Value of: Goaltender to EDM

[TFHockey]

Habs fan here - seems to me Edm needs a golie and possibly some D depth. Also seems like they are very forward heavy and that there are some promising youth at offense that may be "expendable" as a result.

Any chance there would be some interest about packaging one of Allen or Primeau and Savard plus sweeteners in picks for a promising forward prospect? I dont know much about Edm prospects, but the rumors around Bourgault and Savoie (again with the rumors around french sounding names!!) are always going around. Bourgault seems like a TWD and Savoie projects as a 3rd line PWF, but im curious in Petrov, which seems to be a Offense first type of player. Any interest in moving those three? How close in value are they?

There has been a lot of talk about Allen being moved to Edmonton in the media, but like most trade talk it is all speculation without any evidence that Holland & Co. are really interested.

Any trade with Edmonton means whatever salary coming in has to equal salary coming out.

Allen would probably get a 2nd as the top return for his services considering his contract and stats. That's based on the trades we've seen happen over the past 5 years or so. I don't see Edmonton doing that without a salary dump going the other way, and how is that appealing to the Habs?

Certainly nothing you mentioned in your proposal warrants the Oilers moving Bourgault. Savoie and Petrov can be had more cheaply than him for sure.

I suspect that these reasons are why no trade has happened between Edmonton and Montreal concerning Allen. A better and cheaper alternative would be Mackenzie Blackwood out of SJS. Allen's numbers are *slightly* better but he is six years older and his cap hit is $1.5 Million dollars higher.

 

[jackjohnson]

Huge work there. But what for. Whats the offer for Hart to Edm?
A 6th like Blackwood?
a 4th like Hill?
A 3rd like Dubnyk?

Hart would probably get a 2nd but if demand for goalie is high at TDL, Philly can squeeze out a first imo. If I were Philly, I would ask for a first from Edmonton

 

[McNuge]

Hart would probably get a 2nd but if demand for goalie is high at TDL, Philly can squeeze out a first imo. If I were Philly, I would ask for a first from Edmonton

You think Philly would take a 2nd for Hart??? A 25 Y.O goalie who's in his 5th season with over 220 games already. A ton of teams are in the same boat as us needing a goalie. If he was available for a second he would have been traded long ago.

 

[TFHockey]

You think Philly would take a 2nd for Hart??? A 25 Y.O goalie who's in his 5th season with over 220 games already. A ton of teams are in the same boat as us needing a goalie. If he was available for a second he would have been traded long ago.

Hart would probably get a 2nd but if demand for goalie is high at TDL, Philly can squeeze out a first imo. If I were Philly, I would ask for a first from Edmonton

Hart, as a starter, would clearly get more than a 2nd. However if a 1st goes for any goaltender there are almost always serious conditions attached, like the receiving team making it to the WCF.

Would Philly trade Hart right now? Dunno.

 

[bucks_oil]

Habs fan here - seems to me Edm needs a golie and possibly some D depth. Also seems like they are very forward heavy and that there are some promising youth at offense that may be "expendable" as a result.

Any chance there would be some interest about packaging one of Allen or Primeau and Savard plus sweeteners in picks for a promising forward prospect? I dont know much about Edm prospects, but the rumors around Bourgault and Savoie (again with the rumors around french sounding names!!) are always going around. Bourgault seems like a TWD and Savoie projects as a 3rd line PWF, but im curious in Petrov, which seems to be a Offense first type of player. Any interest in moving those three? How close in value are they?

In the right deal, they all could be available... Petrov (I think) is the least likely to be traded, Savoie most likely, Bourgualt in between.

The 1st problem is the cap. We have ZERO available, so any depth goaltender or defender that is added will require removing depth elsewhere. (ie even fitting in Allen requires tough decisions on guys like Foegele, Kulak, etc).

Thus it is more likely that if we make any moves, they would necessarily be upgrade type moves... ie we trade both Kulak ($2.75m) + Ceci($3.1m), perhaps in separate trades to make salary room for an upgraded 2nd pairing $5M RD (as an example) and bring up Broberg ($1.1M) for the 3rd pairing.

