Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Big Muddy]

Based on the context of it, I'd imagine the parallel was being drawn to the Duchene trade? If the SJ trade was lucky with how SJ bottomed out, then the same logic could be used on Ottawa bottoming out after the deal. I have some personal misgivings with how that logic is applied — Ottawa was a far more likely bet to bottom out than SJ was, even at the time of the deal the wheels were starting to fall off... to say nothing of the fact that I don't think that deal was awful on the surface — but I believe that was the intent. Sure I'll be corrected if I'm mistaken.

I view the two as the same level of boneheaded moves. Zibanejad and Stone trades were horrible.

Those are 2 leading candidates for sure. I put them both into the "unforced error" category.

It was nice to see us land a big fish in Debrincat. Getting him resigned will be even nicer. Let's hope that this is a new trend and a sign of what is to come in the future.

I expect to hear the "ticket sales" retort of course, but indications so far have been encouraging. Maybe there's wisdom in the old cliche "Build it and they will come". A return to the attendance numbers they had years ago (for a decent stretch of time) would certainly be nice and a big step in the right direction.

 

[Sens Vader]

Dorion and the organizations biggest weakness was evaluating Pro level talent

They hired the Director of Pro scouting from one of the most prestigious NHL organization

Can’t knock it, identifying their weaknesses and finding solutions

 

[Big Muddy]

Dorion and the organizations biggest weakness was evaluating Pro level talent

They hired the Director of Pro scouting from one of the most prestigious NHL organization

Can’t knock it, identifying their weaknesses and finding solutions

Good point. Now we await results of course, but that move provides hope.

 

[Cosmix]

Those are 2 leading candidates for sure. I put them both into the "unforced error" category.

It was nice to see us land a big fish in Debrincat. Getting him resigned will be even nicer. Let's hope that this is a new trend and a sign of what is to come in the future.

I expect to hear the "ticket sales" retort of course, but indications so far have been encouraging. Maybe there's wisdom in the old cliche "Build it and they will come". A return to the attendance numbers they had years ago (for a decent stretch of time) would certainly be nice and a big step in the right direction.

There is another bon mot: Build a better mousetrap and the world will NOT beat a path to your door! You must market your product whether or not it is superior. However if it is superior you have a much better chance of success. And if it not superior, you will likely do poorly.

 

[Big Muddy]

There is another bon mot: Build a better mousetrap and the world will NOT beat a path to your door! You must market your product whether or not it is superior. However if it is superior you have a much better chance of success. And if it not superior, you will likely do poorly.

Oh for sure. The "build it" would include improving the marketing.

Things need to better across the board in all areas. But, I think marketing professional hockey in a Canadian city isn't a Mount Everest level challenge. I guess I remember the earlier period of the Senators which seems to have been pushed out of memory with some folks. Ottawa is a tougher market because corporate sales aren't as good with the federal government being the big employer. But, Senators enjoyed a pretty big walk up crowd in years past.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

HFSens is not Twitter.

Another mod called you out for being divisive when responding to someone who said HSSens posters who are vocal about their dislike for Dorion can admit when he pulls off a good move with "screw the haters".

You responded to being called divisive with "but Twitter".

It looks and sounds to me like you are waging a war against Twitter users you dislike on HFSens. You should spend less time on Twitter if you are conflating HFSens and Twitter.

Never said it was. You still don't get it.

Divisive? Waving war? Please.

 

[Sweatred]

Oh for sure. The "build it" would include improving the marketing.

Things need to better across the board in all areas. But, I think marketing professional hockey in a Canadian city isn't a Mount Everest level challenge. I guess I remember the earlier period of the Senators which seems to have been pushed out of memory with some folks. Ottawa is a tougher market because corporate sales aren't as good with the federal government being the big employer. But, Senators enjoyed a pretty big walk up crowd in years past.

Without that corporate base to basically give fans free tickets (at the expense of CDN tax payers) we need the affluent $100K middle class of Ottawa to step up and buy $25.50 tickets.

I was looking yesterday, You can buy a half season in row E on the 300 level for about $800… we need to get back to that type of support in this market with small groups of fans splitting/sharing tickets.

That type of interest should sustain decent spending for Dorion and the girls.

 

[Icelevel]

Mark Stone is easily his biggest loss IMO. Trading a world class player and getting a player that you misevaluated so badly that it is years later and he can barely crack the lineup. Brutal.

Should have been our captain. Debrincat trade is awesome. But it comes after giving away Zibanejad, giving away Stone, giving away Hoffman, etc

 

[Ice-Tray]

100%. If Dorion makes a series of great moves that propels us in to success, everyone will give him all the kudos in the world and applaud him, just like after yesterdays move.

No they won’t, you will though. It’s why I love you

Mark Stone is easily his biggest loss IMO. Trading a world class player and getting a player that you misevaluated so badly that it is years later and he can barely crack the lineup. Brutal.

Naw, Duchene was. Stone can’t stay healthy and is not close to being worth his salary because of it. Bad back is the end of the story.

Duchene would still be awesome for us if we could have kept him.

 

[GCK]

Should have been our captain. Debrincat trade is awesome. But it comes after giving away Zibanejad, giving away Stone, giving away Hoffman, etc

Hoffman was a special case and shouldn’t be lumped in with Stone and Zibanejad.

