Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part VIII

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

I think both ways of evaluating a trade have merit. If I trade Sidney Crosby for a 2nd round pick, it doesn't matter that I somehow draft the next gretzky with that pick, or that Crosby throws out his back picking up groceries the next game, that wasn't getting max value. But, it's results oriented business, so obviously results are important too.

Picks, especially later round ones, definitely throw a wrinkle in it.

But I'll give Dorion and the staff full credit for identifying Norris. I won't chalk that up to luck.

Norris was only unknown because he was picked by San Jose out of the USNDT. He got no coverage because no one in Canada cares what SJ does. But he was an equivalent prospect to guys like Suzuki and Robert Thomas, who would have been considered "big gets" if they had been the return, at the time of the trade.

 

[Micklebot]

But I'll give Dorion and the staff full credit for identifying Norris. I won't chalk that up to luck.

I mean, after we acquired him, Mann said he thought he'd be a third liner, but he'd played well enough that he thought he had top 6 potential or something to that effect. It's hard to know for sure what they thought they were getting with Norris, but I suspect they are pleasantly surprised with his progress

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

I mean, after we acquired him, Mann said he thought he'd be a third liner, but he'd played well enough that he thought he had top 6 potential or something to that effect. It's hard to know for sure what they thought they were getting with Norris, but I suspect they are pleasantly surprised with his progress

They probably weren't expecting a close to 50-goal pace from him, so they're for sure thrilled. But even when he was drafted, he was projected to be a very good middle-6 center. I think the comparable they put for him at the draft was Ryan O'Reilly.

I'd probably say he would have been looked at as a similar calibre prospect as Shane Pinto was after last season.

And if we were trading Shane Pinto + 1st (not to mention the other stuff in the package) we'd consider that a big price. So receiving it should be looked at in a similar way.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I mean, after we acquired him, Mann said he thought he'd be a third liner, but he'd played well enough that he thought he had top 6 potential or something to that effect. It's hard to know for sure what they thought they were getting with Norris, but I suspect they are pleasantly surprised with his progress

Sure, he wasn’t a guy that Mann knew much about, but PD said he was essential to the trade so at least one of our chief prospect guys was gunning for him which is all it really takes thankfully.

They also had a lot more information on Norris than most teams since Brady was his childhood best friend so that’s a bonus.

 

[coladin]

people made that analysis at the time of the trade though. They looked at the team and said this isn't the team to be making a win now play, they questioned bringing in a center when the backend was clearly the issue.

Without the benefit of hindsight, was Duchene, a guy that had basically produced at Turris's rate, coming in really going to give life to the team when Turris was really well liked in the room? Hindsight tells us Duchene eventually found life and became a clear cut #1 center for us, but that was far from obvious with his 54 pts pace over his last 3 seasons in Colorado.

Stone was going to get better? At the time of the trade when it was pretty clear the team was struggling, he had 16 pts in 14 games and a +12. He had already taken his step forward when we made the trade, we weren't improving from him going forward, at least not relative to how that season started. Hoffman had 13 pts in 14 games, should we reasonably have expected him to put up more pts based on the trade to finish the season?

We were a team that relied heavily on Karlsson since 2011-12, we won and lost on his "fat", "lazy" play, so watching him labour around the rink and clearly not playing the way we needed him to if we wanted to win made it predictable we were going to have a rough season. How rough, who knows for sure, I wouldn't have guessed 2nd worst, but I also wouldn't have thought Duchene over Turris would have saved the season by any stretch.

People like who , Elliot Friedman?

Many analysts also felt that Ottawa getting Duchene was a clear upgrade. That was almost unanimous. No one said they were going to be a Stanley Cup contender. When they acquired Duchene, and their record at the time and all the OT losses (which means they were clearly in a lot of games), I don't think anyone here said they were going to miss the playoffs...let alone tank.

Karlsson was hindered with mental mistakes more than physical. I just find it comical how people think he was some role model and had unquestionable work ethic. The guy didn't want to practice and either quit or made slefish plays.