The 2nd problem is Allen... he's got another year under contract, so trading for him means committing to that platoon next year, and I"m not sure that the Oilers want another $4M tied up in a backup goalie with inexperienced Skinner as the starter... it feels to me like another half measure. Now a half measure may be all that is available now, but I don't want to be saddled with that same half-measure for next year. Skinner + Allen doesn't feel like a Stanley Cup tandem to me.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Hart would probably get a 2nd but if demand for goalie is high at TDL, Philly can squeeze out a first imo. If I were Philly, I would ask for a first from Edmonton

No way Philly takes a 2nd for Hart in any scenario. The price tag on Hart would be a couple of firsts for sure. Probably not worth the price tag, just like any other player that isn't really for trade.

 

[jackjohnson]

No way Philly takes a 2nd for Hart in any scenario. The price tag on Hart would be a couple of firsts for sure. Probably not worth the price tag, just like any other player that isn't really for trade.

No goalie has gone for 2 1sts and the last notable goalie to get a kings ransom was when Vancouver traded for Luongo and Florida got Bertuzzi. Hart is not close to Luongo level so asking for 2 1sts is too much

 

[theVladiator]

No goalie has gone for 2 1sts and the last notable goalie to get a kings ransom was when Vancouver traded for Luongo and Florida got Bertuzzi. Hart is not close to Luongo level so asking for 2 1sts is too much

That's because teams do not trade their young starters. Unless it's a ransom.

By the way, Luongo's (to VAN) return wasn't really ransom level. Bertuzzi was a bit of damaged goods after suspension. The reason the return was not so impressive is because Luongo was a UFA contract about to walk.

Now, if you want an older guy, or a younger guy that's not seen as more than a backup by the current team, or a struggling starter team wants to move, those can be had cheaply.

 

[ManofSteel55]

No goalie has gone for 2 1sts and the last notable goalie to get a kings ransom was when Vancouver traded for Luongo and Florida got Bertuzzi. Hart is not close to Luongo level so asking for 2 1sts is too much

That Loungo trade was nearly 20 years ago, and Lou was coming up to free agency on a team that didn't know how to make the playoffs. Might as well compare the Grant Fuhr to Toronto trade while we are at it. It's just too old of a trade to compare to, the league is different today. Plus, Bertuzzi was still seen as a marquee power forward in the NHL, despite the suspension for breaking Moore's neck. Nobody knew that his health was about to end his career.

The most comparable trade would be Cory Schneider for the Bo Horvat pick, but even that one is too old to really compare. Hart going for 2 late first round picks is pretty close to Schneider going for a top 10, and both were young and seen as having very good upside. Hart is more proven than Schneider was though.

Really though, young starting goalies with a lot of upside simply don't get traded often enough to look at any trades as a comparable. Nobody has traded a Carter Hart caliber goalie at 25 years old in decades.

But the real reason I'm comfortable saying two 1sts, is that Philadelphia isn't trading him, and the goalie market appears to be very much stacked in the favour of the teams trading the goalies. Three teams who came into this season as cup contenders have goaltending issues - Edmonton, Toronto and Carolina. That's three contending teams who Philly will play against one another.

If it was as simple as Hart for a 1st, Philly likely would have traded him over the summer when there were rumours that he was available. It doesn't matter if it is "too much" if that's the price that Philly has set for Hart, and they have no reason to move him.

 

[TFHockey]

I don't see Carter Hart landing two firsts. Very few goaltenders land a first at all, and these are usually with conditions.

 

[jackjohnson]

That Loungo trade was nearly 20 years ago, and Lou was coming up to free agency on a team that didn't know how to make the playoffs. Might as well compare the Grant Fuhr to Toronto trade while we are at it. It's just too old of a trade to compare to, the league is different today. Plus, Bertuzzi was still seen as a marquee power forward in the NHL, despite the suspension for breaking Moore's neck. Nobody knew that his health was about to end his career.

The most comparable trade would be Cory Schneider for the Bo Horvat pick, but even that one is too old to really compare. Hart going for 2 late first round picks is pretty close to Schneider going for a top 10, and both were young and seen as having very good upside. Hart is more proven than Schneider was though.

Really though, young starting goalies with a lot of upside simply don't get traded often enough to look at any trades as a comparable. Nobody has traded a Carter Hart caliber goalie at 25 years old in decades.

But the real reason I'm comfortable saying two 1sts, is that Philadelphia isn't trading him, and the goalie market appears to be very much stacked in the favour of the teams trading the goalies. Three teams who came into this season as cup contenders have goaltending issues - Edmonton, Toronto and Carolina. That's three contending teams who Philly will play against one another.

