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Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

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swiftwin said:
I'm not saying signing Dadonov was a brilliant 200IQ move. All I'm saying is that the whole Duclair thing was way overblown, and basically a wash at the end of the day
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Tragedy said:
We don't need context. 3 is better than 5 and thus Dorion is 200IQ and we small brains just don't know it
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You're refusing to admit you were wrong, so you're resorting to straw man arguments dripped in sarcasm.

Why are you dying on this hill? Why do you refuse to admit you were wrong?
 
swiftwin said:
Nobody is calling him a genius for that.

I've said repeatedly that the whole thing was a wash, unlike some people who repeatedly claim that not signing Duclair was a mistake. It was not. It was a wash.

Simple as that.
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It's not that simple. Duclair provided positive value for the contract he ultimately signed in Florida, even if we didn't like the number at the time. He was worth that the year before with us and proved the hell out of it in Florida in year 2. Dadonov did not. The part that is a wash was that we were able to get out from under Dadonov, Dorion did well to get out, but we never did get an effective top 9 player out of anyone because we let the one guy that was that leave, so it's still a net negative.

Duclair was never going to move the needle for the ultimate goal, same as Dadonov, that deserves attention, but this is a case of not going with the devil you know and trying to upgrade and being burned by the guy you gave up on outperforming the guy you brought in for more money. Luckily, Dorion traded his contract away and brought in a 3rd and a placeholder while doing it. If you feel that wins you the argument, we can stop here and agree to disagree.
 
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StrakaCorvoHoffman said:
It's not that simple. Duclair provided positive value for the contract he ultimately signed in Florida, even if we didn't like the number at the time. He was worth that the year before with us and proved the hell out of it in Florida in year 2. Dadonov did not. The part that is a wash was that we were able to get out from under Dadonov, Dorion did well to get out, but we never did get an effective top 9 player out of anyone because we let the one guy that was that leave, so it's still a net negative.

Duclair was never going to move the needle for the ultimate goal, same as Dadonov, that deserves attention, but this is a case of not going with the devil you know and trying to upgrade and being burned by the guy you gave up on outperforming the guy you brought in for more money. Luckily, Dorion traded his contract away and brought in a 3rd and a placeholder while doing it.
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Duclair provided positive value because he signed for $1.6m. If that's was Duclair's demand to Dorion at the end of the 2019-20 season, we almost definitely would have re-signed him. The reason we didn't sign him was because he was likely going to arbitration. In arbitration, the comparables showed he would likely get something in the range of $3.5-4m.

Arbitration is always heavily dependent on stats. Duclair had good stats, but that it. He's also a winger (less valuable), he's also one-dimensional (less valuable), he's not a veteran leader (less valuable), he was also up for arbitration at a very uncertain time, in the middle of 2020, with a flat cap. We would have ended up with a negative value contract. The fact alone that the market dictated his value at around $1.6m instead of the $3.5-4m is proof of this. The fact that he was traded for a 5th rounder and a 4th line player at $3m instead of the $3.5-4m is even more evidence of his true value.

One dimensional middle-6 wingers are far less valuable than people think they are. These players constantly bounce around the league for so little. Just look at Zadina for example. Or, like Tolvanen, etc.
 
swiftwin said:
Duclair provided positive value because he signed for $1.6m. If that's was Duclair's demand to Dorion at the end of the 2019-20 season, we almost definitely would have re-signed him. The reason we didn't sign him was because he was likely going to arbitration. In arbitration, the comparables showed he would likely get something in the range of $3.5-4m.

Arbitration is always heavily dependent on stats. Duclair had good stats, but that it. He's also a winger (less valuable), he's also one-dimensional (less valuable), he's not a veteran leader (less valuable), he was also up for arbitration at a very uncertain time, in the middle of 2020, with a flat cap. We would have ended up with a negative value contract. The fact alone that the market dictated his value at around $1.6m instead of the $3.5-4m is proof of this. The fact that he was traded for a 5th rounder and a 4th line player at $3m instead of the $3.5-4m is even more evidence of his true value.

One dimensional middle-6 wingers are far less valuable than people think they are. These players constantly bounce around the league for so little. Just look at Zadina for example. Or, like Tolvanen, etc.
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I'm sorry, but Duclair's production on a per game basis is easily worthy 3.5-4 million as was his last season with us. He would have outproduced most of our forward group.

Him not being a center or a core player and a one dimensional winger applies to both players, so I'm not sure that needed as much attention there as it got.

It would have been short term and we had money to toss around, obviously. Going to arbitration with Duclair at that award would have been a better deal than Dadonov at his contract and we wouldn't have had a negative contract because he both earned it, and would have only been for 1-2 years at a time we had the room. Dorion made a bet and it didn't work out.

