Goalie controversy thread

[DeuceNine]

I don't like how frequently he loses his cool on the ice and I don't share the broadcast crew's opinion that the team feeds off it.

With that said, I think it is very tenuous to compare on-ice tempers to off ice concerns. He has been playing in our organization for almost a decade and had been in the NHL locker room for 2 and a half years before signing an extension. That time would have shed substantially more light on his off-ice demeanor and potential red flags than his on-ice temper. What I think you are alluding to is that his temper may lead to violence and criminal charges. Speaking bluntly, an off-ice act of violence offers the team an easy out purely from a "player as an investment" point of view. Voynov had his deal terminated after his DV plea. To be clear, I don't think anyone is expecting that or hoping for that. I also don't think that his on-ice temper is predictive of off-ice violence. But I also don't think that Binner potentially getting violent off ice (after 28+ years of not doing so) is a real investment concern.

This. And really, who else do we talk about like this? Goalies get the focus in every situation because there are so few of them. We aren't having this conversation when David Perron leads the team in PM (hypothetically). It's just dumb and overblown but hey, Blues fans and goaltending amirite

 

[TruBlu]

There are actually people installing a #1 goaltender who hasn't even won a road game this year. A lot of hate for our legendary Cup winner of 31 months ago though, so you know the takes are hot and fresh.

Binny didn't win the cup, the team did. He's no longer a sample size. He is what he is; an average goalie in the league making superstar dollars/term. This is one of the few times I'm critical of a decision DA made, but it seems he followed the mindset of a few on here that since he was the goalie when we won the cup he's automatically due a big raise and contract...even if it hamstrings the team before that contract is even halfway over....

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Binny didn't win the cup, the team did. He's no longer a sample size. He is what he is; an average goalie in the league making superstar dollars/term. This is one of the few times I'm critical of a decision DA made, but it seems he followed the mindset of a few on here that since he was the goalie when we won the cup he's automatically due a big raise and contract...even if it hamstrings the team before that contract is even halfway over....

I wouldn't call his contract superstar level. Overpaid starter sure. But not superstar. If you want to see a superstar contract look at Price, Bob, or Vasy. The biggest issue with Binnington is contract length tho.

 

[Reality Czech]

Binny didn't win the cup, the team did. He's no longer a sample size. He is what he is; an average goalie in the league making superstar dollars/term. This is one of the few times I'm critical of a decision DA made, but it seems he followed the mindset of a few on here that since he was the goalie when we won the cup he's automatically due a big raise and contract...even if it hamstrings the team before that contract is even halfway over....

Binnington was a big reason we won the Cup, that can't be disputed. Obviously he deserved some kind of raise considering he was making league minimum up to that point, the question is how much money did he deserve and who would we have replaced him with if we had let Binnington walk. Hindsight is 20/20 but I don't think there are many GMs who would play hardball with the guy who just helped your team win a championship.

Brian made a good point that we didn't have to give him a 2-year deal, and the timing of that put us in a tough spot. However in what world is $6 million for a goalie "superstar money?" That puts him in line with guys like Markstrom, Grubauer, Matt Murray, etc. Josh Gibson and Hellebuyck are also in the same range but I think most people would consider them team-friendly deals and that they would get much more money on the open market. If you drop down to $5 million AAV you get into guys like Varlamov, Lehner, and Ullmark and other guys who don't seem to be much better options than Binnington. Sure, there are a few bargains like Freddy Anderson @ $4.5 million but those deals are the exception rather than the rule.

Signing Binner to that deal was a gamble like any significant signing, but I find it a little offensive that some fans seem to want to diminish his role in our Cup win just because his performance these days isn't as good as we had hoped for. For those who think signing Binner to that extension was a mistake, what would have been your plan B?

 

[joe galiba]

only the very few superstar caliber goalies are consistently good year after year
the rest of them seem to have much wider variations year to year, and even month to month
it is what separates them
very similar to closers in baseball

 

[Brian39]

For those who think signing Binner to that extension was a mistake, what would have been your plan B?