 

[GCK]

I wonder if the Melnyk sisters being neophytes at franchise ownership and running a business is a good thing. Listening to your executives like Leblanc and Crowe and letting the hockey side make the hockey decisions is nice after having a know it all own the team. Hopefully the new owners are not like Euge.

 

[Micklebot]

Hoffman was a special case and shouldn’t be lumped in with Stone and Zibanejad.

The Hoffman deal isn't bad because we didn't get a great return, it's bad because we took a cap dump instead of the futures SJ turned around and sent him off for immediately after. Hoffman's value was compromised, would have been nice to get a 1st for him at the deadline prior (he was rumoured to be on the market) but we missed that boat and all hell broke loose in the summer, shit happens. But there was clearly a better deal to be had with Florida. We miss-identified Boedker as useful...

 

[R2010]

The Hoffman deal isn't bad because we didn't get a great return, it's bad because we took a cap dump instead of the futures SJ turned around and sent him off for immediately after. Hoffman's value was compromised, would have been nice to get a 1st for him at the deadline prior (he was rumoured to be on the market) but we missed that boat and all hell broke loose in the summer, shit happens. But there was clearly a better deal to be had with Florida. We miss-identified Boedker as useful...

Very good points.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

As far as I can tell, this was the "ideal" for us leading up to the draft:

1) Trade Murray (25% ret) + 7th overall for 16th overall
2) Trade 16th, 39th, and either two future 3rds (rather than the just 1) or a future 2nd for Debrincat
3) Trade MDZ for Kassian, probably with a future 3rd or so included coming our way, to recoup some of the picks

Not perfect but a decent plan if we managed to pull it off, imo. Although I woulda cut out trade #3. No need for Kassian and no pressing need to add picks.

Looks like we will need to give up a lot more to dump Murray (not to mention MDZ).

 

[Micklebot]

As far as I can tell, this was the "ideal" for us leading up to the draft:

1) Trade Murray (25% ret) + 7th overall for 16th overall
2) Trade 16th, 39th, and either two future 3rds (rather than the just 1) or a future 2nd for Debrincat
3) Trade MDZ for Kassian, probably with a future 3rd or so included coming our way, to recoup some of the picks

Not perfect but a decent plan if we managed to pull it off, imo. Although I woulda cut out trade #3. No need for Kassian and no pressing need to add picks.

Looks like we will need to give up a lot more to dump Murray (not to mention MDZ).

This seems like wishful thinking, why would Chicago see the difference between 7oa and 16 OA as a 3rd?

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

This seems like wishful thinking, why would Chicago see the difference between 7oa and 16 OA as a 3rd?

Maybe a 2nd, who knows, but we know that a deal was agreed upon with a 16th instead of a 7th. Dorion references an extra piece, but also mentioned how easy Davidson made it to get a deal done. Maybe the value was a bit higher than an extra 3rd or move from 3rd round to 2nd... maybe it was a 2023 pick instead of 2024. But I suspect it was a pick and I am sure it was outside of the 1st round.

 

[Micklebot]

Maybe a 2nd, who knows, but we know that a deal was agreed upon with a 16th instead of a 7th. Dorion references an extra piece, but also mentioned how easy Davidson made it to get a deal done. Maybe the value was a bit higher than an extra 3rd or move from 3rd round to 2nd... maybe it was a 2023 pick instead of 2024. But I suspect it was a pick and I am sure it was outside of the 1st round.

Idk, seems to go completely against historical trends. You're essentially saying the cost to dump 11.25 mil in salary (Murray as 25% retained) was a 3rd. It just doesn't add up. I mean, if cost a 2nd in 2019 to move from 14 to 11. moving from 26 to 22 cost a 2nd in 2018. It's hard to find trades where a team moves out of the top 10, but smaller moves of lower picks have cost more than what you're suggesting would be the higher end cost. I get every draft is unique but I feel like this is pushing it.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Idk, seems to go completely against historical trends. You're essentially saying the cost to dump 11.25 mil in salary (Murray as 25% retained) was a 3rd. It just doesn't add up. I mean, if cost a 2nd in 2019 to move from 14 to 11. moving from 26 to 22 cost a 2nd in 2018. It's hard to find trades where a team moves out of the top 10, but smaller moves of lower picks have cost more than what you're suggesting would be the higher end cost. I get every draft is unique but I feel like this is pushing it.

Well, the value is hard to pin down because it's "laundered" through another team. I just know that Dorion said it would have been an extra pick, and I know it wouldnt have been a 1st. Beyond that, sure, I am just speculating.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

 

[Sens72]

Doug Wilson Jr was let go of by the Sharks, would be a good candidate to replace Mann as Director of Amauter Scouting

 

[JackieDaytona]

Did dorion grow an evil goatee? Bizarro Pierre just killing trades.

Reckless violence on poor lil Dubas. Wow.

That thread on the trade mains is f***in golden.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Now I wonder what's going on with the top 4 d-man search. Is Marino still available with Malkin gone? A protected 1st rounder, Formenton, Brown should all be on the table for one.

 

[NyQuil]

Now I wonder what's going on with the top 4 d-man search. Is Marino still available with Malkin gone? A protected 1st rounder, Formenton, Brown should all be on the table for one.

Why is everyone trying to get rid of Formenton...

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Why is everyone trying to get rid of Formenton...

I don't want to get rid of him, but you're not getting a top-4 dman for scraps.