Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[JD1]

Lol yeah sure I’m the one making up the false scenarios whereas Dorion gets to push the goal posts wherever he pleases. From telling everyone that rebuild was over, to bringing in over the hill players and 2 years later playing it off as ‘I did it for the kids to bond with’ to now being non-commital on what the expectations would be for next season, this guy is only interested in saving face. Tkachuk made it clear what he expects out of the team, why was it so hard for Dorion? Why is he still trying to buy time on what he expects out of the team with the ‘ask me after the offseason’? I would expect the GM of a professional hockey team to echo exactly where he expects his team to be next year, and I’m glad Claire Hanna called him out on his BS.

The biggest problem I have with what you said is the notion that missing the playoffs = mission accomplished…exactly the loser attitude we need to get rid of.

I was actually mocking you ... we've missed the playoffs, making them wasn't the objective....mission accomplished

 

[Senovision]

I think you could get him for cheap but I’m not as confident in Soogard and Forsberg handling the load next season (especially with Forsberg coming off double MCL tears). Anaheim has had a terrible Defence and Gibson can be the type of goalie to steal playoff series (if afforded that opportunity).

Friedman speculating that he’d be willing to go to a contender and, assuming we plan to contend next season, he’d be a good option to shore up the position. Probably can get the ducks to retain a bit more.

Sorry I just can't see him as someone the Sens would be looking at. I think the Sens will be looking for someone who has put up better numbers recently....just my opinion.

 

[Senscore]

For any Succession fans, Dorion is our very own version of Tom Wambsgans. Already puckering up for new owners.

There's more of Greg in Pierre than I'd prefer.

 

[SensHulk]

I was actually mocking you ... we've missed the playoffs, making them wasn't the objective....mission accomplished

Lol sure bud

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

What will happen to all the people who are bigger Pierre Dorion fans than Ottawa Senators fans?

Do they just leave?

 

[Ice-Tray]

Which of Dorions moves in the past 12 months have been driven by analytics?

Good question, you’ve drawn all the likes from the ‘none’ crowd

 

[Do Make Say Think]

There's more of Greg in Pierre than I'd prefer.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Ummm in THIS interview he acknowledged he NOW looks at analytics and made a joke about it.
So not really sure what your flex is here.

Also with respect to your previous post abt Pierre explaining why he brought in “character players” etc. yeah we know….that wasn’t ever the issue.
The issue is no one told Pierre he had to bring in garbage players & overpay for them and/or overpay them (like delZotto for example) to teach that lesson.
Josh Brown?! FFS (since that’s the example Pierre used) you can have a character guy who is a legit bottom pairing guy and not an 8th defenceman lol

Here’s the thing; he talked about it today and you think he started today, DJ has talked about it for a long time. But hey, yeah, totally new….

Yes, it was the issue, for many people. Go back and read posts again. People still argue that we were trying to win all these years… PD haters sounding dumber by the minute.

Also, the issue as you put it is, again, is from a perspective of someone who knows little but thinks they know a lot.

My perspective is that I enjoy hearing from people about why they did what they did, and I enjoy hearing the background reading about what their rebuild plan was. I also judge the rebuild by the strength of the young team I watching, not some angry personal bullshit.

My point stands. People have been bitching about what they the ‘know’, instead of what they ‘think’, have been bitching that there was no plan, and bitching about the lack of skill from guys who were brought in for other reasons. They also argue about how character, insulation, and mentorship isn’t important.

These people don‘t know shit about shit, but like to pretend to be experts. I’m cool calling them out and have no shits to give if you or anyone else likes it or not.

I’ve listened to bitter dumbass knowitalls in here for 3 years now, and now I’m watching them all scramble and make excuses for not not knowing shit then or now.

The rebuild has gone well, the team is young and good, and some folks are struggling to admit that they were wrong the whole time.

 

[Ice-Tray]

All in all it was a nothing press conference by a guy reasonably secure about the short term but probably seeing the writing on the wall he's gone as soon as the new ownership group is in place and has had a few months to feel things out.

Nothing catastrophic planned. A man out of ideas who has still not made the playoffs.

It was nothing to you because you don’t like anything he said, makes it hard to have your opinions if you actually consider what the actual decision makers say.…. lol

Makes me laugh because you guys are the exact people the team and players tune out on social media. The noise they tell each other to ignore.