As you mentioned earlier in the comment, I'm very critical of how we got to the point where there wasn't a viable plan B. I wouldn't have put myself in that position if I was in charge.

However, if I had taken over after we were in that position then I would have signed Binner to the existing deal rather than trading him or letting him walk. I wasn't willing to go into UFA needing to acquire a starter without having a proven 1B in the organization. Grubauer got essentially the same deal we gave Binner ($5.9M AAV and very similar trade protection on a 6 year deal). Ullmark got 4 years at $5M AAV and more robust movement protection. The lower cost/term options ($2-$4.5M AAV over 1-3 years) were Holtby, Andersen, Mrazek, Raanta, Reimer, Bernier, Brossoit, Driedger, and Jones. Without the benefit of hindsight I don't think anyone could say that they thought anyone in that group would give this current Blues team as good of a chance at a Cup as Binner. With the benefit of hindsight, I think you can only make an argument for Freddy and maybe Holtby. But both of them were coming off back-to-back down years from their former ability (with the most recent year seeing them well below league-average). I don't think we could have predicted that Nedeljkovic was going to be available and I don't think it is fair to say Army should have entered the summer banking on landing another team's RFA starter in a trade.

There wasn't a safe/pleasant plan B to meeting Binner's contract demands once we got to the middle of last season and he was playing like a legitimate starter for the 3rd straight year. There is absolutely value to a guy who can put up a slightly-above-average performance with a 55-60 start workload. None of the available options to us in the UFA market were good bets to provide 50+ starts of decent-to-good goaltending. And with Husso's struggles last year, we couldn't sign a guy who couldn't comfortably handle such a workload. For all of his upside, we couldn't have entered this year banking on Husso to give us 32+ starts.

My take at the time of the extension signing was that I was happy we had Binner on the roster for the next few years, but that I hated the contract it required. I hate how we got ourselves into a situation without a viable plan B. But since it was 100% our own doing, the lack of a plan B doesn't make the extension any better.

 

[Reality Czech]

As you mentioned earlier in the comment, I'm very critical of how we got to the point where there wasn't a viable plan B. I wouldn't have put myself in that position if I was in charge.

However, if I had taken over after we were in that position then I would have signed Binner to the existing deal rather than trading him or letting him walk. I wasn't willing to go into UFA needing to acquire a starter without having a proven 1B in the organization. Grubauer got essentially the same deal we gave Binner ($5.9M AAV and very similar trade protection on a 6 year deal). Ullmark got 4 years at $5M AAV and more robust movement protection. The lower cost/term options ($2-$4.5M AAV over 1-3 years) were Holtby, Andersen, Mrazek, Raanta, Reimer, Bernier, Brossoit, Driedger, and Jones. Without the benefit of hindsight I don't think anyone could say that they thought anyone in that group would give this current Blues team as good of a chance at a Cup as Binner. With the benefit of hindsight, I think you can only make an argument for Freddy and maybe Holtby. But both of them were coming off back-to-back down years from their former ability (with the most recent year seeing them well below league-average). I don't think we could have predicted that Nedeljkovic was going to be available and I don't think it is fair to say Army should have entered the summer banking on landing another team's RFA starter in a trade.

There wasn't a safe/pleasant plan B to meeting Binner's contract demands once we got to the middle of last season and he was playing like a legitimate starter for the 3rd straight year. There is absolutely value to a guy who can put up a slightly-above-average performance with a 55-60 start workload. None of the available options to us in the UFA market were good bets to provide 50+ starts of decent-to-good goaltending. And with Husso's struggles last year, we couldn't sign a guy who couldn't comfortably handle such a workload. For all of his upside, we couldn't have entered this year banking on Husso to give us 32+ starts.

My take at the time of the extension signing was that I was happy we had Binner on the roster for the next few years, but that I hated the contract it required. I hate how we got ourselves into a situation without a viable plan B. But since it was 100% our own doing, the lack of a plan B doesn't make the extension any better.