If it was as simple as Hart for a 1st, Philly likely would have traded him over the summer when there were rumours that he was available. It doesn't matter if it is "too much" if that's the price that Philly has set for Hart, and they have no reason to move him.

So don't goalies have lesser value now since there isn't any goalie like Luongo playing now. Maybe Vasi is one.

 

[ManofSteel55]

So don't goalies have lesser value now since there isn't any goalie like Luongo playing now. Maybe Vasi is one.

No, and that logic just doesn't work. To begin with, values of 20 years ago aren't in line with values of today.

Next, Philly isn't showing signs of needing to trade Hart. They have him locked up long term, and he is playing well for them. Florida was a tire fire at that time, couldn't buy a trip to the playoffs, and they knew that Lou was tired of losing and wouldn't be re-signing with them.

The laws of supply and demand are in play here as well. If there are fewer clear-cut starters now than there were then (there are), then a young starting goalie's value will be through the roof in a year when at least three contenders are looking for goaltending. This isn't some average backup we are talking about here - we aren't getting a Carter Hart for nothing, it would have to be worthwhile for the Flyers to trade him.

I don't see Carter Hart landing two firsts. Very few goaltenders land a first at all, and these are usually with conditions.

I don't see Philadelphia trading Carter Hart unless they know they are winning the trade. They have no reason to. Who was the last Carter Hart level goalie to get traded? Considering age and performance. I mentioned Corey Schneider earlier, and that was a number of years ago.

 

[Kaibur]

Would Edmonton consider retaining 50% of Campbell and paying to unload the rest, rather than just buying out?

He's owed $13.5M after this season. A buyout is $9M and 50% retention is $6.75M but also leaves $6.75M to unload.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

I think Oilers fans would be thrilled if somehow they could shoehorn Jack Campbell into a deal for another goalie although I am not sure that is at all possible.

I think Philly fans would demand a big return for a guy like Carter Hart glossing over the fact that goalies don't tend to land a lot in trades.

Historically speaking:

2006 Dwayne Roloson traded from Minnesota to Edmonton for a 1st and a 3rd (an expensive rental at the time, Roloson resigned with the team though)
2008 Cristobal Huet traded from Montreal to Washington for a 2nd (Huet takes over as starter for the Caps)
2011 Craig Anderson traded from Colorado to Ottawa for goaltender Brian Elliott
2014 Roberto Luongo traded from Vancouver to Florida along with Steven Anthony for Jacob Markstrom and Shawn Matthias
2015 Devan Dubnyk traded from Arizona to Minnesota for a 3rd (Dubnyk was trying to salvage his career)
2018 Darcy Kuemper traded from L.A. to Arizona for Tobias Reider and Scott Wedgewood (Kuemper was a back up who looked ready to be a starter)
2020 Jack Campbell traded from L.A. to Toronto along with Kyle Clifford for two 3rds. Campbell was a back up with limited games in the NHL
2020 Robin Lehner traded from Chicago to Las Vegas for a 2nd and two mid tier prospects (Demin and Subban)

Typically the goalies that got moved were for 2nd, 3rd or 4th round picks. Not a lot in terms of return.

More recently *trades for only future considerations ignored, and there were quite a few!

2022 Scott Wedgewood traded from Arizona to Dallas for a 4th
2022 Kappo Kahkonen traded from Minnesota to San Jose for Defenseman Jacob Middleton
2022 Andrew Hammond traded from Montreal for Nate Schnarr
2022 MAF traded to Minnesota from Chicago for a conditional 2nd, turns into a 1st if Minny reaches the WCF and MAF wins 4 games in each round)
2022 Petr Mrazek traded from Toronto along with a 1st round pick (#25) to Chicago for a 2nd
2022 Alexander Georgiev traded from NYR to Colorado for two 3rds and and a 5th
2022 Ville Husso traded from St. Louis to Detroit for a 3rd
2022 Adin Hill traded from SJS to Las Vegas for a 4th

Again, we're seeing mostly 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th round picks being moved. Very few starters are moving though.

