Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Do Make Say Think]

Better and faster?

Find me another team that has completed a full scorched earth rebuild in 5 years or less despite the team's (original) picks not winning a single lottery or picking top 3.

I am evaluating his performance and find it to be lacking because he has made massive unforced errors like trading for Brassard, Duchene, Murray and now DBC (and those just the really bad ones, he's made plenty of other just bad trades).

I doesn't take much of an analytical mind to understand that making big trades like that backfire set us back big time before and during the rebuild.

But you are only interested in telling people on here "you are wrong". You should go outside more.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I am evaluating his performance and find it to be lacking because he has made massive unforced errors like trading for Brassard, Duchene, Murray and now DBC (and those just the really bad ones, he's made plenty of other just bad trades).

I doesn't take much of an analytical mind to understand that making big trades like that backfire set us back big time before and during the rebuild.

But you are only interested in telling people on here "you are wrong". You should go outside more.

Exactly.

The Macro is most important, but the micro still matters and plays in to any assessment.

 

[swiftwin]

I am evaluating his performance and find it to be lacking because he has made massive unforced errors like trading for Brassard, Duchene, Murray and now DBC.

I doesn't take much of an analytical mind to understand that making big trades like that backfire set us back big time before and during the rebuild.

Brassard and Duchene were not acquired during the rebuild. They have nothing to do with the rebuild.

Murray has not "set back the rebuild big time". What a ridiculous statement. He was a low-risk potentially high-reward move that didn't pan out. Big whoop. The team will never come out of a rebuild if all you care about is asset management and refuse to take on a little bit of risk. DBC has also not set back the rebuild. If anything, he has helped us tremendously last year to be a more competitive team and made us a huge threat on the PP. Plus we don't even know what we're getting back for him yet. You're just assuming we're going to get ripped off because you're biased and unable to look at things objectively. What happens if we get most of the value back in the upcoming trade??? People used to shit on the Dadonov signing non-stop, saying we doomed ourselves to an anchor of a contract. Yet Dorion managed to get some (free) assets out of him. Now we haven't heard peep about how "horrible" that signing was since. The lesson here: don't get ahead of yourself.

 

[bert]

Better and faster?

Find me another team that has completed a full scorched earth rebuild in 5 years or less despite the team's (original) picks not winning a single lottery or picking top 3.


....right, and you're also refusing how acknowledge the difference between the Duchene and DBC scenarios. Duchene wanted out because of the team, DBC wants out because of the city/country.

Plus, you're acting like we're losing DBC for nothing. We don't even know what we're getting back for him yet. We could recoup most, if not all of the value we gave up.

You actually dont understand the concept of finding out if the player is going to sign or willing to sign with your team before making the deal? FFS. Also it doesnt matter why they dont want to be here its the fact that they dont. What a reach.

They arent getting back what they gave up for him just like Duchene its the exact same situation.

Buffalo and New Jersey started with less and are both in better positions and are currently having more success. They both have way deeper prospect pools. Relative to the competition its not going well.

What are you going to do when Dorion is fired. I cant imagine you will be ok.

 

[swiftwin]

You actually dont understand the concept of finding out if the player is going to sign or willing to sign with your team before making the deal? FFS. Also it doesnt matter why they dont want to be here its the fact that they dont. What a reach.

They arent getting back what they gave up for him just like Duchene its the exact same situation.

What are you going to do when Dorion is fired. I cant imagine you will be ok.

Bruh. You're the one who's obsessed with Dorion.

I don't care about Dorion. All I care is that he's making the right moves to help the team get better in the long run. All I have done for years is argue that the moves he's made have generally helped the team in the long run. So far, I've been proven right, and you've been proven wrong. The rebuild is progressing nicely, thanks to Dorion.

Going forward, if he fails to keep the team progressing in the right direction, I want to see him fired. For example, if we don't make the playoffs next year, I want to see him fired.

The league is results based. Simple as that. I don't hold personal vendettas. For years, Dorion had the mandate to rebuild the team. He has done that. Now, the mandate is to make the playoffs and be competitive. If he can't do that, he needs to go.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Brassard and Duchene were not acquired during the rebuild. They have nothing to do with the rebuild.