No matter how you slice it, we tried to upgrade and actually downgraded, even at his potential arbitration salary. The good part was Dorion recognized quickly that Dadonov wasn't going to work out, so he dealt him and got back a placeholder and a slightly higher pick than Duclair did, much later in a different cap environment as a cap casualty. The fact he was dealt and like Dadonov returned something, and no salary coming back, says it wasn't actually a negative contract, he just doesn't fit in Florida anymore.

None of this is going to mean shit in the grand scheme of things, but I still think you're off base.
 
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StrakaCorvoHoffman said:
I'm sorry, but Duclair's production on a per game basis is easily worthy 3.5-4 million as was his last season with us. He would have outproduced most of our forward group.

Him not being a center or a core player and a one dimensional winger applies to both players, so I'm not sure that needed as much attention there as it got.

It would have been short term and we had money to toss around, obviously. Going to arbitration with Duclair at that award would have been a better deal than Dadonov at his contract and we wouldn't have had a negative contract because he both earned it, and would have only been for 1-2 years at a time we had the room. Dorion made a bet and it didn't work out.

No matter how you slice it, we tried to upgrade and actually downgraded, even at his potential arbitration salary. The good part was Dorion recognized quickly that Dadonov wasn't going to work out, so he dealt him and got back a slightly higher pick than Duclair did, plus a placeholder.

None of this is going to mean shit in the grand scheme of things, but I still think you're off base.
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So, basically, we both agree with the fact that that this doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things, and that it was a wash thanks to Dorion being able to trade Dadonov while he still had positive value.

Where you're stuck, is that you still seem to think Duclair has value at $3.5-4m. He clearly doesn't. The unrestricted contract market dictated that he was worth $1.6m, then $3m. The trade market dictated that he was worth a 5th round and a 4th liner at $3m. What would his trade value been at $3.5-4m? Probably nothing at all. Those are just the simple facts.
 
swiftwin said:
So, basically, we both agree with the fact that that this doesn't mean shit in the grand scheme of things, and that it was a wash thanks to Dorion being able to trade Dadonov while he still had positive value.

Where you're stuck, is that you still seem to think Duclair has value at $3.5-4m. He clearly doesn't. The unrestricted contract market dictated that he was worth $1.6m, then $3m. The trade market dictated that he was worth a 5th round and a 4th liner at $3m. What would his trade value been at $3.5-4m? Probably nothing at all. Those are just the simple facts.
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We agree that this was all occurring during seasons that we ended up in the gutter and ultimately meant nothing because they sucked so bad, so obviously on ice didn't matter, and Duclair would have expired by now had they wanted out from his salary, so our books could be clean if desired, no matter the scenario.

They were both dealt for positive value and the cap environments were so different its not reasonable to draw conclusions from comparing the returns. A 3rd vs. a 5th is basically what we're reduced to and they were dealt at different times with much different circumstances. And you're saying an extra 500k-1mil would have changed that to the point of being a net negative, which I disagree with. He was dealt for pick, a placeholder, and no salary coming back as was FLA's obviuos priority, so I think it actually shows he still had some decent value. Look at the market this year, it's absolute shit for moving salary so I don't know how you see it as factual.
 
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If he signs Tarasenko then Dorion gets my vote of approval. For all the people speaking in hindsight about the 7th OA pick; we didn't know Debrincat was a bitch who only wanted to play for Detroit. The package Dorion was able to get back is decent, not great but good enough.

Kubalik + Tarasenko >> Debrincat
 
Adele Dazeem said:
If he signs Tarasenko then Dorion gets my vote of approval. For all the people speaking in hindsight about the 7th OA pick; we didn't know Debrincat was a bitch who only wanted to play for Detroit. The package Dorion was able to get back is decent, not great but good enough.

Kubalik + Tarasenko >> Debrincat
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Go away
 
Looks like Yzerman is committing to 4-5 year deals with his players. Detroit is in an excellent cap situation. They just need to get lucky in the lotto an they’ll be a huge problem.
 
Adele Dazeem said:
If he signs Tarasenko then Dorion gets my vote of approval. For all the people speaking in hindsight about the 7th OA pick; we didn't know Debrincat was a bitch who only wanted to play for Detroit. The package Dorion was able to get back is decent, not great but good enough.

Kubalik + Tarasenko >> Debrincat
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in what world is tarasenko and kulabik better than DBC? Literal quantity for quality

People need to realize that Tarasenko has lost a couple of steps hence why he is still on the market
 
HSF said:
in what world is tarasenko and kulabik better than DBC? Literal quantity for quality

People need to realize that Tarasenko has lost a couple of steps hence why he is still on the market
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So we traded 7th overall, 2, 3, DeBricat for Kubalik, a mid 1rst, 4 and Sebrango who split the year between the echl, ahl and is the 14th rated detroit prospect? Is this right?
 
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