That's a fair assessment. Most of the recent UFA goalies signed shorter-term deals, but none of them have been difference makers outside of Andersen. It's always a crapshoot with goalies so most teams would much rather develop from within and find a long-term solution. In hindsight, if Binner had gone elsewhere there would have been plenty of potential replacements but I can see why the front office would want to lock down the guy who became a local hero during the Cup run. They could have gone about it in a much different way, though.

I get what you're saying about not having a plan B last year, although I'm thinking back to how Binnington himself was the plan B (or plan D or E) while Allen was here. They had to move Allen to free up salary and fully hand the reins to Binner and I didn't have a problem going with Husso as the backup last year. With the disrupted season we didn't really get a good chance to see his potential, but last year was tough to truly assess either Husso or Binnington. I'm not sure what realistic plan B would have made sense, but as mentioned earlier they kind of forced their hand with the prior 2-year deal.

People can debate if that was the right call at the time, but I feel it made sense at the time (most articles I can find seem to agree). The problem was we didn't really get to find out 100% if Binner was truly a top-tier starter during that 2-year window. Him and the rest of the team looked great pre-covid and then everyone stunk in the bubble. Then last year was somewhat inconsistent and Army had to either put his chips on Binnington or risk the unknown. I'm sure all of us would have preferred lower money and years but who knows how hard Binner's side was pushing to test the market. It was always gonna be a gamble but from a franchise perspective it's hard to let Binnington walk while the team is still competing for a Cup.

 

[Stealth JD]

16 Stats: Doughty's dominance, Panthers purring, and actual All-Stars

9. Another night, another impressive performance for Ville Husso saving 1.53 goals above expected against Nashville on Monday. That brings his total up to 8.86 on the year in just 10 games of action. He’s been on another level this season. Jordan Binnington, on the other hand, has not. While Husso ranks 11th in the league in goals saved above expected (and even higher on a per game basis), Binnington ranks 65th, allowing 3.41 goals more than expected in 22 games.
Goaltending controversy? Maybe. It’s getting harder to justify continuously throwing Binnington out there every night when he simply hasn’t been the better goalie this season by a wide margin. My goalie model is very stubborn and still views Binnington as the better option thanks to his track record, but the gap is shrinking with each passing game. Before the season started it was a gaping chasm after a weak rookie season by Husso, but he’s completely redeemed himself so far with his first 10 games of the season.
I’m not sure how much of this Husso can keep up, but for now he’s given Binnington some healthy competition between the pipes and that can only be a good thing for both goalies and the team.

 

[Xerloris]

We should trade Husso for Allen so Binnington has a backup he likes better.

 

[Joshuar56]

16 Stats: Doughty's dominance, Panthers purring, and actual All-Stars

But... but the team just looks like it plays better defense when Husso plays...

 

[TheDizee]

the "husso cant win road games" talking point can officially be eliminated

binner is in trouble, other goalies playin good while he stinks the joint up

 

[Zachary Hines]

2 of Husso's loses this year came in Florida and TB. Both tough places to play with a team that had been hit with covid and injuries. The one game he lost in a shootout and faced 50 ish shots in that game. He has improved significantly from last year.

 

[Zachary Hines]

His contract is one heck of an anchor so no chance a team is gonna claim him. The only way to lose him would be a buyout or a trade with retained salary.

I hear Edmonton needs a goalie

 

[AjaxManifesto]

Everyone needs to calm down. Husso is hot right now while Binny is struggling.

Last year I remember folks bitching about Husso always letting in the 1st shot.

Things can change quickly over time.

We will need Binny if Husso goes cold. We will need Chucky if one of the two gets hurt.

Lots can happen.

 

[Bluesguru]

Men at work ——- Husso can it be now

Ville says…………. Who can it be knocking at my door? Go 'way, don't come 'round here no more…………

 

[Ranksu]

Everyone needs to calm down. Husso is hot right now while Binny is struggling.