 

[coladin]

this I've been lurking for a while here, and it's amazing to me how some fans of this team will completely slander the players who've actually given this city something to cheer about to defend... Pierre Dorion?

Bizarre.

I don't have any hate for the man. He's made some good moves and some bad moves, but overall, there are good pieces and building blocks here. The future looks pretty good. He deserves credit for that.

But c'mon. Karlsson suffered two major injuries here, and because he played through the last one to try and win a cup, he's now a shell of his former self. The guy is the defenseman version of Peter Forsberg, who's revered in Colorado for all the shit he played through. He gave this team the best years of his career and made the sacrifices everyone wants "playoff players" to make.

But sure, Karlsson was fat and lazy.

You are more than welcome to lurk into that 2017-2018 season and find what I stated about Karlsson then. I was really hard on him because I saw how good he was, and how disinterested and careless he became. And he was out of shape. And he was out of shape last season in SJ, and was in much better shape this season, Shocker: he was better this year.

And I am not even defending Dorion. I just found it comical how Sakic got lucky but is a genius around here, but Dorion was lucky as well and he remains...lucky. I don't care about Dorion and he his far from perfect, right?

I am hard on stars. I expect them to be stars. Last year Chabot was shit, and I called him out. Most people around here will say how shit Josh Brown is, but the guy is f***ing Josh Brown, right? What do you expect? That is a little insight on how I view players. I expect a lot from the best players, more than I do from the J. Browns and Gambrells of the world

 

[coladin]

I'm sure it is. Just like it's easy with hindsight to see Karlsson dropping off.

Which is my point.

Take a look at the Karlsson trade at the time. 2x Norris winner, very recently carried a team to ECF.
Take a look at the Duchene trade at the time. Won literally nothing. Not a shot at Duchene here. A strong centerman. But he's not a 2x Selke winner or an Art Ross winner.

At best when you look at the returns at the time of those trades - the return is equal. Personally I'd say Colorado got more but fine, we'll call it equal.

What the hell kind of asset management is this? The organization salvaging the Karlsson trade with Norris panning out and getting lucky SJS imploded is not a reason to celebrate the initial trade. Or maybe we paid way too much for Duchene. I don't know but it's beyond me how anyone can try to claim the Duchene trade was a bit of a wash and we won the Karlsson trade. The way to simplify this is: did we pay too much for Duchene or did we get too little for Karlsson? It's more complex than that obviously but lets keep it simple.

Yes, Karlsson was more valuable than Duchene I will give you that. No argument there.

The organization, even without getting Stutzle, chose Norris and they are entitled to the accolades. Now, if they got lucky with Stutzle, so did Colorado with Byram, right? And if it wasn't Stutzle, and SJ simply ended middle of the pack, Ottawa was still in a position to get Jarvis, Holloway or Amirov (figuring Ottawa wanted a forward). And likewise, Colorado, if Ottawa simply ended middle of the pack, could have drafted York, Harley or Lassi Thomson (as they chose D, figuring they were looking for a D).

I never made the claim that the Duchene trade was a wash. I was simply stating that the Sakic Dorion stuff was irritating. Obviously, Duchene did not work out here, but I am happy they went for it, even though it was not successful.

 

[Yak]

Anyone post this yet?

Dam if we could get people fired, Dorion better watch out! Lol

Marketing Dept you know has been doing a top notch job.

Can't wait till we get more experience in that front office, not everyone is horrible but understaffed and in over their heads.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You are more than welcome to lurk into that 2017-2018 season and find what I stated about Karlsson then. I was really hard on him because I saw how good he was, and how disinterested and careless he became. And he was out of shape. And he was out of shape last season in SJ, and was in much better shape this season, Shocker: he was better this year.

And I am not even defending Dorion. I just found it comical how Sakic got lucky but is a genius around here, but Dorion was lucky as well and he remains...lucky. I don't care about Dorion and he his far from perfect, right?

