Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part VIII

[Hale The Villain]

If we're still rehashing the Duchene deal, I'm curious to see how people feel about Dorion keeping the 2018 4th pick (Brady) over the 2019 4th (Byram, presumably).

Was a bit risky giving up an unprotected 2019 1st which could have turned into Hughes, but it turned out to be a good move.

I would have preferred Dobson at the time but Tkachuk has turned into a excellent pick at that spot.

 

[Ghost of Jody Hull]

If we're still rehashing the Duchene deal, I'm curious to see how people feel about Dorion keeping the 2018 4th pick (Brady) over the 2019 4th (Byram, presumably).

Obviously a great choice in hindsight - considering what Tkachuk brings to the team on and off the ice.

But I wonder if we had chosen the 2019 pick, could we have taken Seider over Byram. We seem to value size/two-way play over more offensive defenseman (as evidenced by taking Sanderson over Drysdale the next year).

Seider vs. Tkachuk would be a more interesting debate.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

If we're still rehashing the Duchene deal, I'm curious to see how people feel about Dorion keeping the 2018 4th pick (Brady) over the 2019 4th (Byram, presumably).

Tough to truly gauge with Byram's concussions and the butterfly effect had he had a different career path, but I assume not a single person regrets the Tkachuk pick.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Was a bit risky giving up an unprotected 2019 1st which could have turned into Hughes, but it turned out to be a good move.

I would have preferred Dobson at the time but Tkachuk has turned into a excellent pick at that spot.

It was a protected pick, which is why we kept the pick and took Brady. I’m not sure you can endlessly protect a pick and have it potentially kick every year.

Edit: I think I see what you mean, taking Brady over potentially winning the lottery the following year. Not sure many folks would take Hughes over Brady regardless at this point.

 

[SensontheRush]

Sakic traded for the pick in the midst of a meltdown on a team that was playing extremely bad that lost it's #2D and replaced him with Oduya, and had a broken down Karlsson join the team 2 weeks into the season.

Sharks broke down close to 2 years after the pick was traded

One was very forseeable, the other much less so.

Perfectly fair to call the Karlsson trade a huge win, just like it's perfectly fine to call the Duchene trade a huge loss.

Both were lucky to get picks so high, one was much, much, much more lucky

There was no midst of a meltdown, we were looking great before we traded for Duchene.

And would it not be just one year after the pick was traded that SJS fell off the truck? They looked bad right out of the gate.

I don't care to defend Dorion, but I would say you mischaracterized the situations. I think you can fault Dorion for not knowing was going on in that locker room though, because the trade for Duchene was operating on the same information us fans had; team was trending well and was winning, but it was falling apart behind the scenes, and he should've known that.

 

[BondraTime]

There was no midst of a meltdown, we were looking great before we traded for Duchene.

And would it not be just one year after the pick was traded that SJS fell off the truck? They looked bad right out of the gate.

I don't care to defend Dorion, but I would say you mischaracterized the situations. I think you can fault Dorion for not knowing was going on in that locker room though, because the trade for Duchene was operating on the same information us fans had; team was trending well and was winning, but it was falling apart behind the scenes, and he should've known that.

We had 5 wins in regulation/OT in the 14 games prior to the trade…we were a losing team getting by on loser points. 6-3-5. Our D was Karlsson with no training or camp on one leg, Ceci, Phaneuf, Oduya, and Boro, Wodeman and Claesson.

Karlsson was traded September 13th of September 2018, San Jose fell off the wagon by the time January 2020 rolled around.

Duchene was traded November 11th 2017 the Sens called a full on rebuild in January 2018.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

There was no midst of a meltdown, we were looking great before we traded for Duchene.

We really weren't. We were going to a lot of OT games, our losses were clear losses and our wins were by the skin of our teeths. We looked like a team on the verge of a collapse.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Because people care about what he says, all the time, all season until it doesn’t suit them

The main reason people listen to him often is because he is credible and he gained his credibility by sticking to hockey.

It has nothing to do with suiting or not suiting. The Lajoie situation is purely business, this is not a field he has credibility in.

 

[SensontheRush]

We had 4 wins in regulation/OT in the 14 games prior to the trade…

I was just about to edit my post to reflect the actual record before the trade:

6-3-5

Doesn't scream "midst of disaster" to me.

Game log for those interested.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I was just about to edit my post to reflect the actual record before the trade:

6-3-4

Doesn't scream "midst of disaster" to me.

We didn't look very good getting to that record.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

I was just about to edit my post to reflect the actual record before the trade:

6-3-4

Doesn't scream "midst of disaster" to me.

It was pretty common knowledge within the fanbase at the time that the team was built on smoke and mirrors. Not a stretch at all to suggest it was known within the NHL too.

 

[SensontheRush]

It was pretty common knowledge within the fanbase at the time that the team was built on smoke and mirrors. Not a stretch at all to suggest it was known within the NHL too.

Maybe I was just holding onto hope then lol, though I would disagree that popular or common opinion was the team was built on smoke and mirrors. Even split of opinions if anything.