Internet experts

 

[Senscore]

Greg's "We are a team" moment.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Lol yeah sure I’m the one making up the false scenarios whereas Dorion gets to push the goal posts wherever he pleases. From telling everyone that rebuild was over, to bringing in over the hill players and 2 years later playing it off as ‘I did it for the kids to bond with’ to now being non-commital on what the expectations would be for next season, this guy is only interested in saving face. Tkachuk made it clear what he expects out of the team, why was it so hard for Dorion? Why is he still trying to buy time on what he expects out of the team with the ‘ask me after the offseason’? I would expect the GM of a professional hockey team to echo exactly where he expects his team to be next year, and I’m glad Claire Hanna called him out on his BS.

The biggest problem I have with what you said is the notion that missing the playoffs = mission accomplished…exactly the loser attitude we need to get rid of.

You just didn’t listen when all this was explained to you every year.

This is a you problem.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Here’s the thing; he talked about it today and you think he started today, DJ has talked about it for a long time. But hey, yeah, totally new….

Yes, it was the issue, for many people. Go back and read posts again. People still argue that we were trying to win all these years… PD haters sounding dumber by the minute.

Also, the issue as you put it is, again, is from a perspective of someone who knows little but thinks they know a lot.

My perspective is that I enjoy hearing from people about why they did what they did, and I enjoy hearing the background reading about what their rebuild plan was. I also judge the rebuild by the strength of the young team I watching, not some angry personal bullshit.

My point stands. People have been bitching about what they the ‘know’, instead of what they ‘think’, have been bitching that there was no plan, and bitching about the lack of skill from guys who were brought in for other reasons. They also argue about how character, insulation, and mentorship isn’t important.

These people don‘t know shit about shit, but like to pretend to be experts. I’m cool calling them out and have no shits to give if you or anyone else likes it or not.

I’ve listened to bitter dumbass knowitalls in here for 3 years now, and now I’m watching them all scramble and make excuses for not not knowing shit then or now.

The rebuild has gone well, the team is young and good, and some folks are struggling to admit that they were wrong the whole time.

To each their own, feel free to interpret what Pierre said however you like or how they’ve discussed analytics in the past compared to now.

I find/found the intractable know it alls from both sides equally silly* regardless of the status of the rebuild.

*though I still enjoy all the discussion, it’s fun

 

[Ice-Tray]

To each their own, feel free to interpret what Pierre said however you like or how they’ve discussed analytics in the past compared to now.

I find/found the intractable know it alls from both sides equally irritating regardless of the status of the rebuild.

I do feel free. In my opinion it’s better to take what you know has been said by people involved, than to make shit up.

I also know we live in an age where you can make shit up and say it over and over again and that makes it real to some people.

 

[swiftwin]

What will happen to all the people who are bigger Pierre Dorion fans than Ottawa Senators fans?

Do they just leave?

Are there any?

 

[Wondercarrot]

I do feel free. In my opinion it’s better to take what you know has been said by people involved, than to make shit up.

I also know we live in an age where you can make shit up and say it over and over again and that makes it real to some people.

Yeah, that’s going to be a little too richly ironic for me here lol

This one is a lengthy discussion of the deep roots of the analytics community in Ottawa and Ottawas curious lack of use of them, noting that it was a split job between the existing video coach and another who has a full time job in the government.
This goes back 3/4 years.
It was not a priority, as likely as budget as anything - but not a priority.
I mean Dorion even made a joke about it.

The curious case of Ottawa’s many connections to the analytics movement

Many of the sites that helped spawn the analytics movement in hockey share a commonality: a connection to Ottawa.

theathletic.com

To be fair though, it came straight from the top - Melnyk had no use for it really. It was the culture he set so he didn’t want to ‘waste money’ on it.

"Well, I’ve actually had a lot of experience in analytics when it comes to horse racing. In horse racing, it doesn’t work. I can tell you that. I spent a lot of money on it. In hockey, you defer to and it depends on who you talk to. It can work as a tool, but it’s only a small tool. It’s not even half the tool. It just tells you… a lot of statistics, you have to be into that, but a good, experienced hockey person like a Bryan Murray – of that vintage – they don’t need analytics. They can see it already. They’ve seen the play over and over and over again and they know how to fix things because they’ve been there and done that. It’s just another day in the office, so analytics are great. People should see it, but it’s not the beginning and the end. There’s no chance that it will make that big of a difference."
- Eugene Melnyk 2019

So all that said, there was a long clear pattern showing the value they placed on analytics.
Frankly, I’m both surprised you were unaware of any of this, and how passionate you are about it.

They were less so, now more so - not sure where that became a crazy proposition.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Yeah, that’s going to be a little too richly ironic for me here lol

This one is a lengthy discussion of the deep roots of the analytics community in Ottawa and Ottawas curious lack of use of them, noting that it was a split job between the existing video coach and another who has a full time job in the government.
This goes back 3/4 years.
It was not a priority, as likely as budget as anything - but not a priority.
I mean Dorion even made a joke about it.

