Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part VIII

[Hale The Villain]

Zibanejad was a move to save money ultimately as he was going to get paid on his next contract. Same old, same old.

He got "paid" with a 5.35M contract?

He was an upcoming RFA when we dealt him. Let's stop pretending he was about to get his big UFA payday at 25 years old.

The 2nd round pick thrown in was for salary reasons, but Dorion thought Brassard was better, it's as simple as that.

Reasons for thinking that were probably very stupid too. No doubt in my mind Brassard playing for Boucher in junior, being a left-handed center and being from Ottawa played a big role.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It was so out of nowhere. Dorion was raving about Zibanejad making a point of naming him in interviews as the big 1st line center with so much room to grow.

 

[JungleBeat]

It was so out of nowhere. Dorion was raving about Zibanejad making a point of naming him in interviews as the big 1st line center with so much room to grow.

Dorion is a clown that can't think for himself. Boucher basically told him exactly what to do: bring in Brassard, DiDemenico, Thompson, and Pyatt.

Boucher probably even told him to bring Pius Suter to the training camp but Dorion is allergic to beneficial players and decided to go against Boucher for the first time.

 

[Big Muddy]

He got "paid" with a 5.35M contract?

He was an upcoming RFA when we dealt him. Let's stop pretending he was about to get his big UFA payday at 25 years old.

The 2nd round pick thrown in was for salary reasons, but Dorion thought Brassard was better, it's as simple as that.

Reasons for thinking that were probably very stupid too. No doubt in my mind Brassard playing for Boucher in junior, being a left-handed center and being from Ottawa played a big role.

I don't think Dorion knew what contract the Rangers would offer Zibanejad one year later. And I think Brassard salary $s were less after the signing bonuses were paid out which is what this article states.

Ottawa Senators: Revisiting the Zibanejad Trade - The Hockey Writers Archives Latest News, Analysis & More

In 2016, the Senators traded Mika Zibanejad to the Rangers. While Ottawa came out on the losing end, there was more involved in the trade.

thehockeywriters.com

 

[dumbdick]

He got "paid" with a 5.35M contract?

He was an upcoming RFA when we dealt him. Let's stop pretending he was about to get his big UFA payday at 25 years old.

The 2nd round pick thrown in was for salary reasons, but Dorion thought Brassard was better, it's as simple as that.

Reasons for thinking that were probably very stupid too. No doubt in my mind Brassard playing for Boucher in junior, being a left-handed center and being from Ottawa played a big role.

Zib didn't really prove he was worth more than that before the time of the signing. The salary dollar figure proves that. He was a very good player, but it's revisionist to say that his trajectory was easily predictable. Not even Zib or his agent expected it at that time, which is why Zib signed that 5.3X5 deal.

I know people like to jump on Dorion, but I largely give him a pass on Zib. Not many guys break out in their 8th NHL season.

 

[PlayOn]

I don't think Dorion knew what contract the Rangers would offer Zibanejad one year later. And I think Brassard salary $s were less after the signing bonuses were paid out which is what this article states.

Ottawa Senators: Revisiting the Zibanejad Trade - The Hockey Writers Archives Latest News, Analysis & More

In 2016, the Senators traded Mika Zibanejad to the Rangers. While Ottawa came out on the losing end, there was more involved in the trade.

thehockeywriters.com

I think Dorion overvalued Brassard, otherwise he could’ve kept Zibby at the same price for that year and traded him if the contract demands were too much the following summer as he would have still been under the teams control.

Dorion saw our window as two years imo so he was going all in before all the contracts expired. He thought Brassard was the better player at that current time, which I disagree with, and obviously future wise it was abysmal.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I don't think Dorion knew what contract the Rangers would offer Zibanejad one year later. And I think Brassard salary $s were less after the signing bonuses were paid out which is what this article states.

Ottawa Senators: Revisiting the Zibanejad Trade - The Hockey Writers Archives Latest News, Analysis & More

In 2016, the Senators traded Mika Zibanejad to the Rangers. While Ottawa came out on the losing end, there was more involved in the trade.

thehockeywriters.com

The 2nd was thrown in so the Rangers would pay Brassard's signing bonus.

Zibanejad's comparables were there. 5-6M on a medium term deal was market value for a young 50-60P center.

This idea that he was traded because he was on the verge of getting a massive contract we couldn't afford makes no sense.

 

[BondraTime]

Narrator: Yet it was possible. Atleast the pick we sent was lottery protected. The pick we got from San Jose was lottery boosted (as in we got the better of their two picks between 2019 and 2020).

We never got the better of the 2019 picks and 2020 picks, they had already traded the 2019 pick to Buffalo for Evander Kane.

How could you possibly get the better of two picks from different years, that makes no sense.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Zib didn't really prove he was worth more than that before the time of the signing. The salary dollar figure proves that. He was a very good player, but it's revisionist to say that his trajectory was easily predictable. Not even Zib or his agent expected it at that time, which is why Zib signed that 5.3X5 deal.

I know people like to jump on Dorion, but I largely give him a pass on Zib. Not many guys break out in their 8th NHL season.

