Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part VIII

[coladin]

I saw it much differently. The first 8 years of Karlsson's career were so outstanding because he had the best first step in the game. He depended on it. It allowed him to beat forwards out of his own end and start the transition, or catch back up to them when he pinched on offense. It was McDavid-esque.

After that surgery, that first step went away. He no longer had it. The advantage he had over almost every other player was mitigated. He couldn't start the transition as fast, and he couldn't get back to cover as fast either. It was a disaster for him.

He's spent the last few years basically redefining his game, and it's been a struggle. Last year was probably the best we'll see. Now he's a good 2nd pairing guy who'll be able to score ~50 points QBing the PP, but he plays a completely different way. It's a shame, because before that surgery, he was a top 5 player in the world.

I don't think it had anything to do with effort, conditioning or commitment.

Was there ego and frustration involved? You bet. The guy was used to being able to do whatever he wanted on the ice, and overnight, that ability was gone. You can bet that was hard for him to deal with. It boiled over and blew up towards the end of the season, and things ended the way they did. He acted like a superstar in a season where he was no longer able to perform like a superstar.

But he put his body on the line to give this franchise everything over 8 seasons, so I'm not going to sit here and slander him or say he had no character. He showed the type of character everyone wants to see from players. Leafs fans would kill to have Matthews, Marner or Tavares put in the same type of effort that Karlsson did in every single playoff game he played.

I'm thrilled with the return, and it was time to move on, but let's be real. The guy was a warrior for us. I pay to watch guys like him play. I could give two-shits about the Pierre Dorion's of the hockey world.

But I guess that's what fans do. It's easiest to blame effort. If Auston Matthews breaks his wrist this summer and loses 5mph off his snapshot and struggles to adapt, people will probably say he's just milking it. But the truth is, the margin between being a superstar and just a regular guy is razor thin. Sometimes injuries can close it real fast.

I can live with this, totally understandable.

I , like you, loved the great years he put in. But for me to “slander” him, is a little unfair. I simply feel that that last season, he did not put in the effort required and while he may have had less mobility, for me, that does not get him off the hook.

Erik Karlsson was not only a gifted skater, but extremely clever. He is a smart player and with his skating makes him dangerous. This guy just didn’t think the game, want to think the game , and frankly care enough. Now if that is slander, then fine. But many share that opinion and it is always hard to see your stars disintegrate in front of your eyes

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That 2017-2018 season is by far the worst season I have ever watched. The team was clearly way better than what they represented. And Karlsson shared a big part of that. I couldn’t believe how many times he left a guy wide open for a tap-in. Like, how many tap-ins did Andy have to suffer that year? Craig and I shared drinks on a few occasions and , we were both feelin’ it. I usually don’t talk hockey at charity events, but we have chatted before and he spotted me out of the room, as we are car guys. He would love you, Ice!

Anyways , I think it was the fall of 2018, after the trade of Karlsson. I think it was a charity downtown and we were chatting all night. I think I casually brought up the change for this season without Karlsson and he told me “looking forward to cutting down on the tap-ins” , and I think he threw me a number, like, 37 or something.

Andy looked as bad as anyone that year, if not worse, and him and Condon should be pointed to as one of the main reasons for the collapse. Neither ever played well again in the league either.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Yep, imagine that, a GM is judged on his "results". That shouldn't be a foreign concept.

Duchene was a rental (a little longer than a TDL rental for a player on his last year of his contract). Did we achieve the great success that was imagined when acquiring Duchene and trading away those assets? Were we not reversing course and rebuilding just 1 1/2 years later? You have to hope your GM understands the relative merit of the team versus its competitors and makes decisions accordingly. Everything is relative, so replacing a player with a slightly better one is far less significant than completely misjudging the team.

Looking back is such a big piece of the puzzle when assessing trades. Not just from the development of assets, but how things worked out in general like they did with Duchene. It's why Dorion gets so much credit for the Karlsson trade and less so on some others that didn't work out as well like Zibanejad or Duchene.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Andy looked as bad as anyone that year, if not worse, and him and Condon should be pointed to as one of the main reasons for the collapse. Neither ever played well again in the league either.