 

[cudi]

It was pretty common knowledge within the fanbase at the time that the team was built on smoke and mirrors. Not a stretch at all to suggest it was known within the NHL too.

the wheels on the bus were gettin pretty wobbly. Didnt fall off long after that move. Was like trying to fix a broken leg with a band aid or something.

 

[SensontheRush]

Karlsson was traded September 13th of September 2018, San Jose fell off the wagon by the time January 2020 rolled around.

Duchene was traded November 11th 2017 the Sens called a full on rebuild in January 2018.

Bro, San Jose had an even worse start than us to the season in 2019-20.

And I don't know why you are saying this second statement lol, unless you are talking about internally. We definitely weren't publically in a rebuild January 2018.

 

[BondraTime]

Bro, San Jose had an even worse start than us to the season in 2019-20.

And I don't know why you are saying this second statement lol, unless you are talking about internally. We definitely weren't publically in a rebuild January 2018.

We were absolutely in a public rebuild that January’s, as told by both Melnyk and Dorion. That’s what the whole trip to Barbados and resulting 3 year extension was about.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4826314

Apologies early February.

The fact we decided to ship out our vets and the fact Karlsson was essentially all but moved at the deadline that month tells us that everything.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

There was no midst of a meltdown, we were looking great before we traded for Duchene.

And would it not be just one year after the pick was traded that SJS fell off the truck? They looked bad right out of the gate.

I don't care to defend Dorion, but I would say you mischaracterized the situations. I think you can fault Dorion for not knowing was going on in that locker room though, because the trade for Duchene was operating on the same information us fans had; team was trending well and was winning, but it was falling apart behind the scenes, and he should've known that.

We treading water and it's certainly up for debate. The notion that BondraTime's position isn't arguable is not true. We were a bubble team in and out of playoffs for years leading up to that. We were missing our two best defencemen, including our one superstar, who were both head and shoulders above our other D. One was gone and the other came back and played some of the worst hockey of his career due to injury and arguably never recovered. Neither goalie could stop a beach ball and we were still undermanned up front after loading up a bit for the run and getting Macarthur back.

 

[SensontheRush]

We were absolutely in a public rebuild that January’s, as told by both Melnyk and Dorion. That’s what the whole trip to Barbados and resulting 3 year extension was about.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4826314

If anything, it was February 2018, and if they were publically announcing they were rebuilding, it was a pretty subversive, open to interpretation way of doing so.

 

[BondraTime]

If anything, it was February 2018, and if they were publically announcing they were rebuilding, it was a pretty subversive, open to interpretation way of doing so.

Not sure what to say if anyone took that as anything but full on rebuild with Karlsson essentially all but traded at the deadline that month, Brassard traded for all futures.

Without Karlsson the team was a lottery team. He was the definition, at the time, of a league MVP.

Moving on from him signals the start of a rebuild, at the very least.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Maybe I was just holding onto hope then lol, though I would disagree that popular or common opinion was the team was built on smoke and mirrors. Even split of opinions if anything.

Sure, I’d cede that point. Definitely not universally accepted, then or even now.

 

[Micklebot]

Because people care about

He's credible in relaying information he's gathered from sources, his opinions are not typically given much weight.

 

[SensontheRush]

Not sure what to say if anyone took that as anything but full on rebuild with Karlsson essentially all but traded at the deadline that month, Brassard traded for all futures.

Without Karlsson the team was a lottery team. He was the definition, at the time, of a league MVP.

Moving on from him signals the start of a rebuild, at the very least.

But then we didn't move on from him that February, so what does that signal?

Look, the rebuild wasn't clear to us fans, or confirmed, until the 2019 training camp and Karlsson was actually traded IMO. Trading Hoffman came across as an attempt to save the dressing room, for example.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

He's credible in relaying information he's gathered from sources, his opinions are not typically given much weight.

Not true at all.

He is a reporter and analyst as well as an insider.

 

[Micklebot]

Not true at all.

He is a reporter and analyst as well as an insider.

Lots of analysts are ridiculed for their analysis. Freidman has never really been a well respected analyst imo, and I've certainly not seen anyone around here using his analysis of a player or play to bolster their position.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

There was no midst of a meltdown, we were looking great before we traded for Duchene.

And would it not be just one year after the pick was traded that SJS fell off the truck? They looked bad right out of the gate.

I don't care to defend Dorion, but I would say you mischaracterized the situations. I think you can fault Dorion for not knowing was going on in that locker room though, because the trade for Duchene was operating on the same information us fans had; team was trending well and was winning, but it was falling apart behind the scenes, and he should've known that.

even the ECF team didn't look great.

 

[cudi]

Lots of analysts are ridiculed for their analysis. Freidman has never really been a well respected analyst imo, and I've certainly not seen anyone around here using his analysis of a player or play to bolster their position.

yea he's def an Insider, but I dont give much thought to his game analysis. Def not up there with the best, imo of course.

When he first started out on CBC doing in game interviews my mom called him 'the nodding guy' cuz all he did the whole time was nod and nod and nod when the guest spoke. Surprised he didnt give himself headaches.