Joey Bones
***** 2k16
Hmm, that makes sense. Again I think it would be tough to coordinate, but there's an incoming logjam that they'll need to attend to if Shesterkin truly does come over. We'll see. Both would be waiver exempt next year!!
Prospect Info: Hartford Wolf Pack (AHL)/Maine Mariners (ECHL) Thread *Part X*
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Hmm, that makes sense. Again I think it would be tough to coordinate, but there's an incoming logjam that they'll need to attend to if Shesterkin truly does come over. We'll see. Both would be waiver exempt next year!!
barring injury do you really think lundqvist is playing less than 40 games? i just don't see it
NYR Viper
Registered User
The way to do it is to play Hank 50 games and Igor and Alex 16 each in the NHL while splitting the majority of the starts in the AHL. So:
Georgiev
16 NHL games
35 AHL games
Shestyorkin
16 NHL games
35 AHL games
Hank
50 NHL games
Georgiev
16 NHL games
35 AHL games
Shestyorkin
16 NHL games
35 AHL games
Hank
50 NHL games
thats assuming that you can convince igor to play in the ahl for a fraction of the money he makes in the khl
egelband
Registered User
- Sep 6, 2008
- 16,203
- 15,060
I wonder how cold-blooded Gorton will be. Trading Kreider would be pretty cutthroat. I just hope they don't "replace" Kreider with Panarin.
I meant more in a ”send him down here and there for a 3in3 where he plays 2 games but Keep him in the NHL most of the time”, i doubt he would disapprove of that.
He'll get a max ELC with $90k signing bonuses. His NHL base is then $830K. He spends a third of the season or more in the NHL. He then easily clears $300K (pre-tax). I think someone reported his salary at home was $300k or in that range, but he'd also be due a raise. My point though is he'd make good money under most likely scenarios. He's not going to be making just the AHL base of $70k. If he wants to make it here, he may have to deal with the first year of an ELC. That's the unfortunate reality.
The other part is, even if he has an EAC and you let him play somewhere else next year, I don't know if that really addresses anything.
1. We will still have Lundqvist and likely Georgiev for the 20-21 season.
2. We still haven't seen Shesterkin play meaningful games in North America.
So I don't know how anything is better. We may be looking to compete in 20-21 and I don't know if they'll want to bank on Shesterkin getting a lot of games having never seen him play here. He may have to do an AHL stint regardless.
Or, maybe not. Maybe they just put their faith in him and make him the guy without having played here. Who knows. I just feel that an AHL stint is probably an inevitability, even if it's just down for a few, back up, like Tobbe said. He could still come out ahead financially in that scenario as well.
1. We will still have Lundqvist and likely Georgiev for the 20-21 season.
2. We still haven't seen Shesterkin play meaningful games in North America.
So I don't know how anything is better. We may be looking to compete in 20-21 and I don't know if they'll want to bank on Shesterkin getting a lot of games having never seen him play here. He may have to do an AHL stint regardless.
Or, maybe not. Maybe they just put their faith in him and make him the guy without having played here. Who knows. I just feel that an AHL stint is probably an inevitability, even if it's just down for a few, back up, like Tobbe said. He could still come out ahead financially in that scenario as well.
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
And like I was saying earlier, getting through the ELC is definitely the course to unlock the more lucrative contracts down the road.
Let me try to clarify something I said yesterday.
Sometimes, players don't develop in the way we hope they would (putting injuries aside).
Sometimes, it is because they just don't have the skill to become NHL players. I'm thinking of a player like Ty Ronning. He was a low draft choice for a reason but we were all hoping that, with his bloodlines, success in juniors, and work ethic, he could somehow turn into his father. That doesn't appear to be in the cards. He has not been successful at the AHL level and ended up in the ECHL where he has had some success, but not overwhelming success. Obviously, you shouldn't give up on a player after one year, but the skills that he lacks, in today's speed-dominated NHL, are hard to come by no matter how hard he works.
Sean Day came with a lot of baggage, the reason why he went from Exceptional Player Status to a 3rd round pick. The story of his family's problems have been well documented. There were also questions about his innate hockey IQ and decision making process. Drafting someone with his skating skills was a good gamble and he seemed to dedicate himself to becoming a successful pro and perhaps an NHLer. Again, it hasn't happened. Perhaps there are some skills like hockey IQ that cannot be overcome by dedication, hard work or experience. Is he unable, no matter how hard he works, limited by some fatal flaws? Again, to soon to give up on him, but it doesn't look good.