Zibanejad was one of the most raw prospects ever selected in the top 10. Dude was literally just a collection of elite tools and skills that occasionally flashed high-end upside but often left you wanting more.

I didn't expect him to end up an elite offensive player but I hated the deal nonetheless because we dealt a 23YR old raw toolsy center coming off of a 50P season for a 29YR old coming off career high seasons of 58 and 60 points.

Even if Zibanejad didn't break out and ended up remaining a good #2 center, getting two years of Brassard would not have been worth giving up 5-10 years of Zibanejad. Deal was incredibly stupid based on that alone.

 

[dumbdick]

Zibanejad was one of the most raw prospects ever selected in the top 10. Dude was literally just a collection of elite tools and skills that occasionally flashed high-end upside but often left you wanting more.

I didn't expect him to end up an elite offensive player but I hated the deal nonetheless because we dealt a 23YR old raw toolsy center coming off of a 50P season for a 29YR old coming off career high seasons of 58 and 60 points.

Even if Zibanejad didn't break out and ended up remaining a good #2 center, getting two years of Brassard would not have been worth giving up 5-10 years of Zibanejad. Deal was incredibly stupid based on that alone.

Yeah, it certainly didn't work out in hindsight.
That said, I always thought Zib was a bit of a floater when he was here. Good player, but more of a one dimensional scorer who disappeared for stretches. Kind of like Hoffman where he had limited to offer outside of the scoresheet. He's obviously shaken that a bit, but I still saw the Rags fans throwing him into trade proposals quite a bit as well so I wonder if he's completely past that. (He's always looked good when I've seen him recently).

 

[Big Muddy]

The 2nd was thrown in so the Rangers would pay Brassard's signing bonus.

Zibanejad's comparables were there. 5-6M on a medium term deal was market value for a young 50-60P center.

This idea that he was traded because he was on the verge of getting a massive contract we couldn't afford makes no sense.

I never said anything about "massive" contract. All I said is the Senators figured they would save money which they did.

2016-17
Brassard - $3 m salary, $2 m in signing bonuses paid by Rangers
Zibanejad - $3.25 m

2017-18
Brassard - $3.5 m total salary
Zibanejad - $6.0 m

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Mika Zibanejad Contract, Cap Hit, Salary and Stats - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Mika Zibanejad contract, salary, cap hit, salary cap, aav, career earnings, lifetime earnings, aav, advanced stats, transaction history, trade history, and rfa or ufa free agent status

www.capfriendly.com

Is it possible that Dorion/Senators had more than one reason for the trade? Sure, that's possible. But I'm not inside Dorion's head, so I'm not really in a position to know or comment about that.

 

[JungleBeat]

I never said anything about "massive" contract. All I said is the Senators figured they would save money which they did.

2016-17
Brassard - $3 m salary, $2 m in signing bonuses paid by Rangers
Zibanejad - $3.25 m

2017-18
Brassard - $3.5 m total salary
Zibanejad - $6.0 m

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Mika Zibanejad Contract, Cap Hit, Salary and Stats - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Mika Zibanejad contract, salary, cap hit, salary cap, aav, career earnings, lifetime earnings, aav, advanced stats, transaction history, trade history, and rfa or ufa free agent status

www.capfriendly.com

So a whole 250k saved while going on a cup run! Probably would have beat the Pens if Brassard wasn't so useless too.

Dorion also signed Pyatt, Thompson and Smith to healthy contacts in the offseason as well. Did Melnyk force his hand? Dorion could have easily signed Zibanejad.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I never said anything about "massive" contract. All I said is the Senators figured they would save money which they did.

2016-17
Brassard - $3 m salary, $2 m in signing bonuses paid by Rangers
Zibanejad - $3.25 m

2017-18
Brassard - $3.5 m total salary
Zibanejad - $6.0 m

Thank You - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Thank you for the amazing 9 years

www.capfriendly.com

Mika Zibanejad Contract, Cap Hit, Salary and Stats - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Mika Zibanejad contract, salary, cap hit, salary cap, aav, career earnings, lifetime earnings, aav, advanced stats, transaction history, trade history, and rfa or ufa free agent status

www.capfriendly.com

Those savings are pretty inconsequential.

Even moreso when you consider that the Sens wouldn't have front-loaded a deal for Zibanejad and wouldn't have paid him 6M in the first year of an extension.

 

[Big Muddy]

Those savings are pretty inconsequential.

Even moreso when you consider that the Sens wouldn't have front-loaded a deal for Zibanejad and wouldn't have paid him 6M in the first year of an extension.

Zibanejad's contract was 5 years, but I only included 2016-17 and 2017-18. The Senators would have realized that the larger amount they would need to pay to Zibanejad would extend several years longer. There could have been multiple reasons why Dorion made the trade. I'm not inside Dorion's head though, so I stuck with the thing that was more black & white. Money has been a factor and played an important role over the years.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Dorian did say today Matt Murray wanted to go to World Championships, but ran out of time. Will be at training camp.
On with AJ and Brad.

 

[Big Muddy]

So a whole 250k saved while going on a cup run! Probably would have beat the Pens if Brassard wasn't so useless too.