Last year I remember folks bitching about Husso always letting in the 1st shot.

Things can change quickly over time.

We will need Binny if Husso goes cold. We will need Chucky if one of the two gets hurt.

Lots can happen.

Difference between previous years on Husso is Husso that had take steps and improve his game.

 

[Hinterland]

Everyone needs to calm down. Husso is hot right now while Binny is struggling.

Last year I remember folks bitching about Husso always letting in the 1st shot.

Things can change quickly over time.

We will need Binny if Husso goes cold. We will need Chucky if one of the two gets hurt.

Lots can happen.

Binnington certainly won't get any better if they continue like this. I'd say give him more practice and less game time. Maybe that helps to clean up technique, bad habits etc. It helped other goalies (eg Allen) before. If it doesn't help Binnington, I think the Blues should try to lose him. He hasn't been good since winning the cup and got outperformed even by AHL journeymen. He got his contract based on only one good season and at some point, there's just no credit left.

 

[Reality Czech]

Man, Husso just keeps impressing with every start. Let's be honest, is there any chance that he's back on the Blues next year? Binnington has a NTC, so can't imagine moving him would even be possible and if Husso continues playing like this he absolutely deserves a chance to start somewhere. I know it's still a small sample size but I just feel like he's the real deal.

 

[centipede2233]

Neutral fan here, I like a lot of the moves DA made, binnington contract isn’t one of them.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

I hear Edmonton needs a goalie

but not the cap space

 

[WATTAGE4451]

Man, Husso just keeps impressing with every start. Let's be honest, is there any chance that he's back on the Blues next year? Binnington has a NTC, so can't imagine moving him would even be possible and if Husso continues playing like this he absolutely deserves a chance to start somewhere. I know it's still a small sample size but I just feel like he's the real deal.

hussos i small sample size so i cant see him being giving an outright starting job elsewhere next year. Many places will be willing to let him 1a with an exprienced backup 1b who can be a starter if he falters, but he may have a chance at being same situation for us next year

 

[Joshuar56]

hussos i small sample size so i cant see him being giving an outright starting job elsewhere next year. Many places will be willing to let him 1a with an exprienced backup 1b who can be a starter if he falters, but he may have a chance at being same situation for us next year

Isn't this the same thing people kept saying about Binnington and Allen?

 

[Hinterland]

Man, Husso just keeps impressing with every start. Let's be honest, is there any chance that he's back on the Blues next year? Binnington has a NTC, so can't imagine moving him would even be possible and if Husso continues playing like this he absolutely deserves a chance to start somewhere. I know it's still a small sample size but I just feel like he's the real deal.

The Blues are winning now so I think it's up to Binnington. Should he continue to stink I think the Blues will consider a buyout. That would reduce his cap hit to 2,13 millions the next season and 633k the two following seasons until 2025. That's a nice window to win. Binnington's NTC is also modified from 2024 so that might get him to cooperate if the Blues can find a deal while retaining salary. I don't think a team would be willing his full anchor of a contract unless the Blues agree to take another bad contract in return.

But I agree. Husso is due for a raise and I'm not sure the Blues necessarily want to spend that much on goaltending.

 

[Stealth JD]

Blues have never bought anyone out. I can’t imagine it starts with Binny. He’ll just be a high paid backup until he gets right.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

The Blues are winning now so I think it's up to Binnington. Should he continue to stink I think the Blues will consider a buyout. That would reduce his cap hit to 2,13 millions the next season and 633k the two following seasons until 2025. That's a nice window to win. Binnington's NTC is also modified from 2024 so that might get him to cooperate if the Blues can find a deal while retaining salary. I don't think a team would be willing his full anchor of a contract unless the Blues agree to take another bad contract in return.

But I agree. Husso is due for a raise and I'm not sure the Blues necessarily want to spend that much on goaltending.

0 % chance of buyout