Hart Trophy Talk: MacKinnon, Malkin, Kucherov the Early Favorites, Scoring at Highest Rates By Far.

[Devils090]

The Devils 2nd and 3rd point leaders are both rookies and have been Hall’s linemates the majority of the season. He absolutely makes players around him better.

 

[mazmin]

Jets are one of the higher scoring teams in the league(219)about the same spot as Pittsburgh(220). Vegas(225) isn't much higher and Tb(243)leads the league. The Jets have a lot of talent including on the first line.
Despite these offensive numbers Wheeler still only has 18 goals on the year.
Say what you want about McDavid but the numbers don't lie. The Oilers have about 40 less goals on the year.
Could make similar cases for Hall and MacKinnon all who score more goals with similar PPG.
Now if we mention defense or goaltending Connor is a Vezina candidate this year.
Other than Vaz of Tb you can't mAke a case for any other team among the top Hart candidates.
In fact I could make the case that Laine is more valuable to the Jets success than Wheeler. And Schiefele is one of the better Centers in the league.
I really don't see a case for Wheeler at all.

You may not see a case for Wheeler but you probably don't follow the Jets closely. He's by far the most valuable Jet foward and his defensive game and forecheck intensity are unmatched by most wingers. He set the tone for this team early in the season and the results speak for themselves.

That said, since Blake does have some outstanding support on his team I'd bet MacKinnon and Hall are the favourites for MVP at this very moment.

Blake has a better chance winning the Lester (MVP voted by the players) if it's still a thing.

 

[a mangy Meowth]

Blake has a better chance winning the Lester (MVP voted by the players) if it's still a thing.

It's called the Ted Lindsay award now

 

[Laineux]

What I always wonder about p/60 is that why doesn't every team play their two top lines combined 44 minutes and the 3rd line 16 minutes if playing that much has zero effect on efficiency?

 

[severian]

I'm a Devils fan, so I'm obviously somewhat biased. However, without Taylor Hall we are talking about whether the Devils are picking Dahlin or Svechnikov instead of the playoff race. That's pretty damn valuable IMO.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Seriously? 15 wins at most without Malkin?

What are you even talking about. Malkin has missed plenty of partial seasons in the past and pens never missed playoffs. And this wasn't even a back to back cup champ Pens team.

If Malkin was out - Crosby and co would simply step up more. They absolutely would find a way to make playoffs still. And MUCH moreso than that - they would not be a lottery team.

I agree, imo it would be a wake up call that the pens would rally around. Don't forget the pens have made the playoffs with both Crosby and Malkin missing the second half of the season (10-11). And that was back when the pens forward depth was not particularly great.

 

[Powerslave]

Kopitar any day...

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Hall has more points just during his point streak than the third leading scorer on the team has in his entire season.

 

[TheAngryHank]

It could be easily argued that without Malkin PIT wouldn't be in play offs.

Penguins were 23rd in the league in Pt% and out of play offs before Malkin started his hot streak. Then they won 17 in their last 24 games. In those 24 games the team is +15 at 5v5 when Malkin is on ice and +1 when he is not. It gets to +22 vs +4 if you count all ES situations. And it's not exactly that he played with Kessel or Crosby. Of his 387 ES minutes only 129 were with one of them on ice (110 Kessel, 9 Crosby, 10 both). Malkin is also +21 in that span while no other PIT player has more than +13 (Kessel +11, Crosby +6).

So the question is who would step in to replace that contribution. And how many wins of those 17 wouldn't be wins. And keep in mind that all it takes for PIT is having 5 less wins and they are looking from the outside.

Don't both Crosby and Malkin play better historically when the other is out of the lineup?

 

[SoulDynasty]

I'm a Devils fan, so I'm obviously somewhat biased. However, without Taylor Hall we are talking about whether the Devils are picking Dahlin or Svechnikov instead of the playoff race. That's pretty damn valuable IMO.

Sure, but the exact same can be said of MacKinnon and the Avs. Only difference is MacKinnon has more points than Hall.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Sure, but the exact same can be said of MacKinnon and the Avs. Only difference is MacKinnon has more points than Hall.

The other difference is MacKinnon has a bit more help around him than Hall does.

 

[SoulDynasty]

The other difference is MacKinnon has a bit more help around him than Hall does.