Maybe not to the same high standards he set for himself through his career, but Andy had a 17-12-2 record and a .897 sv% this year as a 41-year-old behind the Buffalo Sabres defence. It's not elite play but it's damn better than I think most would have expected. I'd qualify it as playing well.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Maybe not to the same high standards he set for himself through his career, but Andy had a 17-12-2 record and a .897 sv% this year as a 41-year-old behind the Buffalo Sabres defence. It's not elite play but it's damn better than I think most would have expected. I'd qualify it as playing well.

I paused because of that, but the numbers are still fairly pedestrian, so I'd call it good in the context of helping a rebuilding team not collapse, but out of that difference maker territory.

I was never a big Andy fan in general, so maybe my bias is showing.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I understand lucky, but I’m not sure we need to feel greatfull. I mean he was drafted by the team, was king of the city, and made millions of dollars playing a game. If we’re talking about lucky, it’s him, not us. I get the sentiment, but I think he made out ok given all of those circumstances. Now that time has passed I think it’s ok to be honest about the full story about his time here. It’s not anything bad, but he was our Pavel Bure talent-wise, crazy awesome memories, but it’s good for everyone that we moved on when we did.

I liked your post, but I think the lesson is more that we as fans need to be patient and let the young players develop before we decide whether trades are ‘good’ or ‘bad’. Very few trades, like drafts, can be reasonably evaluated the day they happen. We do it because we are rabid fans, but we should also understand in the back of our heads that it’s unreasonable to do so and accept that our hot takes are likely wrong.

Well in the end we can all feel however we want to feel even though we do our best to tell each other otherwise. Some people are drawn to guys like Andy, Stone etc. and some are drawn more to guys like Karlsson, Hoffman, etc. Nothing wrong with either. I find myself a lot more drawn to the latter and probably give them more leeway than other players.

Fair point with the 2nd paragraph, but I don't think that's possible in pro sports. I follow multiple sports forums and frankly, this happens everywhere I've been. Same goes for hockey discussion I have or overhear in person. It's human nature to rush to judgement. Some work out, some don't and the Karlsson one did, so that's great.

 

[JD1]

You guys are nuts. Trade analysis aside, the guy leads a team within one goal of the finals that had no business being there, destroys his ankle and career as a superstar to do so, then comes back to a depleted roster without a decent D partner to work with, and visibly struggles physically. Guy looked like he could barely skate when he came back and I find any claim otherwise absurd. There was poor decision making as well that seemed to increase as the year went on, but you're a player playing a certain way no longer capable of doing it, that's not an easy adjustment. Injuries make a lot of players fall off a cliff. I understand some of these perspectives about the drama between their wives blowing up, but I can't imagine holding Karlsson accountable for not being able to continue to carry handicapped rosters on a bum leg. Reality is that he played on a budget team most of his career and we're lucky he was able to be a part of it and help prop it up to a bubble team that eventually went on a cinderella run.

We got his best and most valuable years at least and the return is obviously excellent at this point. Deep down we all just wanted Stutzle and Norris type players over standard stuff like the other pieces and the anger was over that not appearing to be the likelihood initially. It's a lot easier to identify with that now that the players are real people and developed in to what they are.

Visibly struggling when he returned? No sir, that was not a commonly held opinion on this board.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Visibly struggling when he returned? No sir, that was not a commonly held opinion on this board.

Well then whoever you're referencing was wrong. He looked like he could barely skate compared to what we saw prior. Are you trying to tell me that everyone thought Karlsson was playing well that year?

Other than maybe goaltending, I saw no bigger thing contributing to the collapse than his game falling off a cliff combined with losing our other best D man.

 

[JD1]

Well then whoever you're referencing was wrong. He looked like he could barely skate compared to what we saw prior. Are you trying to tell me that everyone thought Karlsson was playing well that year?

Other than maybe goaltending, I saw no bigger thing contributing to the collapse than his game falling off a cliff combined with losing our other best D man.

I was referencing the consensus opinion at the time

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I was referencing the consensus opinion at the time

Fair enough. I find that surprising considering what I saw out there. I remember him barely being able to pivot anymore and not catching up to guys like he used to be able to.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

That last year was awful from karlsson lol. Like it was truly atrocious. But. Shit was going on off ice. And Boucher was a dumbass.

