Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

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swiftwin

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Hmm even under such strenuous circumstances, they got *something* for Duclair. Sens got nothing. It defies logic at that time and still continues to defy logic. If sens were up against the cap at the time as some other teams this offseason, then there’s some logic and reasoning to not risk an arb award but still continue grinding towards a contract (like Blackwood and SJ). Instead all we heard from Dorion was some excuses about how Duclair changed agents and stuff. So sick of the drama with Dorion (and I’ll say even Bryan Murray was guilty of this)
The Sens went and signed Dadonov instead, which they traded for a 3rd and Holden, which is more than than Duclair got.

Also, Duclair went for $1.6m that summer, not the $3.5-4m he would have gotten if it went to arbitration.

Any way you slice it, letting Duclair go was the right move.

You were wrong. Get over it.
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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The Sens went and signed Dadonov instead, which they traded for a 3rd and Holden, which is more than than Duclair got.

Also, Duclair went for $1.6m that summer, not the $3.5-4m he would have gotten if it went to arbitration.

Any way you slice it, letting Duclair go was the right move.

You were wrong. Get over it.
Other than Duclair outproducing Dadonov by a solid margin, in significantly less games. Even bigger spread for him the next season. Then he ruptured his achilies which obviously impacted a lot here.

At equal salaries, it appears Duclair was a much better use of said money. At the much lower salary, it's not even a debate.

Holden was a placeholder we let walk, so the difference is basically a 3rd to a 5th. We throw those around pretty liberally anyways.

Still don't get how this is a slam dunk brag point, especially considering the injury impacting so much in this context.
 

SensHulk

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The Sens went and signed Dadonov instead, which they traded for a 3rd and Holden, which is more than than Duclair got.

Also, Duclair went for $1.6m that summer, not the $3.5-4m he would have gotten if it went to arbitration.

Any way you slice it, letting Duclair go was the right move.

You were wrong. Get over it.
Your argument to letting go of Duclair was so we could sign an inferior dadonov and get a return of holden and a 3rd? Lol boy that’s a reach if I’ve ever heard one

As far as letting it go, I believe you brought up the topic and have been refuted by several others. Buy you do you

EDIT: actually screw the high road. No, swiftwin, you *are* wrong. Hope you can cope with Dorion’s imminent dismissal
 

Mark Stones Spleen

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Other than Duclair outproducing Dadonov by a solid margin, in significantly less games. Even bigger spread for him the next season. Then he ruptured his achilies which obviously impacted a lot here.

At equal salaries, it appears Duclair was a much better use of said money. At the much lower salary, it's not even a debate.

Holden was a placeholder we let walk, so the difference is basically a 3rd to a 5th. We throw those around pretty liberally anyways.

Still don't get how this is a slam dunk brag point, especially considering the injury impacting so much in this context.
Yeah but Dorion obviously knew Duclair was going to get injured, he planned ahead.
 

Burrowsaurus

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I might be on an island but moving Debrincat makes this team better. He is not a core piece and his cap space can be better used.
Ok so moving Debrincat doesn’t make us better

Moving Debrincat and better using his cap space makes us better.

Im
Not sure I trust the pro scouts to use the 9 million well
 
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Mingus Dew

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Ok so moving Debrincat doesn’t make us better

Moving Debrincat and better using his cap space makes us better.

Im
Not sure I trust the pro scouts to use the 9 million well

If we are going to start winning we need to make the right moves in these situations.

Might as well rebuild again if the org is just gonna waste $9mm. At some point it’s got to get better.
 
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Burrowsaurus

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If we are going to start winning we need to make the right moves in these situations.

Might as well rebuild again if the org is just gonna waste $9mm. At some point it’s got to get better.
Well I suspect we will be rebuilding without winning much
 

Tragedy

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Other than Duclair outproducing Dadonov by a solid margin, in significantly less games. Even bigger spread for him the next season. Then he ruptured his achilies which obviously impacted a lot here.

At equal salaries, it appears Duclair was a much better use of said money. At the much lower salary, it's not even a debate.

Holden was a placeholder we let walk, so the difference is basically a 3rd to a 5th. We throw those around pretty liberally anyways.