Not enough to change anything for Hart voters. They’ll either vote for who is leading the league in points (Kucherov), or vote for the strongest candidate that is unquestionably dragging their team to the playoffs (MacKinnon). Like I said earlier, the only way Malkin or Hall gets in the conversation is if they surpass one of those two.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Not enough to change anything for Hart voters. They’ll either vote for who is leading the league in points (Kucherov), or vote for the strongest candidate that is unquestionably dragging their team to the playoffs (MacKinnon). Like I said earlier, the only way Malkin or Hall gets in the conversation is if they surpass one of those two.

How do you know it's not enough? He only has 4 more points than Hall while getting more help offensively from teammates.

Second in scoring on the Avs has 64 points. That is only a 14 point difference from first, where MacKinnon is, to second.

Hall sits at 74 points while Hischier is in second with 41. That is a huge difference in points.

Third place in scoring on the Avs would be second in scoring on the Devils, and he would still be at a 26 point difference between him and Hall.

So you say MacKinnon is unquestionably dragging his team into the playoffs, yet some how Hall isn't even though the scoring difference between one and two on the Devils is much bigger than the difference between one and two on the Avs? And when the Avs third best scorer would be second on the Devils?

 

[McOilers97]

Not enough to change anything for Hart voters. They’ll either vote for who is leading the league in points (Kucherov), or vote for the strongest candidate that is unquestionably dragging their team to the playoffs (MacKinnon). Like I said earlier, the only way Malkin or Hall gets in the conversation is if they surpass one of those two.

I understand the sentiment that Mackinnon probably has the inside track on Hall right now, but even if Hall doesn't surpass him, he'd still be "in the conversation" - in the top 5 for sure.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

I just find it funny how someone is gonna act like MacKinnon is the sole reason the Avs have a playoff shot and ignore how Hall is doing the same thing with less help than MacKinnon has around him.

3rd and 4th place in scoring on the Avs would take second and third place in scoring on the Devils and drop Hischier out of second place for the Devils into 4th place.

5th place in scoring on the Avs would be third place in scoring on the Devils. That is how much Hall is really driving his team.

 

[SoulDynasty]

How do you know it's not enough? He only has 4 more points than Hall while getting more help offensively from teammates.

Second in scoring on the Avs has 64 points. That is only a 14 point difference from first, where MacKinnon is, to second.

Hall sits at 74 points while Hischier is in second with 41. That is a huge difference in points.

Third place in scoring on the Avs would be second in scoring on the Devils, and he would still be at a 26 point difference between him and Hall.

So you say MacKinnon is unquestionably dragging his team into the playoffs, yet some how Hall isn't even though the scoring difference between one and two on the Devils is much bigger than the difference between one and two on the Avs? And when the Avs third best scorer would be second on the Devils?

I never said Hall isnt. I said they both are, but MacKinnon has more points, which will lead to him getting the nod over the voters. The whole “second place on the team” argument doesn’t really do much to change the mind of the voters. Like I said, two mindsets (this year because there isn’t a defensemen/goalie great enough to be in this conversation) being most points in the league vs dragging a terrible team to the playoffs. So as of now, it’s Kucherov vs MacKinnon, with Malkin and Hall begins them.

 

[SoulDynasty]

I understand the sentiment that Mackinnon probably has the inside track on Hall right now, but even if Hall doesn't surpass him, he'd still be "in the conversation" - in the top 5 for sure.

Absolutely. Top 4 even. Just in my mind, he’s behind MacKinnon, and could only surpass him by actually surpassing him in points.

 

[tucker3434]

How do you know it's not enough? He only has 4 more points than Hall while getting more help offensively from teammates.

Second in scoring on the Avs has 64 points. That is only a 14 point difference from first, where MacKinnon is, to second.

Hall sits at 74 points while Hischier is in second with 41. That is a huge difference in points.

Third place in scoring on the Avs would be second in scoring on the Devils, and he would still be at a 26 point difference between him and Hall.

So you say MacKinnon is unquestionably dragging his team into the playoffs, yet some how Hall isn't even though the scoring difference between one and two on the Devils is much bigger than the difference between one and two on the Avs? And when the Avs third best scorer would be second on the Devils?

MacKinnon has 4 more points while playing in 4 less games. That isn’t insignificant.