Dorion also signed Pyatt, Thompson and Smith to healthy contacts in the offseason as well. Did Melnyk force his hand? Dorion could have easily signed Zibanejad.

Yes, small savings in 2016-17, but much larger savings starting in 2017-18 and beyond.

I really can't comment on what was in Dorion's head, and his rational for roster construction, who influenced him, or other signings. It's Dorion so god knows, but yes he does have to fill out a roster. I just know that money has been a factor or reason for lots of things over the years.

 

[swiftwin]

We never got the better of the 2019 picks and 2020 picks, they had already traded the 2019 pick to Buffalo for Evander Kane.

How could you possibly get the better of two picks from different years, that makes no sense.

The 2019 pick that went to Buffalo was lottery protected, which meant that if San Jose has missed the playoffs in 2019, Buffalo would have received San Jose's 2020 pick. Dorion traded for the opposite end of that pick. Which meant if San Jose had missed the playoffs in 2019, we would have received San Jose's 2019 lottery pick, and Buffalo would get their 2020 pick. San Jose did make the playoffs in 2019, so Buffalo got to keep the 2019 pick, and we got the 2020 pick instead, which turned out to be a lottery pick.

Basically, we had a double shot at a lottery pick. San Jose only had to miss the playoffs once in 2019 or 2020 for us to get a lottery pick. That's the opposite of lottery protection, where a team only has to make the playoffs once in a two year span to ensure the traded pick is not a lottery pick.

That 1st round pick we got from San Jose was far more valuable than it appeared on the surface, and it obviously paid off in the end, in the form of Stutzle.

 

[dumbdick]

The 2019 pick that went to Buffalo was lottery protected, which meant that if San Jose has missed the playoffs in 2019, Buffalo would have received San Jose's 2020 pick. Dorion traded for the opposite end of that pick. Which meant if San Jose had missed the playoffs in 2019, we would have received San Jose's 2019 lottery pick, and Buffalo would get their 2020 pick. San Jose did make the playoffs in 2019, so Buffalo got to keep the 2019 pick, and we got the 2020 pick instead, which turned out to be a lottery pick.

Basically, we had a double shot at a lottery pick. San Jose only had to miss the playoffs once in 2019 or 2020 for us to get a lottery pick. That's the opposite of lottery protection, where a team only has to make the playoffs once in a two year span to ensure the traded pick is not a lottery pick.

That 1st round pick we got from San Jose was far more valuable than it appeared on the surface, and it obviously paid off in the end, in the form of Stutzle.

Yeah I always forget how perfect that worked out for us. There was another first we could have landed there too, if I recall correctly.

 

[swiftwin]

Yeah I always forget how perfect that worked out for us. There was another first we could have landed there too, if I recall correctly.

Yup, had San Jose beat St Louis in the conference finals in 2019, we would have received San Jose's 1st round pick in 2021 as well, which was 7th overall (William Eklund).

 

[dumbdick]

Yup, had San Jose beat St Louis in the conference finals in 2019, we would have received San Jose's 1st round pick in 2021 as well, which was 7th overall (William Eklund).

Man, that would have been an even more epic trade for us.

 

[coladin]

Dorion legitimately thought Brassard was a better player and followed Boucher's idea the we needed more left handed shots. Melnyk and his cheapness aren't to blame for that idiotic trade.

On top of the fact that he had conditioning/motivation issues. And they weren’t going to pay 5+ million to put up with that. Frustrating to watch and clearly he was not going to be the player he that we see in NYR.

 

[Sun God Nika]

On top of the fact that he had conditioning/motivation issues. And they weren’t going to pay 5+ million to put up with that. Frustrating to watch and clearly he was not going to be the player he that we see in NYR.

you gotta teach me how to talk out of my ass too.

 

[Ice-Tray]

On top of the fact that he had conditioning/motivation issues. And they weren’t going to pay 5+ million to put up with that. Frustrating to watch and clearly he was not going to be the player he that we see in NYR.

Yeah, the hero worship in here is strange. The same guys that have all the ‘realistic’ takes when it comes to management and ownership, are teenagers at a pop concert when it comes to soft players, especially after they leave.

Zib was absolutely a frustrating player who seemed like he was never going to be able to put the work in to be the guy we thought he could be. He was low intensity, and not a guy we wanted to rely on going into our window of playoff contention. Brass was known at the time to be the better player, and a playoff player.

For all the hindsight complaining by the usuals Zib has still to do a damn thing on the third richest team in the league with guys begging to play there. He’s turned into a fine player in NY, but that wasn’t the guy playing in Ottawa no matter how many times you blink and click your heels.

There’s always guys in here that ‘knew all along’ and are happy to sing that song. But when they’re wrong, which is more often then not, they never mention it again and get pissy when people bring it up.

Just fans being fans….. lol

 

[coladin]

you gotta teach me how to talk out of my ass too.

You did a fine job with that shit thread . Anyways , I didn’t like Zibanejad, and it seems like he took the trade to heart to smarten up

 

[Sens Vader]

gonna be a great day when this clown is fired.