Still don't get how this is a slam dunk brag point, especially considering the injury impacting so much in this context.
Note how he won't respond to this lol

I pointed this out a few pages ago and he just ignored it because even in his little cognitive dissonance world, he can't reconcile how paying more money for Dadonov to have less production was a good thing because 3 years later Duclair returned less on trade after a massive almost season long injury makes any sense
 
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swiftwin

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Your argument to letting go of Duclair was so we could sign an inferior dadonov and get a return of holden and a 3rd? Lol boy that’s a reach if I’ve ever heard one

As far as letting it go, I believe you brought up the topic and have been refuted by several others. Buy you do you

EDIT: actually screw the high road. No, swiftwin, you *are* wrong. Hope you can cope with Dorion’s imminent dismissal
"inferior dadonov"

Why did Dadonov score 13, while Duclair scored 10?
Why did Duclair only go for $1.6m, while Dadonov got $5m?
Why was Dadonov traded for a 3rd and a depth player, while Duclair got a 5th and a depth player?

You were wrong.

Deal.

With.

It.
 
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BonHoonLayneCornell

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Note how he won't respond to this lol

I pointed this out a few pages ago and he just ignored it because even in his little cognitive dissonance world, he can't reconcile how paying more money for Dadonov to have less production was a good thing because 3 years later Duclair returned less on trade after a massive almost season long injury makes any sense
They seem like important details to me. You'd think if you're gonna be so forceful and condescending with the argument that these things would be considered and/or refuted. Oh well, it's all good, just putting my 2 cents in.
 

swiftwin

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Note how he won't respond to this lol

I pointed this out a few pages ago and he just ignored it because even in his little cognitive dissonance world, he can't reconcile how paying more money for Dadonov to have less production was a good thing because 3 years later Duclair returned less on trade after a massive almost season long injury makes any sense
The injury is a red herring.

I'm not saying signing Dadonov was a brilliant 200IQ move. All I'm saying is that the whole Duclair thing was way overblown, and basically a wash at the end of the day. Duclair was clearly not worth the $3.5-4m he was going to get in arbitration, as proven by the $1.6m he got in free agency, and his value was clearly not as high as others around here make it out to be since he was traded for less than Dadonov.

At the end of the day, the whole thing was a nothingburger.

They seem like important details to me. You'd think if you're gonna be so forceful and condescending with the argument that these things would be considered and/or refuted. Oh well, it's all good, just putting my 2 cents in.
Maybe you should go further back in the thread. I'm not the condescending one here. I'm not the one who called others stupid and "bootlickers".

In the face of a constant barrage of hostility and toxicity, you're damn right I'm going to bring it up when I'm eventually proven right. Especially when I'm bumping stuff that was said just last month.
 

Tragedy

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"inferior dadonov"

Why did Dadonov score 13, while Duclair scored 10?
Why did Duclair only go for $1.6m, while Dadonov got $5m?
Why was Dadonov traded for a 3rd and a depth player, while Duclair got a 5th and a depth player?

You were wrong.

Deal.

With.

It.
We just gonna casually ignore assists as if they don't count or..?

We just gonna pretend his achilles tear and him not playing most of the year doesn't at all impact the trade value?

Huh.

Can I live in your world please?
 

BonHoonLayneCornell

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Maybe you should go further back in the thread. I'm not the condescending one here. I'm not the one who called others stupid and "bootlickers".

In the face of a constant barrage of hostility and toxicity, you're damn right I'm going to bring it up when I'm eventually proven right. Especially when I'm bumping stuff that was said just last month.
I will give you that there is some hostility that feeds into your own hostile response. That's the way this place seems to go. I still think you're wrong though and you should find points that are not as easily refutable to talk down to anyone that attempted to do the same to you.
 
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swiftwin

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We just gonna casually ignore assists as if they don't count or..?

We just gonna pretend his achilles tear and him not playing most of the year doesn't at all impact the trade value?

Huh.

Can I live in your world please?
If the achilles tear significantly impacts his trade value, then Dorion must be a f***ing genius for getting a 1st, 2nd and a conditional 3rd for Pageau after he tore his achilles.
 
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BonHoonLayneCornell

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If the achilles tear significantly impacts his trade value, then Dorion must be a f***ing genius for getting a 1st, 2nd and a conditional 3rd for Pageau after he tore his achilles.
How many more games had Pageau played after the injury compared to Duclair? It appears he came back that same year then played almost a full year and significantly exceeded his typical production, then was dealt in his prime with an extension negotiated.

And was his team up against the cap needing to shed some as the priority in the worst cap environment seen in years? A Dadonov trade now would have looked similar to what Duclair brought back, and likely isn't even doable at his higher salary.
 

Tragedy

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Why isn’t Dorion fired yet? New owners need to expedite the process!
New owners don't own the team yet

How many more games had Pageau played after the injury compared to Duclair? It appears he came back that same year then played almost a full year and significantly exceeded his typical production, then was dealt in his prime with an extension negotiated.