Some examples from this season:

2023 Keith Kinkaid traded from Boston to Colorado for Shane Bowers
2023 Johnathon Quick traded to CBJ along with a conditional 1st and a 3rd from the Kings for Joonas Korpisalo and Vladislav Gavrikov
2023 Johnathon Quick flipped to Las Vegas for Michael Hutchinson
2023 Mackenzie Blackwood traded to SJS from NJD for a 6th

So again the returns for goaltenders isn't great, but very few star goaltenders get moved. It is hard to determine the right cost for Hart as a result, but I think calling for multiple firsts or star players isn't very realistic. The same goes for Saros or whatever puckstopper you want to target. The goaltender market has rarely included 1sts and in the past 10 years they are usually conditional. In some cases a 1st was included to get RID of a goaltender. Oiler fans take note of this for considering what it would take to move Jack Campbell.

I think you missed the Kuemper for a first trade to Colorado. Halak was also traded for a first round prospect in Eller. I think Martin Jones also got a first round pick in a trade. They can happen.

 

[Andre Palot]

You guys want a slightly used Vitek Vanachek? All we want is return is an A list prospect by the name of Future Considerations

 

[ElPrimeTime]

Would Edmonton consider retaining 50% of Campbell and paying to unload the rest, rather than just buying out?

He's owed $13.5M after this season. A buyout is $9M and 50% retention is $6.75M but also leaves $6.75M to unload.

50% seems like too much considering how much his cap hit would be to buy him out in the offseason. I could see 30% though, bringing him down to $3.5M per,

 

[HuGort]

Oilers just need a goalie who is good enough. Look at Darcy Kuemper? Or Hill last year? Billington one year. Edmonton have all the other parts. A big name like Gibson going to cost a bundle plus he has two years left at 6million. Going to hurt going forward with Drai and McDavid need reupping in few years.

I like to see Oilers win a cup or at least get to Finals. Canadian team plus I am sick of hearing how you can't win with a McDavid or Matthews. Those antitank guys always perch that.

Maybe Acquire depth for a 3rd and go with three goalies. Out of them one should get hot during playoffs.

 

[Homesick]

Oilers just need a goalie who is good enough. Look at Darcy Kuemper? Or Hill last year? Billington one year. Edmonton have all the other parts. A big name like Gibson going to cost a bundle plus he has two years left at 6million. Going to hurt going forward with Drai and McDavid need reupping in few years.

I like to see Oilers win a cup or at least get to Finals. Canadian team plus I am sick of hearing how you can't win with a McDavid or Matthews. Those antitank guys always perch that.

Maybe Acquire depth for a 3rd and go with three goalies. Out of them one should get hot during playoffs.

I can't see the Oilers interested in John Gibson with 3.5 years remaining at 6.4m per.

Skinner and Pickard are sitting with a combined .903 Sv% and it's going to have to do.

 

[bernmeister]

This summer you wanted Mcleod, Bouchard, Holloway, Broberg and a 1st for Lafrenierre.

I think its pretty safe to say that Oilers fans should just ignore your trade suggestions.

Underline: this was only a standby to discuss what value of would work for Rs. I said, properly, they should hold on to LaF, his skating would continue to improve, and he would emerge as the next Steve Vickers.
bern was right!!! deal w/it.

bold: no one is cramming anything down yours or anyone else's throat.
I have made various suggestions over the years, and often, I was proven correct overall.
For example, there were multiple variations on Georgiev/Geo + Buch, etc etc to Oil.
You guys laughed like you're laughing now.
Meanwhile Avs got Geo cheap and won a cup.

but what does bern know...
... more than you care to admit

Keep dreaming Bern. The cost for Nurse at 50% is Shesterkin. As others have said, if we are talking about a cap dump, we'll give you Campbell for a first and a a 1st equivalent prospect. Which is the price (2 firsts) that Friedman speculated was the cost to move Campbell.
...

And people say I'm on drugs.
Nurse half or otherwise does not sniff Shesty
core pieces there are Shesty and Drai

Obv we are not talking cap dump
soup is an immovable, sunk cost at present
his $$$ and his term are both just a little bit too much to move.

Hence why, as constructive pt raised, not trolling, I pointed out IF getting cap help, not only short term but also ideally structural long term relief as even POSSIBILITY to create mechanism to have short term moves, dealing Nurse on surrender terms may be lesser of 2 evils

Again, as I said, Rs would have to retain again after to flip and get out from under long term, so NY has no interest unless profit can be had
AND this was really more for honest discussion than best possible strategy.