The curious case of Ottawa’s many connections to the analytics movement

Many of the sites that helped spawn the analytics movement in hockey share a commonality: a connection to Ottawa.

theathletic.com

To be fair though, it came straight from the top - Melnyk had no use for it really. It was the culture he set so he didn’t want to ‘waste money’ on it.

"Well, I’ve actually had a lot of experience in analytics when it comes to horse racing. In horse racing, it doesn’t work. I can tell you that. I spent a lot of money on it. In hockey, you defer to and it depends on who you talk to. It can work as a tool, but it’s only a small tool. It’s not even half the tool. It just tells you… a lot of statistics, you have to be into that, but a good, experienced hockey person like a Bryan Murray – of that vintage – they don’t need analytics. They can see it already. They’ve seen the play over and over and over again and they know how to fix things because they’ve been there and done that. It’s just another day in the office, so analytics are great. People should see it, but it’s not the beginning and the end. There’s no chance that it will make that big of a difference."
- Eugene Melnyk 2019

So all that said, there was a long clear pattern showing the value they placed on analytics.
Frankly, I’m both surprised you were unaware of any of this, and how passionate you are about it.

They were less so, now more so - not sure where that became a crazy proposition.

It wasn’t crazy, it’s just old timey now, like being mad about Balcers or Abramov on waivers or Melnyk’s budget. It hasn’t been relevant for a while now.

You say ‘they’, but I’m reading a quote from the maligned owner. As you say, he may have had something to do with it.

We definitely have been subscribers to a data service (sportslogiq?) for at least a few years now and the coaching staff look at the data after each game apparently.

I don’t think you need a specific hire, most coaches should be able to apply the data they find relevant, and it’s definitely more mainstream now. It looks like it’s generally used as an evaluation tool more so than a predictive tool.

 

[Tuna99]

Dorion end of season interview he predicted this team would make the playoffs for 10 years - and then when asked to make a prediction for next year said he “didn’t want to make any bold predictions like playoffs.“

Okay, doesn’t make sense but this is Pierre Dorion press conference so pretty par for the course

BUT This is why he sucks as his job, and why the Sens media is also weak, can’t you guys connect these dots, it’s literally your job to do so

 

[boxbox]

Here’s the thing; he talked about it today and you think he started today, DJ has talked about it for a long time. But hey, yeah, totally new….

Yes, it was the issue, for many people. Go back and read posts again. People still argue that we were trying to win all these years… PD haters sounding dumber by the minute.

Also, the issue as you put it is, again, is from a perspective of someone who knows little but thinks they know a lot.

My perspective is that I enjoy hearing from people about why they did what they did, and I enjoy hearing the background reading about what their rebuild plan was. I also judge the rebuild by the strength of the young team I watching, not some angry personal bullshit.

My point stands. People have been bitching about what they the ‘know’, instead of what they ‘think’, have been bitching that there was no plan, and bitching about the lack of skill from guys who were brought in for other reasons. They also argue about how character, insulation, and mentorship isn’t important.

These people don‘t know shit about shit, but like to pretend to be experts. I’m cool calling them out and have no shits to give if you or anyone else likes it or not.

I’ve listened to bitter dumbass knowitalls in here for 3 years now, and now I’m watching them all scramble and make excuses for not not knowing shit then or now.

The rebuild has gone well, the team is young and good, and some folks are struggling to admit that they were wrong the whole time.

a little aggressive in delivery haha but you ain't wrong

 

[boxbox]

Dorion end of season interview he predicted this team would make the playoffs for 10 years - and then when asked to make a prediction for next year said he “didn’t want to make any bold predictions like playoffs.“

Okay, doesn’t make sense but this is Pierre Dorion press conference so pretty par for the course

BUT This is why he sucks as his job, and why the Sens media is also weak, can’t you guys connect these dots, it’s literally your job to do so

how does it not make sense ? its easy to make sense out of it...

- he believes this team once it gets over the hump and becomes what they envisioned will be a team capable of making the playoff for as long as the core of the team remains (ex Pens), the Sens have done it in the past its not like he said they would win 5 cups
- maybe he said that bit about not wanting to make bold predictions because if he did predict making the playoffs most would take process it as "stanley cup or bust"

 

[Tuna99]

how does it not make sense ? its easy to make sense out of it...