I am hard on stars. I expect them to be stars. Last year Chabot was shit, and I called him out. Most people around here will say how shit Josh Brown is, but the guy is f***ing Josh Brown, right? What do you expect? That is a little insight on how I view players. I expect a lot from the best players, more than I do from the J. Browns and Gambrells of the world

This is why I was so pissed at EK that last season. He’s the f***ing captain of our NHL team paid millions to be a leader and a professional, and instead he divided the dressing room over some petty off ice relationship bullshit, and set his own practice schedule and work ethic outside of the rest of the team.

Just an abysmal example of leadership and dedication to the team, and it contributed directly to the collapse of the season and dismantling of the team.

No wonder Dorion burned it all to the ground and built it up based on character and work ethic; not again.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

This is why I was so pissed at EK that last season. He’s the f***ing captain of our NHL team paid millions to be a leader and a professional, and instead he divided the dressing room over some petty off ice relationship bullshit, and set his own practice schedule and work ethic outside of the rest of the team.

Just an abysmal example of leadership and dedication to the team, and it contributed directly to the collapse of the season and dismantling of the team.

No wonder Dorion burned it all to the ground and built it up based on character and work ethic; not again.

Shhhhh! Truth hurts. Go slow.

But I digress. It was apparent to some, and other later, but those who deny now… still?! It is ludicrous

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

You are more than welcome to lurk into that 2017-2018 season and find what I stated about Karlsson then. I was really hard on him because I saw how good he was, and how disinterested and careless he became. And he was out of shape. And he was out of shape last season in SJ, and was in much better shape this season, Shocker: he was better this year.

I saw it much differently. The first 8 years of Karlsson's career were so outstanding because he had the best first step in the game. He depended on it. It allowed him to beat forwards out of his own end and start the transition, or catch back up to them when he pinched on offense. It was McDavid-esque.

After that surgery, that first step went away. He no longer had it. The advantage he had over almost every other player was mitigated. He couldn't start the transition as fast, and he couldn't get back to cover as fast either. It was a disaster for him.

He's spent the last few years basically redefining his game, and it's been a struggle. Last year was probably the best we'll see. Now he's a good 2nd pairing guy who'll be able to score ~50 points QBing the PP, but he plays a completely different way. It's a shame, because before that surgery, he was a top 5 player in the world.

I don't think it had anything to do with effort, conditioning or commitment.

Was there ego and frustration involved? You bet. The guy was used to being able to do whatever he wanted on the ice, and overnight, that ability was gone. You can bet that was hard for him to deal with. It boiled over and blew up towards the end of the season, and things ended the way they did. He acted like a superstar in a season where he was no longer able to perform like a superstar.

But he put his body on the line to give this franchise everything over 8 seasons, so I'm not going to sit here and slander him or say he had no character. He showed the type of character everyone wants to see from players. Leafs fans would kill to have Matthews, Marner or Tavares put in the same type of effort that Karlsson did in every single playoff game he played.

I'm thrilled with the return, and it was time to move on, but let's be real. The guy was a warrior for us. I pay to watch guys like him play. I could give two-shits about the Pierre Dorion's of the hockey world.

But I guess that's what fans do. It's easiest to blame effort. If Auston Matthews breaks his wrist this summer and loses 5mph off his snapshot and struggles to adapt, people will probably say he's just milking it. But the truth is, the margin between being a superstar and just a regular guy is razor thin. Sometimes injuries can close it real fast.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Shhhhh! Truth hurts. Go slow.

But I digress. It was apparent to some, and other later, but those who deny now… still?! It is ludicrous

I hear that. I mean we have a bunch of guys that were on the team who have given some pretty candid statements over the years.

EK was an amazing player for us, and amazing talent, game changing player, who gave us some of our finest individual franchise moments, but he also had warts to his game, and issues with his leadership of the team culminating with its complete lockeroom collapse.