 

[Micklebot]

I was referencing the consensus opinion at the time

Here's a thread from at the time

Is this the new 2013-14 for Karlsson?

Only time I can recall such a bad +\- from EK was in 13-14 right after his achilles tendon. I know that stat is usually suspect but I get the impression that EK, both times coming back from a serious injury, want's to become his "normal dynamic self" so badly that he sacrifices some defense...

hfboards.mandatory.com

Idk about you, but at least in that thread, the consensus seems to be he's still labouring.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

That last year was awful from karlsson lol. Like it was truly atrocious. But. Shit was going on off ice. And Boucher was a dumbass.

And he lost his long time partner for a guy that that was more of a 6/7 at that point.

We effectively lost our top pairing of an already thin D core that year.

 

[JD1]

Here's a thread from at the time

Is this the new 2013-14 for Karlsson?

Only time I can recall such a bad +\- from EK was in 13-14 right after his achilles tendon. I know that stat is usually suspect but I get the impression that EK, both times coming back from a serious injury, want's to become his "normal dynamic self" so badly that he sacrifices some defense...

hfboards.mandatory.com

Idk about you, but at least in that thread, the consensus seems to be he's still labouring.

I think that was very early in his return. He didn't look good, at least to me, at any point that season but IIRC people felt he'd recovered. Him not having recovered was why I was quite fine moving on from him in the summer of 2018.

 

[Ice-Tray]

That 2017-2018 season is by far the worst season I have ever watched. The team was clearly way better than what they represented. And Karlsson shared a big part of that. I couldn’t believe how many times he left a guy wide open for a tap-in. Like, how many tap-ins did Andy have to suffer that year? Craig and I shared drinks on a few occasions and , we were both feelin’ it. I usually don’t talk hockey at charity events, but we have chatted before and he spotted me out of the room, as we are car guys. He would love you, Ice!

Anyways , I think it was the fall of 2018, after the trade of Karlsson. I think it was a charity downtown and we were chatting all night. I think I casually brought up the change for this season without Karlsson and he told me “looking forward to cutting down on the tap-ins” , and I think he threw me a number, like, 37 or something.

I always thought Andy was a pretty cool cat, and he gave us some of the finest single game/player memories in my opinion. Great stories once again man, thanks!

 

[L'Aveuglette]

This is why I was so pissed at EK that last season. He’s the f***ing captain of our NHL team paid millions to be a leader and a professional, and instead he divided the dressing room over some petty off ice relationship bullshit, and set his own practice schedule and work ethic outside of the rest of the team.

Just an abysmal example of leadership and dedication to the team, and it contributed directly to the collapse of the season and dismantling of the team.

No wonder Dorion burned it all to the ground and built it up based on character and work ethic; not again.

L.M.A.O.

Just cringe take after cringe take.

 

[Ice-Tray]

L.M.A.O.

Just cringe take after cringe take.

I’m ok with you not agreeing with me. When a post of mine makes you cringe, it means I’m on the right track. Cheers buddy!

 

[Knave]

I thought we were a fanbase and not a cult. My mistake.

 

[Micklebot]

I think that was very early in his return. He didn't look good, at least to me, at any point that season but IIRC people felt he'd recovered. Him not having recovered was why I was quite fine moving on from him in the summer of 2018.

Well, we were discussing making the move for Duchene, and whether or not around the time of that trade Karlsson was visibly struggling when he returned, or at least that's what I understood. the thread I posted was made about 3 weeks after the trade for Duchene (15 games into Karlsson's return) so seems to be a good representation of the consensus at that time. If memory serves, Karlsson's skating started looking better after Christmas in the new year. That gave people hope that he'd be back closer to normal going forward and impacted their feelings as to whether a trade was warranted. Turns out Karlsson declined pretty quickly (or people were incorrect that he looked like he was skating better after xmas), and trading him was the right move but that's a different conversation.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

This is why I was so pissed at EK that last season. He’s the f***ing captain of our NHL team paid millions to be a leader and a professional, and instead he divided the dressing room over some petty off ice relationship bullshit, and set his own practice schedule and work ethic outside of the rest of the team.