And was his team up against the cap needing to shed some as the priority in the worst cap environment seen in years? A Dadonov trade now would have looked similar to what Duclair brought back, and likely isn't even doable at his higher salary.
We don't need context. 3 is better than 5 and thus Dorion is 200IQ and we small brains just don't know it
 

SensHulk

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"inferior dadonov"

Why did Dadonov score 13, while Duclair scored 10?
Why did Duclair only go for $1.6m, while Dadonov got $5m?
Why was Dadonov traded for a 3rd and a depth player, while Duclair got a 5th and a depth player?

You were wrong.

Deal.

With.

It.
LOL I mean they were traded in completely different years and for different reasons (Duclair a cap casualty) but I see logic not only defies Dorion but you as well.

Here’s a comparable for you:
 
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BonHoonLayneCornell

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We don't need context. 3 is better than 5 and thus Dorion is 200IQ and we small brains just don't know it
I just don't get why it's so black and white to them. Hollow argument with way too many variables happening imo. There are times where you're obviously right and if you really want to, you can hang it over people, but this isn't it.
 

UglyPuckling

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Other than Duclair outproducing Dadonov by a solid margin, in significantly less games. Even bigger spread for him the next season. Then he ruptured his achilies which obviously impacted a lot here.

At equal salaries, it appears Duclair was a much better use of said money. At the much lower salary, it's not even a debate.

Holden was a placeholder we let walk, so the difference is basically a 3rd to a 5th. We throw those around pretty liberally anyways.

Still don't get how this is a slam dunk brag point, especially considering the injury impacting so much in this context.
The fact that Duclair did not take Ottawa's offer was a mistake. But it is certainly a distinctly separate subject and has really nothing to do with the debate on Duclair versus Dadonov and the assets obtained from trading Dadonov. But it seems like it's an emotionally charged thing for some. Perhaps the thinking is that because Duclair snubbed Ottawa, everything that happened afterwards has to be better as Duclair deserves the subsequent ire of those people. I guess I'm trying to find a rationale why some individuals are ostensibly significantly downplaying Duclair's performance post Ottawa. I mean Duclair's regular season and playoff play was pretty decent for those that were watching.
 
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BonHoonLayneCornell

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The fact that Duclair made a mistake by not taking Ottawa's offer is certainly a distinctly separate subject and has really nothing to do with the debate on Duclair versus Dadonov and the assets obtained from trading Dadonov. But it seems like it's an emotionally charged thing for some where perhaps is the thinking that because Duclair snubbed Ottawa everything that happened afterwards has to be better because Duclair deserves the subsequent ire of those people. I guess I'm trying to find a rationale why some individuals are ostensibly significantly downplaying Duclair's performance post Ottawa.
For sure. There's so much going on with the two scenarios involved. And I'm not trying to slight anyone because it goes two ways here. I can even see where they're trying to go with it and why they see it as a W for their argument, but it just isn't that imo, not even in the ball park.

I'm not gonna call a guy a genius for walking away from one guy, signing another for quite a bit more + term, having to trade said underperforming signing for a 3rd and a placeholder, while the guy you originally sent packing has been the better player the whole time, or has at least outproduced him at a pretty solid clip. Then that guy is dealt as a cap casualty right after his shortened season due to major injury. It does appear emotional because there's little rationality there imo.
 
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swiftwin

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LOL I mean they were traded in completely different years and for different reasons (Duclair a cap casualty) but I see logic not only defies Dorion but you as well.

Here’s a comparable for you:

So, Duclair's value was low enough that he was deemed a cap casualty at $3M?

But Dadonov at $5m with no retention had more value to a team like Vegas who's constantly battling cap issues, especially in the middle of a flat cap caused by covid???

You're the one being stubborn as a mule here. Duclair simply does not have the value everyone around here claims he had.

For sure. There's so much going on with the two scenarios involved. And I'm not trying to slight anyone because it goes two ways here. I can even see where they're trying to go with it and why they see it as a W for their argument, but it just isn't that imo, not even in the ball park.

I'm not gonna call a guy a genius for walking away from one guy, signing another, having to trade said underperforming signing for a 3rd and a placeholder, while the guy you originally sent packing has been the better player the whole time, or has at least outproduced him at a pretty solid clip. It does appear emotional because there's little rationality there imo.
Nobody is calling him a genius for that.

I've said repeatedly that the whole thing was a wash, unlike some people who repeatedly claim that not signing Duclair was a mistake. It was not. It was a wash.

Simple as that.
 
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