Grub's Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | Roll with the Changes

[Quinning]

Miller for Middlestadt + 1st is enough for me. Flip the first with some other assets for a top 4 defender. Try to make some additional deals and go into next season with a fresh start.

Middlestadt is a big downgrade from Miller in the 2C role though.

 

[Quinning]

The missed opportunity feels just as bad the morning after. The Canucks are going to pay dearly for deals they didn't make much earlier on. Nobody could have predicted Miller and Pettersson's post extension value would have tanked like it has, Miller more so though he did have the best year of his career last season, but it has and both need to go.

The on-ice results are one thing, but the Canucks have publicly poured gas on the situation with how they handled Miller's LOA and Allvin's public ripping of EP40, it sounds like teams are now also leery of adding either player to their locker rooms, and who can blame them. Hard to believe it's reached this point.

Hoping for the best return on both players but prepared for the worst.

The way this has unfolded should make more teams second-guess signing players to big money, long term deals, unless they're McDavid/Draisaitl level talents. There's way too much security for players (especially with NMCs) and we just saw Colorado unwilling to commit $13-14 million per to a player who is certainly worth that today, but in 3-4 years will likely not be. Otherwise, there's no way they make that trade because Rantanen is easily the most valuable player involved. Marner is another one that teams will regret shelling out max cap hit and term to sign.

Deals should be capped at 5 years max IMO. 8 years with a full NMC is a terrible business decision, and hockey is a business. There's no other employment relationship in the world that operates with those kinds of terms - specifically talking about other highly skilled, sought-after career specialists. If you don't produce, you don't last. Pettersson has been playing to 50% of his cap hit, and Miller's actions are showing others around the league exactly what can happen if you don't build a healthy locker room dynamic. Management also botched the opportunity to discreetly solve the issue.

Leave it to the Canucks to be the team others learn lessons from watching.

 

[SopelFanThe3rd]

So we basically went back and tried to get the Pettersson deal we initially turned down to sign him?

Biggest mistake this management team made.

 

[SopelFanThe3rd]

Hitching their wagon to proven failures instead of proven winners is what's going to cause a series of dark times coming up.

 

[TruGr1t]

The way this has unfolded is going to make more teams second-guess signing players to big money, long term deals. There's way too much security for players (especially with NMCs) and we just saw Colorado unwilling to commit $13-14 million per to a player who is certainly worth that today, but in 3-4 years will likely not be. Otherwise, there's no way they make that trade because Rantanen is easily the most valuable player involved. Marner is another one that teams will regret shelling out max cap hit and term to sign.

Deals should be capped at 5 years max IMO. 8 years with a full NMC is a terrible business decision, and hockey is a business. There's no other employment relationship in the world that operates with those kinds of terms - specifically talking about other highly skilled, sought-after career specialists. If you don't produce, you don't last. Miller's actions are showing others around the league exactly what can happen if you don't build a healthy locker room dynamic, and the Canucks bungled the opportunity to discreetly solve the issue.

Leave it to the Canucks to be the team others learn lessons from watching.

I was thinking about this and it seems sort of like a Canadian ownership thing. US teams generally have no issue making these types of trades where they move effectively a "star" or high-end player for strategic or cap reasons, whereas Canadian teams rarely do it. I wonder if it's just that there is so much PR and gnashing of teeth since hockey is so under the microscope here, whereas in US markets it is the 2nd or 3rd sport and you can sort of brush this stuff under the rug and move on.

I think we saw this specifically with Pettersson wherein management just couldn't handle moving him, even if they were, behind closed doors, hesitant to sign him to a big-money term because he was playing like ass during negotiations.

Miller is a bit different since the risk was not his play at the time, but giving that term/money to a player of that age, or a contract that takes him too far into his 30s. Management took the risk since they wagered the competitive window would be the years before he started to really decline. It obviously worked, and now it isn't. Whether you agree with that risk or not is up for debate, as is chosing Miller over Horvat at this point, IMO.

I'm not sure a Canadian team could make the Rantanen trade because all the focus would be on how you gave up a top-10 player in his prime during a so-called "competitive" period when you still have guys like MacKinnon and Makar.

 

[Quinning]

Hitching their wagon to proven failures instead of proven winners is what's going to cause a series of dark times coming up.

We've been in dark timelines since 2013, with periods of brief reprieve. Most of us barely survived the Benning years, experienced a few months of what winning culture felt like again, only to have it ripped away from us. Feels like being a kid who spent years in poverty only to have his Dad win the lottery but immediately invested the winnings into a memecoin and lost it all.

 

[JT Milker]

Hitching their wagon to proven failures instead of proven winners is what's going to cause a series of dark times coming up.