And the Avs were a tire fire that finished dead last by a lot last year. They were pretty much unanimously picked to be a lottery team again this year. Their turnaround this year has been much, much more significant than the Devils, and MacKinnon is going to get a lot of credit for that, regardless of what Rantanen or Landeskog are doing this year.

 

[rintinw]

Don't both Crosby and Malkin play better historically when the other is out of the lineup?

Depends. Over their career Crosby doesn't seem to have better P/GP when alone:
Malkin has
- 760 in 652 (1.17 P/GP) when both in lineup
- 154 in 117 (1.32) when only Malkin in lineup
Crosby has
- 848 in 652 (1.30) when both in lineup
- 147 in 116 (1.27) when only Crosby in lineup; or 249 in 197 (1.26) if you count also 2005-06 season here

But if you are looking at last few seasons then he usually does. He has better P/GP when Malkin is out of the lineup in current season (4 games), 2015-16 season (24 games), 2013-14 season (20 games), 2012-13 season (13 games) and 2010-11 season (5 games).

 

[The Devil In I]

Hall has one less point than the Devils 2nd and 3rd leading scorers combined...

 

[The Right Price]

This should be Taylor Hall's trophy this year. He is by far the most valuable to his team. Remove him from the Devils and I highly doubt they would be in contention for the Playoffs.

 

[Laineux]

Aleksandr Barkov. Selke level defence, extremely tough usage, most TOI of forwards in the league, on pace to hit 87 points. First option at PP, PK, last minute trying to hold a lead, last minute trying to catch a lead.

 

[Little Psycho]

Compare the two rosters and it's pretty easy to see. Hall is 100% carrying the team; Kopitar has a strong scoring lead for the Kings, but he's still got Doughty and Muzzin on there on the back end, Toffoli, etc.

LA has a total of seven players above 30 points; NJ has five. Comparing the top 10 guys (after Hall and Kopitar) on each team, LA has a total of 308 points, while NJ has 267. Hall and Kopitar are performing similarly on an individual basis, but Hall has a strong lead in terms of importance to team when you look at the numbers he's producing. People have also done comparisons of Hall on/off the ice that I'm too lazy to find, but they also paint a glowing picture of him.

That's BS. Kopitar has been caring the team since Carter got injured. Of course you are only looking at the stats. Muzzin has been inconsistent the past two years, his game has gotten better the start of this year but everyone not named Doughty has been having a lot of ups and downs hence why they got Phaneuf. Toffoli has 20 plus goals but he has been having a disappointing season in every other aspect of his game and Pearson disappeared along with him when the Kings needed their top guys the most. Kopitar has been doing it all with Brown and Iafallo (most of the season ) as his wingers. He deserves to be nominated but I know it will be difficult since there are a lot of good candidates.

 

[Connor McConnor]

I just find it funny how someone is gonna act like MacKinnon is the sole reason the Avs have a playoff shot and ignore how Hall is doing the same thing with less help than MacKinnon has around him.

3rd and 4th place in scoring on the Avs would take second and third place in scoring on the Devils and drop Hischier out of second place for the Devils into 4th place.

5th place in scoring on the Avs would be third place in scoring on the Devils. That is how much Hall is really driving his team.

I don't think anyone in here is trying to dismiss what Hall is doing for the Devils. People are saying he is a top 4 MVP candidate which is very high praise not disrespect. The fact is, MacKinnon has been more dominant than Hall this year and to be honest I think he has a decent advantage. He has 10 GWG to Hall's 5 and 4 more points in 4 less games. If you look deeper into the statistics you see that Hall has started 10% more than MacK in the offensive zone. You couple that with the fact Colorado had 22 less points last year than New Jersey (and they were both shit don't get me wrong) it's really favoring MacK here.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Aleksandr Barkov. Selke level defence, extremely tough usage, most TOI of forwards in the league, on pace to hit 87 points. First option at PP, PK, last minute trying to hold a lead, last minute trying to catch a lead.

Barkov has really stepped up his game of late and with the injury to Bergeron has to be the favourite for the Selke right now (Kopitar a close 2nd) and should also get some MVP love but this stacked class probably keeps him out of even the top 5. His future looks extremely bright, glad he finally was able to stay healthy and put together a season that matches high calibre of play. Should be an MVP candidate of the future for sure.