- he believes this team once it gets over the hump and becomes what they envisioned will be a team capable of making the playoff for as long as the core of the team remains (ex Pens), the Sens have done it in the past its not like he said they would win 5 cups
- maybe he said that bit about not wanting to make bold predictions because if he did predict making the playoffs most would take process it as "stanley cup or bust"

Your captain is yelling he’s going to win the Cup in the market, you yourself just said they will be in the playoffs for 10 years but when a reporter asked you where you see your team next year you’re afraid to say it.

Leadership is about being brave and asking those around you to be brave. If your point is he’s afraid of the fanbase reaction to expecting this rebuilding team to make the playoffs - this explains everything. It’s why Dorion has never felt comfortable here, his legacy of him and Melnyck talking down the fans shows he has at best an ackward legacy with the fans and at worse he is afraid of fan reaction

 

[Loach]

Pierre’s presser today proved to me that we need to go in another direction. I was willing to give him another chance because of the Chychrun move and the melnym shackles being off but holy shit this guy took absolutely zero accountability in the team missing for 6 straight years. He also didn’t relay any expectations or accountability for his coaching staff or his players.

Yes of course you need to make the playoffs now. I get he’s been burned by statements in the past but this is why our organization is pure shit when it comes to compete level vs other teams. We fold, there is no winning culture. Get this moron out.

Even Marek talked about it today in his podcast about how Dorion came off as if he was ‘patting himself on the back’ for a job well done….just sucking up to new owners or another GM role elsewhere. He is only about himself

Is this when Ian asked about Jbd and Thomson...Dorion says something like "I guess you didn't hear my other interview, I'll go over it again for you."
Then Ian asks him about being the only gm/coach to miss the pkayoffs for 4 years in a row and not get fired.
Lol

 

[Loach]

Well first you said he never relayed any expectations but now you're saying he didn't give him a ringing endorsement? I think what he said was they evaluate everything at season's end.

What accountability do you want him to take? Kind of simply put: there hasn't been an objective of making the playoffs since the 19-20 season. We haven't made the playoffs. So the objective has been met ... hasn't it? Or have you developed a way to suck and blow at the same time? There wasn't an objective to make the playoffs so how can he be held accountable for not doing that.

Make up a false scenario. Lay blame for not achieving it. That's pretty much sums up what you've done.

And I'd rather leave Gibson in Anaheim.


When did he throw DJ under the bus?

He wouldn't say the goal next year was to make the playoffs...he was asked a few times. Wouldn't say it. His objective....is no objective.

 

[Tuna99]

Is this when Ian asked about Jbd and Thomson...Dorion says something like "I guess you didn't hear my other interview, I'll go over it again for you."
Then Ian asks him about being the only gm/coach to miss the pkayoffs for 4 years in a row and not get fired.
Lol

I think that there is tension between Dorion and Mendes shows what a crap job Dorion has done at integrating himself into the community and the siege mentality he was under with Melnyck where the Senators saw enemies and saw the Ottawa landscape, city and business and fans as a place to fight with and not a place to be leaders and community stewards

That legacy is why he should be fired

 

[Loach]

What will happen to all the people who are bigger Pierre Dorion fans than Ottawa Senators fans?

Do they just leave?

They all have Stockholm Syndrome.

Here’s the thing; he talked about it today and you think he started today, DJ has talked about it for a long time. But hey, yeah, totally new….

Yes, it was the issue, for many people. Go back and read posts again. People still argue that we were trying to win all these years… PD haters sounding dumber by the minute.

Also, the issue as you put it is, again, is from a perspective of someone who knows little but thinks they know a lot.

My perspective is that I enjoy hearing from people about why they did what they did, and I enjoy hearing the background reading about what their rebuild plan was. I also judge the rebuild by the strength of the young team I watching, not some angry personal bullshit.

My point stands. People have been bitching about what they the ‘know’, instead of what they ‘think’, have been bitching that there was no plan, and bitching about the lack of skill from guys who were brought in for other reasons. They also argue about how character, insulation, and mentorship isn’t important.

These people don‘t know shit about shit, but like to pretend to be experts. I’m cool calling them out and have no shits to give if you or anyone else likes it or not.

I’ve listened to bitter dumbass knowitalls in here for 3 years now, and now I’m watching them all scramble and make excuses for not not knowing shit then or now.

The rebuild has gone well, the team is young and good, and some folks are struggling to admit that they were wrong the whole time.

You cast a wide net when you shit on people. How bout you eat some?

 

[JD1]

He wouldn't say the goal next year was to make the playoffs...he was asked a few times. Wouldn't say it. His objective....is no objective.

Nice to see the evolution in here

Dorion used to get crucified for what he said

Now he's getting crucified for what he doesn't say