Who’s a proven winner on the current team?

 

[theguardianII]

Probably because they weren't willing to trade Pettersson for Necas and KK? Just like they weren't last year.

And the two draft picks and it was Drury. But done and gone.

I let my inner Canuck fan overreact.

Usually I do like to wait for awhile 12 to 24 hours before reacting and to analyze the days events.

This maybe a good thing spurring others to make better offers, a few contenders anyway, the other teams still fighting for a playoff spot have not changed much but a few with 53 pts a rumored to be open for business.

 

[racerjoe]

Who’s a proven winner on the current team?

Ironically the guy with a SHL MVP to his name…

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Most significant development to me yesterday is that the Canucks were having trade talks about Pettersson, too. It’s sounding more and more like they’re prepared to totally blow up this core. The lack of extension talks around Boeser, Woodley’s report on Demko, and the talks about Miller and Petey. Seismic shifts could be afoot.

Or not. Who really knows. But it drives clicks!

 

[Canucks LB]

Most significant development to me yesterday is that the Canucks were having trade talks about Pettersson, too. It’s sounding more and more like they’re prepared to totally blow up this core. The lack of extension talks around Boeser, Woodley’s report on Demko, and the talks about Miller and Petey. Seismic shifts could be afoot.

Or not. Who really knows. But it drives clicks!

Blowing up the core is one thing, trading every single player from the core is another.

From reports, petey, miller, demko, and boeser are basically available, do they keep JT Miller long-term if they trade petey?

Brock being gone in my opinion is a forgone conclusion.

Is it so crazy to think we might trade three out of the four guys?

This is Jim Rutherford after all

 

[Peter Griffin]

Worth noting it's their own 3rd rounder. Makes me wonder about an offer sheet in the off season?

Good thought, but it’s a 2025 pick, that can’t be used as offer sheet compensation going forward.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Colorado getting Miller would be like them getting Kadri again but better.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

So who are trying to trade but not going to trade today?

Miller? EP? Demko? Brock? Fin?

Going to the game today so can’t wait to see what happens!

 

[Quinning]

Most significant development to me yesterday is that the Canucks were having trade talks about Pettersson, too. It’s sounding more and more like they’re prepared to totally blow up this core. The lack of extension talks around Boeser, Woodley’s report on Demko, and the talks about Miller and Petey. Seismic shifts could be afoot.

Or not. Who really knows. But it drives clicks!

Unpopular opinion, but...

We should be prepared for Hughes to want to test the market in a few years, and they'll likely trade him for a massive haul to kickstart the rebuild. His agent is JP Barry is who is notorious for contract holdouts, and we know there is always the Jack/Luke factor playing into things. Doubly so if the team dynamic is still not great once one or both of the Gruesome Twosome are moved out. Hughes is still good value even at a max term/cap deal, but that essentially means you have to have zero margin for error in constructing the rest of the roster, and we've seen how that's gone in the last decade plus.

IMO if you're blowing up the core, you might as well get it over with and move him in the offseason while he still has a few years left being cost-controlled. He is worth an absolute King's Ransom, and as much as it would hurt trading a generational talent in the middle of his prime, they did such a terrible job of building the team around him that losing him for nothing sounds like a much, much worse option. The mistake was always building around their forwards instead of recognizing what they had in Hughes, and doing their absolute best to tailor the system and personnel to his game.

Bottom out for a few years during the McKenna/Dupont drafts, and try to start over fresh with a genuine rebuild. The Canucks have been avoiding a rebuild since Gillis left. You cannot generally retool your way to a Stanley Cup, that is something that desperate GMs and Presidents do so they can remain employed. Very savvy managers can pull it off, but we're talking maybe four or five in the entire league. No owner wants to accept a rebuild, but IMO you can't actually compete without going through the process properly. Cutting corners has always burned this franchise.

 

[sting101]

Would have been unreal to get that 5 million and Necas for Pettersson.

I wanted Necas in the 2017 draft to begin with. Now he's cheaper and has grown his game more than EP40 without whatever physical and mental issues he has

 

[Quinning]

Would have been unreal to get that 5 million and Necas for Pettersson.

I wanted Necas in the 2017 draft to begin with. Now he's cheaper and has grown his game more than EP40 without whatever physical and mental issues he has

Awful mistake that will be the undoing of this core. They knew what was going on in the room and they pressured Pettersson into signing when he wanted to leave instead of just trading him for a good value package.

 

[Hodgy]

Yeah, that’s not entirely clear. Early today, Seravalli said that the Hurricanes had proposed several different scenarios. So it may just be a moot point. Both sides were negotiating and the Hurricanes were also dealing with the Avalanche and Blackhawks.