Ryan Gropp was a controversial 2nd round pick with the Rangers accessing his potential higher than others. He has been a disappointment and has not developed, ending up like Ronning, in the ECHL, never a good sign for future NHL success. Not to say that players don't go from the ECHL to the NHL, but it is relatively uncommon. Why hasn't he developed? I don't know. Is it that he doesn't have the skills and never had them in the first place? Is that that he has not been willing or able to do what the coaching staff wants? Is the onus on him or on his lack of ability? I don't know. When I saw him play last weekend in Charlotte, he looked better than I remembered him in the past. A limited sample, for sure. He looked like an NHL player, he carried himself like an NHL player, but nothing seemed to happen. Again, only one game, but consistent with what I've read of him. He could still have an NHL career, but the clock is ticking.
Sometimes, its maturity. Over the last few years we've seen many players fall victim to the tough love of AV and Quinn: JT Miller, Kreider, Vesey, Chytil, Andersson, Buch, DeAngelo, et al. Some have responded, are responding, some still are struggling.
If they respond and become what we want, what they want, is it because of the coaching or because of some inner spark and drive? If they don't, and never become all they can be, is it the fault of AV and DC or is the onus on them?
Even with really good players: is "really good" their floor, which is fine, or is there more but they are unwilling or unable to attain a higher level? Is it the coaches who are unable to push them? Perhaps. Or is it on the player?
Hockey players are not one-dimensional. They are like all of us...human in every aspect except for incredible athletic ability. How many of us have reached our "full potential," whatever is meant by that? How many of us were held back by a lack of skill and ability? How many of us were held back by a lack of maturity, drive, "motor," work ethic, etc? How many of us now look back and say we would have done things differently?
In the end, what I am trying to express is that player development is a crap shoot, especially when drafting 18 year olds. But at some point, a players career depends, not on coaching, but on them. They might be dedicated, work hard, recognize their limitations and work on them, and still fail, especially in a talent meritocracy like the NHL. Others might fail, never becoming what they hoped, either not reaching the NHL at all, or becoming the high end players they thought they would be on the bright, optimistic day they were drafted, because they never did what it would take, to do so. Others become overachievers.
This is what makes sports so fascinating: the individual arcs of players careers that we, as fans who after games go back to our own lives, can only observe, analyze, and criticize, or not. Every team is like a laboratory of humanity, as is every work place. We are the amateur scientists observing the fish bowl from above. We want the players to do well. We want to win too. But, it must be hard to be a professional athlete, knowing your financial success depends on your performance in the limited window you have, where younger players are always on the way, where management is ready to dump you in an instant. The pressure on athletes to perform must be immense, something we lose sight of because to us, they play kids games that we would die to play.
Who knows what goes on in individual players heads? Who knows whether they get up in the morning as say "practice, again," or look at it as a time to work on things and improve? Why do players seem locked in for stretches of games but then disappear? Why do players go in and out of the "Quinn bin"? Why?
I don't know, but it is endlessly fascinating. Frustrating, but fascinating. I have no answers. I don't think anyone does.
Sometimes, players don't develop in the way we hope they would (putting injuries aside).
Sometimes, it is because they just don't have the skill to become NHL players. I'm thinking of a player like Ty Ronning. He was a low draft choice for a reason but we were all hoping that, with his bloodlines, success in juniors, and work ethic, he could somehow turn into his father. That doesn't appear to be in the cards. He has not been successful at the AHL level and ended up in the ECHL where he has had some success, but not overwhelming success. Obviously, you shouldn't give up on a player after one year, but the skills that he lacks, in today's speed-dominated NHL, are hard to come by no matter how hard he works.
Sean Day came with a lot of baggage, the reason why he went from Exceptional Player Status to a 3rd round pick. The story of his family's problems have been well documented. There were also questions about his innate hockey IQ and decision making process. Drafting someone with his skating skills was a good gamble and he seemed to dedicate himself to becoming a successful pro and perhaps an NHLer. Again, it hasn't happened. Perhaps there are some skills like hockey IQ that cannot be overcome by dedication, hard work or experience. Is he unable, no matter how hard he works, limited by some fatal flaws? Again, to soon to give up on him, but it doesn't look good.
Ryan Gropp was a controversial 2nd round pick with the Rangers accessing his potential higher than others. He has been a disappointment and has not developed, ending up like Ronning, in the ECHL, never a good sign for future NHL success. Not to say that players don't go from the ECHL to the NHL, but it is relatively uncommon. Why hasn't he developed? I don't know. Is it that he doesn't have the skills and never had them in the first place? Is that that he has not been willing or able to do what the coaching staff wants? Is the onus on him or on his lack of ability? I don't know. When I saw him play last weekend in Charlotte, he looked better than I remembered him in the past. A limited sample, for sure. He looked like an NHL player, he carried himself like an NHL player, but nothing seemed to happen. Again, only one game, but consistent with what I've read of him. He could still have an NHL career, but the clock is ticking.
Sometimes, its maturity. Over the last few years we've seen many players fall victim to the tough love of AV and Quinn: JT Miller, Kreider, Vesey, Chytil, Andersson, Buch, DeAngelo, et al. Some have responded, are responding, some still are struggling.