Gotta take the good with the bad when remembering players. He’s definitely ring of honour worthy, but he is also a cautionary tale of who should be made the captain of the team.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

I think it's possible to believe both that EK had his issues and that the trade didn't capitalize on his value at the time They're compatible ideas. I'd heard "rest is a weapon" was code for "EK didn't want to practice", though can't recall from where so take that with a massive grain of salt) so I hold no delusions that he was the poster child for work ethic. But even at that, we were all joking around about the "six assets" we traded for. Frankly, if Norris had been even half on our radar to achieve this level of play at this age, I'd be willing to bet the headlines would have included Norris' name at the forefront of those news releases.

(For the record, I'm not arguing we haven't won that trade. I think it's pretty clear we won it despite Dorion, not because of some master stroke on his behalf.)

 

[Ice-Tray]

I think it's possible to believe both that EK had his issues and that the trade didn't capitalize on his value at the time They're compatible ideas. I'd heard "rest is a weapon" was code for "EK didn't want to practice", though can't recall from where so take that with a massive grain of salt) so I hold no delusions that he was the poster child for work ethic. But even at that, we were all joking around about the "six assets" we traded for. Frankly, if Norris had been even half on our radar to achieve this level of play at this age, I'd be willing to bet the headlines would have included Norris' name at the forefront of those news releases.

(For the record, I'm not arguing we haven't won that trade. I think it's pretty clear we won it despite Dorion, not because of some master stroke on his behalf.)

Tie goes to the runner though. You give credit where it’s due because at the end of the day it’s like you said you don’t know what exactly what they thought about Norris, but does it matter?

We have heard that PD wanted him specifically, and Mann didn’t expect him to be this good. I don’t think anyone expected a number one centre and 30 goal man, but he was the targeted prospect so that really all that matters in the end.

The funny thing about people making fun of the 6 assets bit, was how wrong everyone was. It ended up being a pretty epic haul, more than most top players have commanded since even without Stu. You can bet other teams are looking for their own 6 assets now when trading a star. The problem is that the Eichel deal is closer to what you can regularly expect as opposed to the EK deal. We really did kill that deal beyond anyones expectations.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

Tie goes to the runner though. You give credit where it’s due because at the end of the day it’s like you said you don’t know what exactly what they thought about Norris, but does it matter?

We have heard that PD wanted him specifically, and Mann didn’t expect him to be this good. I don’t think anyone expected a number one centre and 30 goal man, but he was the targeted prospect so that really all that matters in the end.

The funny thing about people making fun of the 6 assets bit, was how wrong everyone was. It ended up being a pretty epic haul, more than most top players have commanded since even without Stu. You can bet other teams are looking for their own 6 assets now when trading a star. The problem is that the Eichel deal is closer to what you can regularly expect as opposed to the EK deal. We really did kill that deal beyond anyones expectations.

The Eichel deal was fantastic for Buffalo, and could get better depending on who they draft with that pick this summer.

The EK trade was great for Ottawa. Dorion deserves all the credit for it.

With that said, he completely blew the Stone trade and the Duchene to Columbus deal. If we had gotten a young top-6 forward or top-4 defenseman in either of those moves, which we should have (probably should've gotten both), we're not considering trading our 1st round pick for Fiala, because we're already knocking on the playoff door.

It's too bad he went 1 for 3. Set this team back at least a year or two.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Tie goes to the runner though. You give credit where it’s due because at the end of the day it’s like you said you don’t know what exactly what they thought about Norris, but does it matter?

We have heard that PD wanted him specifically, and Mann didn’t expect him to be this good. I don’t think anyone expected a number one centre and 30 goal man, but he was the targeted prospect so that really all that matters in the end.

The funny thing about people making fun of the 6 assets bit, was how wrong everyone was. It ended up being a pretty epic haul, more than most top players have commanded since even without Stu. You can bet other teams are looking for their own 6 assets now when trading a star. The problem is that the Eichel deal is closer to what you can regularly expect as opposed to the EK deal. We really did kill that deal beyond anyones expectations.

