, Novak Djokovic, Tom Brady, Gordie etc, none of whom were elite at 19 years old (and all of whom specifically been brought up previously in this thread), then I personally would assume that person is a hater, because they're ignoring the conversation and hating on some random young player. Especially if that person had spent years of his / her life doing something similar regarding Lafreniere. That is just my own opinion.

Also, you are the one who initially mentioned people think you are a hater. I have no idea why you decided to bring that up.

***

It bears mentioning that none of the points above have anything to do with the random hypothethical Celebrini question which you just brought up. Seems to me to be a clear attempt to distract.

Imo, might be worth stopping rather than continuing to dig yourself deeper and deeper. Like I said in a previous post, you're not fooling anyone.

 

[Crow]

The more I think of it Crosby, McDavid and Jagr have to be 5, 6 and 7 in some order, McDavid will be 5 likely when all is said and done. Those are the most dominant and complete offensive talents that have existed outside of the big 4 of all-time. Bedard reaching this level is an absurdly tall order.

Depends how you view older players like Hull, Beliveau. Defensemen like Bourque and Harvey. Also where do goalies like Hasek and Roy belong? I’m not so sure.

Personally, even though I think he was mostly a trash human being from many accounts, and I am not a fan of him on a personal level having seen him at bars groping waitresses asses like a dirty old pig, Bobby Hull is the number 5 hockey player of all time. His overall hockey career is ahead of crosby’s quite easily to me. I used to have Hasek #5 but I think I underrated the WHA, and what he had left had he remained in the NHL to a greater extent than I should have. So Hasek would be #6 in my book.

Next I think I’d put Beliveau ahead of Roy then finally Crosby. After Crosby I think I’d put bourque to round out my top ten. McDavid likely next and perhaps Harvey then jagr.

It’s hard to place all of these players and I change my mind all the time.

Tl/dr I agree McDavid is on pace to be #5 all time and Crosby is top 10.

 

[Brookbank]

The same process that pegged McDavid as generational before he played an NHL game , also pegged Bedard as generational. He's also an exceptional status player , just as McDavid was. He already has a generational body of work.

Arenas were selling out to see Bedard because he was generational and nothing less.

"Let's see what he does" doesn't even really cut it. Lindros was generational but his career was derailed by injuries. And he still made the hall of fame. He wasn't pegged down a few notches because of that. Everyone knew what he was capable of.

Does anyone try and make the case that Lindros wasn't actually that good ?

 

[authentic]

Depends how you view older players like Hull, Beliveau. Defensemen like Bourque and Harvey. Also where do goalies like Hasek and Roy belong? I’m not so sure.

Personally, even though I think he was mostly a trash human being from many accounts, and I am not a fan of him on a personal level having seen him at bars groping waitresses asses like a dirty old pig, Bobby Hull is the number 5 hockey player of all time. His overall hockey career is ahead of crosby’s quite easily to me. I used to have Hasek #5 but I think I underrated the WHA, and what he had left had he remained in the NHL to a greater extent than I should have. So Hasek would be #6 in my book.

Next I think I’d put Beliveau ahead of Roy then finally Crosby. After Crosby I think I’d put bourque to round out my top ten. McDavid likely next and perhaps Harvey then jagr.

It’s hard to place all of these players and I change my mind all the time.

Tl/dr I agree McDavid is on pace to be #5 all time and Crosby is top 10.

Yeah those are all pretty defensible opinions. I place a lot of emphasis personally on dominance in a more modern league with more skill and a greater talent pool but I can see how someone would have Hull 5 or even Hasek for sure. Pretty sure I have the exact same top 12 as you only in different order. Actually, come to think of it Ovechkin should fit in there somewhere but not sure who I’d take out. You could say Hull and Ovechkin at their best were on that level and are also the best goal scorers of all-time besides Lemieux.