If they respond and become what we want, what they want, is it because of the coaching or because of some inner spark and drive? If they don't, and never become all they can be, is it the fault of AV and DC or is the onus on them?
Even with really good players: is "really good" their floor, which is fine, or is there more but they are unwilling or unable to attain a higher level? Is it the coaches who are unable to push them? Perhaps. Or is it on the player?
Hockey players are not one-dimensional. They are like all of us...human in every aspect except for incredible athletic ability. How many of us have reached our "full potential," whatever is meant by that? How many of us were held back by a lack of skill and ability? How many of us were held back by a lack of maturity, drive, "motor," work ethic, etc? How many of us now look back and say we would have done things differently?
In the end, what I am trying to express is that player development is a crap shoot, especially when drafting 18 year olds. But at some point, a players career depends, not on coaching, but on them. They might be dedicated, work hard, recognize their limitations and work on them, and still fail, especially in a talent meritocracy like the NHL. Others might fail, never becoming what they hoped, either not reaching the NHL at all, or becoming the high end players they thought they would be on the bright, optimistic day they were drafted, because they never did what it would take, to do so. Others become overachievers.
This is what makes sports so fascinating: the individual arcs of players careers that we, as fans who after games go back to our own lives, can only observe, analyze, and criticize, or not. Every team is like a laboratory of humanity, as is every work place. We are the amateur scientists observing the fish bowl from above. We want the players to do well. We want to win too. But, it must be hard to be a professional athlete, knowing your financial success depends on your performance in the limited window you have, where younger players are always on the way, where management is ready to dump you in an instant. The pressure on athletes to perform must be immense, something we lose sight of because to us, they play kids games that we would die to play.
Who knows what goes on in individual players heads? Who knows whether they get up in the morning as say "practice, again," or look at it as a time to work on things and improve? Why do players seem locked in for stretches of games but then disappear? Why do players go in and out of the "Quinn bin"? Why?
I don't know, but it is endlessly fascinating. Frustrating, but fascinating. I have no answers. I don't think anyone does.
Sean Day has shown big improvements this season - his first pro season - and he’s playing like a pretty good AHL D-man over the last month or two.
- Sep 1, 2010
- 10,040
- 8,009
well said, thanks
but it does seem to me that, over the last ~4-6 years,
ECHL time, in pro year 1 or 2, is no longer a strong indicator of a prospect's prospects (wordplay intended),
especially for young-ish prospects 22 and younger
i do wish the coaching and development were better and more consistent in the lower minors, but unlike baseball, the NHL teams rarely (do any?) own or manage the AA affiliate ...
Vasilevskiy played 25 games in Syracuse his first pro NA season. The idea of Shesterkin spending some time in Hartford doesn't seem so outlandish to me.
Good report and good news. But how do we know if this is true? Or if you just are making things up? Have you watched him? Or was it just the box score? Or was it in fact some other guy and you attributed his play to Day?
It’s impossible to know with you.
Now you're just being silly because you got your feelings hurt or something, shut down your browser and go calm down Ola.
This is crazy, I was told that hes only still around because of Organizational bias because he's not better than Zboro.
eco's bones
Registered User
I don't think we should guarantee any young player who has not played at the NHL level already a job. It certainly wouldn't be fair to Georgiev to send him to Hartford if he outplayed Shestyorkin in next year's training camp which very well could happen. The way that Shestyorkin gets a job should be by bettering his competition. Henrik will be one of our goalies next year and barring a trade one of Georgiev or Shestyorkin should be the other. But it should be the one that shows best in camp.
As well it's not like Shestyorkin has been the No. 1 with SKA St. Petersburg---he's been sharing the job the last few years and usually is the backup when the playoffs come around. His team has signed Hellberg two/three years down the line so if Igor decides to stay in St. Petersburg he can probably figure on sharing with Hellberg some more the next couple years. So apart from maybe making more money if he's in the KHL (which would happen probably whether he's in the AHL or the NHL) staying with his current team in Russia is maybe not a bad option but also maybe not the best. In any case someone's got to do the Hartford deal and I'd rather not trade either Georgiev or Shestyorkin at less than full value and right now I don't think we'd get great value for either. If he does end up in Hartford he should get lots and lots of work.
Re: Day, I'd say that since returning from the ECHL, he has looked like a prospect worth keeping in the AHL. But I'd stop there, personally. Still, that's a positive development for him.
- Aug 5, 2010
- 13,860
- 9,489
1st year pro whose issue is processing the game fast enough? I will take his development into AHL top-4 regular over the course of a season as a positive too.
It stopped being funny a while ago, disagreements sure. Fights? We have had them all the time. I’ve been here 15 years or something. But when it’s just about stabbing people in the back like it’s for you it’s not cute anymore.
Think we are just of different generations. I can’t find ignore button on my mobile but you will be the first to go there once I go on the PC.
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