Yeah, I hear ya. Same way as I gave the org some credit for getting Paul out of the Speeza deal, I'll give them their due for the amateur scouting. They did a great job identifying the guy they wanted, even if he outpaced their chief amateur scout's projected ceiling.

 

[Ice-Tray]

The Eichel deal was fantastic for Buffalo, and could get better depending on who they draft with that pick this summer.

The EK trade was great for Ottawa. Dorion deserves all the credit for it.

With that said, he completely blew the Stone trade and the Duchene to Columbus deal. If we had gotten a young top-6 forward or top-4 defenseman in either of those moves, which we should have (probably should've gotten both), we're not considering trading our 1st round pick for Fiala, because we're already knocking on the playoff door.

It's too bad he went 1 for 3. Set this team back at least a year or two.

The EK trade net two star players for us so far, that’s worth at least two trades

Also, some would argue that Branstrom is your top 4 D eventually . Given Stone’s inability to stay healthy, we may not regret this deal too much if Branstrom can take another step

Also, the Duchene trade has still net us Lassi Tompson, who is also tracking to be a shooting top 4 defenceman. This one hurts because Duchene is such a good player, but if Lassi can be a legit top 4 RD then we have filled a position of need.

The Eichel deal was a tough one for Buffalo given his injury situation. They weren’t able to take advantage of a full competitive market. The return was better for them than have Eichel in the status quo, but it wasn’t great in my opinion. Eichel is still the best player of the deal by far. Not a surprise as it was a quality vs quantity deal, but unfortunately Vegas didn’t have any blue
chip prospects or potential young stars to trade. Still, they did very well in a less than ideal trade market situation.

Yeah, I hear ya. Same way as I gave the org some credit for getting Paul out of the Speeza deal, I'll give them their due for the amateur scouting. They did a great job identifying the guy they wanted, even if he outpaced their chief amateur scout's projected ceiling.

Yeah I mean that’s always the hope, and sometimes we forget that we have guys on our team that have exceeded expectations. That’s some hockey gods luck for us. I still think we’ll get all the way with a skilled deep team as opposed to superstars.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The EK trade worked out wonderfully well for us.

That is about all that matters: I hated it when it was announced and love it now.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

You guys are nuts. Trade analysis aside, the guy leads a team within one goal of the finals that had no business being there, destroys his ankle and career as a superstar to do so, then comes back to a depleted roster without a decent D partner to work with, and visibly struggles physically. Guy looked like he could barely skate when he came back and I find any claim otherwise absurd. There was poor decision making as well that seemed to increase as the year went on, but you're a player playing a certain way no longer capable of doing it, that's not an easy adjustment. Injuries make a lot of players fall off a cliff. I understand some of these perspectives about the drama between their wives blowing up, but I can't imagine holding Karlsson accountable for not being able to continue to carry handicapped rosters on a bum leg. Reality is that he played on a budget team most of his career and we're lucky he was able to be a part of it and help prop it up to a bubble team that eventually went on a cinderella run.

We got his best and most valuable years at least and the return is obviously excellent at this point. Deep down we all just wanted Stutzle and Norris type players over standard stuff like the other pieces and the anger was over that not appearing to be the likelihood initially. It's a lot easier to identify with that now that the players are real people and developed in to what they are.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You guys are nuts. Trade analysis aside, the guy leads a team within one goal of the finals that had no business being there, destroys his ankle and career as a superstar to do so, then comes back to a depleted roster without a decent D partner to work with, and visibly struggles physically. Guy looked like he could barely skate when he came back and I find any claim otherwise absurd. There was poor decision making as well that seemed to increase as the year went on, but you're a player playing a certain way no longer capable of doing it, that's not an easy adjustment. Injuries make a lot of players fall off a cliff. I understand some of these perspectives about the drama between their wives blowing up, but I can't imagine holding Karlsson accountable for not being able to continue to carry handicapped rosters on a bum leg. Reality is that he played on a budget team most of his career and we're lucky he was able to be a part of it and help prop it up to a bubble team that eventually went on a cinderella run.