Just an abysmal example of leadership and dedication to the team, and it contributed directly to the collapse of the season and dismantling of the team.

No wonder Dorion burned it all to the ground and built it up based on character and work ethic; not again.

wait are you talking about the captain who single handedly dragged the lotto team into the playoffs while injured and proceeded to give us the most dominant playoff performance on one leg in order to try and get Ottawa a cup.

A feat that basically left his career ruined. That is the player you are talking about not being a leader and not having character?

uh okay sure

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Just passed EK65 on the highway.

 

[OD99]

That 2017-2018 season is by far the worst season I have ever watched. The team was clearly way better than what they represented. And Karlsson shared a big part of that. I couldn’t believe how many times he left a guy wide open for a tap-in. Like, how many tap-ins did Andy have to suffer that year? Craig and I shared drinks on a few occasions and , we were both feelin’ it. I usually don’t talk hockey at charity events, but we have chatted before and he spotted me out of the room, as we are car guys. He would love you, Ice!

Anyways , I think it was the fall of 2018, after the trade of Karlsson. I think it was a charity downtown and we were chatting all night. I think I casually brought up the change for this season without Karlsson and he told me “looking forward to cutting down on the tap-ins” , and I think he threw me a number, like, 37 or something.

Trashing the character of a player by saying he was out of shape and didn't care and supporting it by quoting a goalie trashing the best D he would ever had in front of him is quite the mental gymnastics.

I bet Craig would have missed all the goals created by Karlsson as well and all the single handed zone exits.

That run in 2017 was smoke and mirrors and people paying attention knew it.

We had the 12th fewest goals for in the Eastern Conference (22nd in the league) and the 10th worst goal differential in the conference (18th in league).

Nothing pointed to that run as we were carried all season by Karlsson (who had to come back late in the season to get us there) and Andy.

The playoffs were some of the most exciting games I have been to but even being in the building you knew we were getting fortunate with incredibly well timed goals, etc...

Karlsson went God mode (and PPG) and a resurgent Bobby Ryan along with his buddy Clarkie and Andy again being great helped us get to 2OT in game 7.

Only blind optimism had some people believing we were legit Cup contenders. I think we would have beaten the Preds but it was lightning in a bottle. I went to every playoff game and it was amazing but I knew the overall team wasn't as good as the record.

The following season was destined to be worse and it was.

 

[OD99]

Before the Duchene trade we were pacing at .600, or a 99pt pace over a 82 game season. That's a playoff team every year except this year in the EC.

No we weren't...we had 6 wins, 4 losses and like 6 OT losses...that is well below .500

That team didn't look good outside 1 game in Sweden I think.

Many people saw the team and knew it was going to be bad based on the previous year and how they started the year.

 

[aragorn]

Trashing the character of a player by saying he was out of shape and didn't care and supporting it by quoting a goalie trashing the best D he would ever had in front of him is quite the mental gymnastics.

I bet Craig would have missed all the goals created by Karlsson as well and all the single handed zone exits.

That run in 2017 was smoke and mirrors and people paying attention knew it.

We had the 12th fewest goals for in the Eastern Conference (22nd in the league) and the 10th worst goal differential in the conference (18th in league).

Nothing pointed to that run as we were carried all season by Karlsson (who had to come back late in the season to get us there) and Andy.

The playoffs were some of the most exciting games I have been to but even being in the building you knew we were getting fortunate with incredibly well timed goals, etc...

Karlsson went God mode (and PPG) and a resurgent Bobby Ryan along with his buddy Clarkie and Andy again being great helped us get to 2OT in game 7.

Only blind optimism had some people believing we were legit Cup contenders. I think we would have beaten the Preds but it was lightning in a bottle. I went to every playoff game and it was amazing but I knew the overall team wasn't as good as the record.

The following season was destined to be worse and it was.

It's understandable that goalies would care more about the team playing good defensively & care much less about how they do offensively although you have to score to win.

 

[OD99]

It's understandable that goalies would care more about the team playing good defensively & care much less about how they do offensively although you have to score to win.

The point is Karlsson was the best D and best player we had so it's odd to pick him out.

Craig had plenty to worry about for his own game.