Ya, I recalled the earlier report which is why I assumed it was Carolina that proposed them. But assuming the rumour is true, it’s a massive difference if it was Vancouver since it would signal they are fine moving on from Pettersson.

I dunno. To me, Chicago is the most puzzling team here.

I see the rationale from the other sides. CAR is taking the big swing and going all-in. They need a true finisher. They got another useful player in Hall. COL doesn't think they're gonna re-sign Rantanen so they replace him with Necas - who while inferior, I think his skating/transition ability will fit the Avs really well. And they have more cap space to make another move.

Chicago trades Hall AND uses a retention slot at $4+M for.....a third round pick. Seems pretty light.


Carolina/Tulsky were dummying Vancouver the entire time. Negotiating ploy with COL to say they have "another deal" on the table.

It makes sense because Hall isn’t really a “useful” piece at $6 million, he is scoring at a 0.5 ppg and has been healthy scratched by the team. And when he was scratched he wasn’t I even given any warning. I think it’s likely that the Chicago brass just wanted to get Hall out of the dressing room.

In that context it makes sense that Chicago only got a third for retaining ok Rantanen. They probably would have got like a second if Hall wasn’t being dumped as well.

Most significant development to me yesterday is that the Canucks were having trade talks about Pettersson, too. It’s sounding more and more like they’re prepared to totally blow up this core. The lack of extension talks around Boeser, Woodley’s report on Demko, and the talks about Miller and Petey. Seismic shifts could be afoot.

Or not. Who really knows. But it drives clicks!

The report is difficult to interpret. Not sure of Carolina or Vancouver put the two offers on the table, but I think it was the former based on earlier reports.

 

[StickShift]

Would have been unreal to get that 5 million and Necas for Pettersson.

I wanted Necas in the 2017 draft to begin with. Now he's cheaper and has grown his game more than EP40 without whatever physical and mental issues he has

I still believe that trading Pettersson last year for Necas was the biggest missed opportunity. They could’ve properly loaded up to win the Stanley Cup.

Had they traded Pettersson for Necas(+) then—they would have had the cap space and assets to go after Jake Guentzel and maybe Chris Tanev too.

Imagine last year’s playoffs with:

Guentzel-Miller-Boeser
Garland-Lindholm-Joshua
Hoglander-Suter-Necas

And

Hughes-Hronek
Zadorov-Tanev
Soucy-Myers

 

[ahmon]

To me the craziest part of the Rantanen trade is how Colorado didnt even get a 1st back along with Necas.

Sure Necas cheaper, but he's been a 60-70 point guy for while. There is pretty big risk that he simply had a really hot 2 months to start the season and will start to average out to that level.

Rantanen is proven commodity and more importantly has good chemistry between him and your other stars. Chemistry is not a given.

Rantanen isn't even 30 yet and has over 100 points in the playoffs. Those are Hall of fame numbers#.

 

[mriswith]

Colorado always made sense for Miller. Middlestadt and Ritchie are interesting pieces.

It would make it really hard to get through them in the playoffs for the rest of Hughes' current contract though.

 

[theguardianII]

Allvin on what to do


Allvin and the other 3 GM's

Allvins message to ...all the team and their response


Team response also, some of them, the old core players

 

[Canucker]

To me the craziest part of the Rantanen trade is how Colorado didnt even get a 1st back along with Necas.

Sure Necas cheaper, but he's been a 60-70 point guy for while. There is pretty big risk that he simply had a really hot 2 months to start the season and will start to average out to that level.

Rantanen is proven commodity and more importantly has good chemistry between him and your other stars. Chemistry is not a given.

Rantanen isn't even 30 yet and has over 100 points in the playoffs. Those are Hall of fame numbers#.

Money is the problem...he's going to want $14m+ so teams are paying rental prices because there is no guarantee they'll be able to sign him.

 

[ahmon]

Canucks: Byram, Chytil

Buffalo: Schneider

NYR: JT Miller, Kulich, BUF 2nd

so buffalo trade Kulich, byram and 2nd for Schneider?

Byram is better than Schneider

 

[Bgav]

Blowing up the core is one thing, trading every single player from the core is another.

From reports, petey, miller, demko, and boeser are basically available, do they keep JT Miller long-term if they trade petey?

Brock being gone in my opinion is a forgone conclusion.

Is it so crazy to think we might trade three out of the four guys?

This is Jim Rutherford after all

Makes no sense to keep JT. They’ve almost traded him like 5 times. He’s 32. Just going to get worse. If you trade Petey fine, you still have to trade miller at this point. Too much has happened.