Howev, no interest on yr side about this as such.
So let's see how you get out of yr own mess.
Am happy to watch from sidelines.

...
The 1st problem is the cap. We have ZERO available, so any depth goaltender or defender that is added will require removing depth elsewhere. .....

FINALLY!
The other shoe has dropped!!

bern is vilified for speaking truth as to how crippling Oil cap situation is, but NOW
now we see an admission creating cap would be "require{d}".

I invited discussion about what else could be done to get meaningful cap, but ZERO constructive replies were submitted.

I do not intend to comment further in this thread, though I reserve my right to do so if necessary.

Let's see what 'in a vacuum' pure G deals this thread generates.
Let's see what cap moves, if any, can be offered to help.

As ever, I leave you all without rancor and in the spirit of HONEST promotion of competition of ideas

 

[FerrisRox]

The oilers really f***ed up with that salary for Campbell.

If he made $2m-ish a year I’d say the leafs and oilers could swap Samsonov for Campbell, but no one is going to take Campbell for anything at $5.5m

Oh wow, what a shame the Oilers are gonna miss out on that sweet Samsonov for Campbell trade.

What a loss.

 

[bucks_oil]

Would Edmonton consider retaining 50% of Campbell and paying to unload the rest, rather than just buying out?

He's owed $13.5M after this season. A buyout is $9M and 50% retention is $6.75M but also leaves $6.75M to unload.

The short term gain isn't worth the long term pain in that scenario. If we buy him out ourselves, our cap hits next year and years after range from $1.1m next year, $2.3m the year after, then $2.6, but then fall to $1.5M for the next three seasons. Our owner doesn't care about actual $$$, wants to win...

If we retain 50%, those cap hits jump to $2.5M for the next three seasons after this one and we only effectively gain $1.5M this year (his effective cap hit in the AHL right now is $4M... so $4m - $2.5m = $1.5m)

But maybe I'm missing something, not a cap-ologist... does anything happen to our retained $$$ if he gets bought out by the acquiring team?

 

[ManofSteel55]

Underline: this was only a standby to discuss what value of would work for Rs. I said, properly, they should hold on to LaF, his skating would continue to improve, and he would emerge as the next Steve Vickers.
bern was right!!! deal w/it.

bold: no one is cramming anything down yours or anyone else's throat.
I have made various suggestions over the years, and often, I was proven correct overall.
For example, there were multiple variations on Georgiev/Geo + Buch, etc etc to Oil.
You guys laughed like you're laughing now.
Meanwhile Avs got Geo cheap and won a cup.

but what does bern know...
... more than you care to admit



And people say I'm on drugs.
Nurse half or otherwise does not sniff Shesty
core pieces there are Shesty and Drai

Obv we are not talking cap dump
soup is an immovable, sunk cost at present
his $$$ and his term are both just a little bit too much to move.

Hence why, as constructive pt raised, not trolling, I pointed out IF getting cap help, not only short term but also ideally structural long term relief as even POSSIBILITY to create mechanism to have short term moves, dealing Nurse on surrender terms may be lesser of 2 evils

Again, as I said, Rs would have to retain again after to flip and get out from under long term, so NY has no interest unless profit can be had
AND this was really more for honest discussion than best possible strategy.

Howev, no interest on yr side about this as such.
So let's see how you get out of yr own mess.
Am happy to watch from sidelines.


FINALLY!
The other shoe has dropped!!

bern is vilified for speaking truth as to how crippling Oil cap situation is, but NOW
now we see an admission creating cap would be "require{d}".

I invited discussion about what else could be done to get meaningful cap, but ZERO constructive replies were submitted.

I do not intend to comment further in this thread, though I reserve my right to do so if necessary.

Let's see what 'in a vacuum' pure G deals this thread generates.
Let's see what cap moves, if any, can be offered to help.

As ever, I leave you all without rancor and in the spirit of HONEST promotion of competition of ideas

We're on a 9 game win streak. It doesn't feel like much of a mess.

And again, trading Nurse at 50% doesn't create any cap flexibility, as we would need to find a replacement, who would make more than the 50% cap we would save on Nurse. It is possibly the worst idea you have ever suggested, and that's saying something.

 

[Gaud]

There has been a lot of talk about Allen being moved to Edmonton in the media, but like most trade talk it is all speculation without any evidence that Holland & Co. are really interested.