We got his best and most valuable years at least and the return is obviously excellent at this point. Deep down we all just wanted Stutzle and Norris type players over standard stuff like the other pieces and the anger was over that not appearing to be the likelihood initially. It's a lot easier to identify with that now that the players are real people and developed in to what they are.

I understand lucky, but I’m not sure we need to feel greatfull. I mean he was drafted by the team, was king of the city, and made millions of dollars playing a game. If we’re talking about lucky, it’s him, not us. I get the sentiment, but I think he made out ok given all of those circumstances. Now that time has passed I think it’s ok to be honest about the full story about his time here. It’s not anything bad, but he was our Pavel Bure talent-wise, crazy awesome memories, but it’s good for everyone that we moved on when we did.

I liked your post, but I think the lesson is more that we as fans need to be patient and let the young players develop before we decide whether trades are ‘good’ or ‘bad’. Very few trades, like drafts, can be reasonably evaluated the day they happen. We do it because we are rabid fans, but we should also understand in the back of our heads that it’s unreasonable to do so and accept that our hot takes are likely wrong.

 

[UglyPuckling]

Bo Byram has had tough luck. I'm still optimistic he will turn it around, but hard to say. Sam Girard is solid. Two top 4 d is nothing to scoff at a

Byram started well in Colorado. Then he ran into some injuries (i.e., concussions). He's played pretty well this year after returning.

 

[UglyPuckling]

We're also talking about the GM, not our predictions, and imo a GM is basically being paid to try to predict outcomes and gets judged on how things turn out, so when they turn out very poorly, like they did in this context, part of the assessment is to point out that the GM obviously did not foresee things correctly, even if there were reasonable motives at the time.

Yep, imagine that, a GM is judged on his "results". That shouldn't be a foreign concept.

Duchene was a rental (a little longer than a TDL rental for a player on his last year of his contract). Did we achieve the great success that was imagined when acquiring Duchene and trading away those assets? Were we not reversing course and rebuilding just 1 1/2 years later? You have to hope your GM understands the relative merit of the team versus its competitors and makes decisions accordingly. Everything is relative, so replacing a player with a slightly better one is far less significant than completely misjudging the team.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I hear that. I mean we have a bunch of guys that were on the team who have given some pretty candid statements over the years.

EK was an amazing player for us, and amazing talent, game changing player, who gave us some of our finest individual franchise moments, but he also had warts to his game, and issues with his leadership of the team culminating with its complete lockeroom collapse.

Gotta take the good with the bad when remembering players. He’s definitely ring of honour worthy, but he is also a cautionary tale of who should be made the captain of the team.

I still love EK65… and his family. All the respect in the world. He was the best we ever had.

I think even Alfie would have made him captain at that time… things just changed as the hair got longer.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Interviews with The Moose

 

[coladin]

This is why I was so pissed at EK that last season. He’s the f***ing captain of our NHL team paid millions to be a leader and a professional, and instead he divided the dressing room over some petty off ice relationship bullshit, and set his own practice schedule and work ethic outside of the rest of the team.

Just an abysmal example of leadership and dedication to the team, and it contributed directly to the collapse of the season and dismantling of the team.

No wonder Dorion burned it all to the ground and built it up based on character and work ethic; not again.

That 2017-2018 season is by far the worst season I have ever watched. The team was clearly way better than what they represented. And Karlsson shared a big part of that. I couldn’t believe how many times he left a guy wide open for a tap-in. Like, how many tap-ins did Andy have to suffer that year? Craig and I shared drinks on a few occasions and , we were both feelin’ it. I usually don’t talk hockey at charity events, but we have chatted before and he spotted me out of the room, as we are car guys. He would love you, Ice!

Anyways , I think it was the fall of 2018, after the trade of Karlsson. I think it was a charity downtown and we were chatting all night. I think I casually brought up the change for this season without Karlsson and he told me “looking forward to cutting down on the tap-ins” , and I think he threw me a number, like, 37 or something.