Any trade with Edmonton means whatever salary coming in has to equal salary coming out.

Allen would probably get a 2nd as the top return for his services considering his contract and stats. That's based on the trades we've seen happen over the past 5 years or so. I don't see Edmonton doing that without a salary dump going the other way, and how is that appealing to the Habs?

Certainly nothing you mentioned in your proposal warrants the Oilers moving Bourgault. Savoie and Petrov can be had more cheaply than him for sure.

I suspect that these reasons are why no trade has happened between Edmonton and Montreal concerning Allen. A better and cheaper alternative would be Mackenzie Blackwood out of SJS. Allen's numbers are *slightly* better but he is six years older and his cap hit is $1.5 Million dollars higher.

In the right deal, they all could be available... Petrov (I think) is the least likely to be traded, Savoie most likely, Bourgualt in between.

The 1st problem is the cap. We have ZERO available, so any depth goaltender or defender that is added will require removing depth elsewhere. (ie even fitting in Allen requires tough decisions on guys like Foegele, Kulak, etc).

Thus it is more likely that if we make any moves, they would necessarily be upgrade type moves... ie we trade both Kulak ($2.75m) + Ceci($3.1m), perhaps in separate trades to make salary room for an upgraded 2nd pairing $5M RD (as an example) and bring up Broberg ($1.1M) for the 3rd pairing.

The 2nd problem is Allen... he's got another year under contract, so trading for him means committing to that platoon next year, and I"m not sure that the Oilers want another $4M tied up in a backup goalie with inexperienced Skinner as the starter... it feels to me like another half measure. Now a half measure may be all that is available now, but I don't want to be saddled with that same half-measure for next year. Skinner + Allen doesn't feel like a Stanley Cup tandem to me.

I think the Habs would definitely be open to retaining salary or taking on a contract that doesnt have too much term and is a positive presence in the locker room. Both you guys seems to have a better handle on the Oilers than me (im going on a "the athletic" article and a few other sources), so i it interesting that you differ in opinion as to who of Petrov and Bourgault is unavailable to the habs in this type of trade.

I am curious on Petrov as he is apparently pure offense, which is something i dont see on the habs. Bourgault seems like a well adjusted TWF, which we have a few, like Suzuki and Beck.

Sounds to me like you both agree to some extent that there are starters for disussions, but htat there are a lot of considerations and tweeks needed.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Oilers just need a goalie who is good enough. Look at Darcy Kuemper? Or Hill last year? Billington one year. Edmonton have all the other parts. A big name like Gibson going to cost a bundle plus he has two years left at 6million. Going to hurt going forward with Drai and McDavid need reupping in few years.

I like to see Oilers win a cup or at least get to Finals. Canadian team plus I am sick of hearing how you can't win with a McDavid or Matthews. Those antitank guys always perch that.

Maybe Acquire depth for a 3rd and go with three goalies. Out of them one should get hot during playoffs.

They might even have that guy in Skinner, as long as they don't ride him too hard. What the Oilers really need, is a veteran who can step in if Skinner gets injured or falters in the playoffs.

 

[bucks_oil]

FINALLY!
The other shoe has dropped!!

bern is vilified for speaking truth as to how crippling Oil cap situation is, but NOW
now we see an admission creating cap would be "require{d}".

I invited discussion about what else could be done to get meaningful cap, but ZERO constructive replies were submitted.

I do not intend to comment further in this thread, though I reserve my right to do so if necessary.

Let's see what 'in a vacuum' pure G deals this thread generates.
Let's see what cap moves, if any, can be offered to help.

As ever, I leave you all without rancor and in the spirit of HONEST promotion of competition of ideas

What on earth are you on about now. Everyone and their dog knows the Oilers need to create cap space.

RETAINING $4.6M annually to rid yourself of your #2 defenseman, only to have to replace him does not CREATE cap space... it CRATERS it. I don't know why you are loath to admit that... are your math skills that poor?

Very simply: $4.6M Nurse retention + replacing Nurse on the roster >>> $9.25M current Nurse cap hit.

You cannot get a #2 defenseman for $4.6M... and even if you assume Nurse is just a #3 (he's not playing like one, but whatever), even then a #3D are typically in the $4.5M to $5.5M range unless they are still on ELC (and those guys don't move).

So where is the cap savings Bern?