Murray has not "set back the rebuild big time". What a ridiculous statement. He was a low-risk potentially high-reward move that didn't pan out. Big whoop. The team will never come out of a rebuild if all you care about is asset management and refuse to take on a little bit of risk. DBC has also not set back the rebuild. If anything, he has helped us tremendously last year to be a more competitive team and made us a huge threat on the PP. Plus we don't even know what we're getting back for him yet. You're just assuming we're going to get ripped off because you're biased and unable to look at things objectively. What happens if we get most of the value back in the upcoming trade??? People used to shit on the Dadonov signing non-stop, saying we doomed ourselves to an anchor of a contract. Yet Dorion managed to get some (free) assets out of him. Now we haven't heard peep about how "horrible" that signing was since. The lesson here: don't get ahead of yourself.

I'm fine with risk taking.

But when you make a lot of very risky moves that don't work and set us back, you aren't very good at taking risks.

Do you ever try to process information or read?

I know Brassard and Duchene were not during the rebuild. They were still big, risky moves that were unforced and completely backfired which is one of the main criteria I use to evaluate Dorion's performance.

 

[bert]

Bruh. You're the one who's obsessed with Dorion.

I don't care about Dorion. All I care is that he's making the right moves to help the team get better in the long run. All I have done for years is argue that the moves he's made have generally helped the team in the long run. So far, I've been proven right, and you've been proven wrong. The rebuild is progressing nicely, thanks to Dorion.

Going forward, if he fails to keep the team progressing in the right direction, I want to see him fired. For example, if we don't make the playoffs next year, I want to see him fired.

The league is results based. Simple as that. I don't hold personal vendettas. For years, Dorion had the mandate to rebuild the team. He has done that. Now, the mandate is to make the playoffs and be competitive. If he can't do that, he needs to go.

He has had 6 years to tear down a team that went to the ECF they are behind their counter parts (NJD and Buffalo) and have no picks and prospect depth in comparison. He has traded two top 7 picks for players and sold them the next year.

You are damn right its results based.

Its literally the exact opposite of you being wrong based on your own criteria. He has lost 80% of the trades he has made from a value perspective.

 

[swiftwin]

I'm fine with risk taking.

But when you make a lot of very risky moves that don't work and set us back, you aren't very good at taking risks.

Do you ever try to process information?

How much has Murray set us back? Seriously. A 2nd round pick is absolutely worth a shot at potentially having a long term cup winning #1 goalie. Dorion made the move when the stakes were really low (rebuilding team with low expectations). What's even funnier is that even Dubas thought it was worth taking on that same risk in a much higher stakes environment. Yet people hold Dubas on a pedestal.

He has had 6 years to tear down a team that went to the ECF they are behind their counter parts (NJD and Buffalo) and have no picks and prospect depth in comparison. He has traded two top 7 picks for players and sold them the next year.

You are damn right its results based.

Its literally the exact opposite of you being wrong based on your own criteria. He has lost 80% of the trades he has made from a value perspective.

What on earth are you talking about? Buffalo and New Jersey have been rebuilding for way longer than we have, and they both have multiple 1st overall picks to boot.

I find hilarious that you still think you know better than the entire hockey world.

 

[Beech]

How much has Murray set us back? Seriously. A 2nd round pick is absolutely worth a shot at potentially having a long term cup winning #1 goalie. Dorion made the move when the stakes were really low (rebuilding team with low expectations). What's even funnier is that even Dubas thought it was worth taking on that same risk in a much higher stakes environment. Yet people hold Dubas on a pedestal.


What on earth are you talking about? Buffalo and New Jersey have been rebuilding for way longer than we have, and they both have multiple 1st overall picks to boot.

I find hilarious that you still think you know better than the entire hockey world.

they fired Dubas!!!

 

[swiftwin]

they fired Dubas!!!

...and he got rehired a week later.

Also, he got fired because of lots of drama surrounding his negotiations with Shanahan. They were going to extend him.

I just find it hilarious that Dorion gets a ton of shit for taking a chance on Murray when the stakes were low, but Dubas got little for taking on the same risk when the stakes were ridiculously high.

 

[Micklebot]

Except we haven't? The only one we overpaid for was Stepan.

Dorion literally admitted the ask for Hamonic was a 4th but since we didn't have one we have them a 3rd, general consensus from the talking heads at the time was shock that Van got so much for him.

 

[bert]

How much has Murray set us back? Seriously. A 2nd round pick is absolutely worth a shot at potentially having a long term cup winning #1 goalie. Dorion made the move when the stakes were really low (rebuilding team with low expectations). What's even funnier is that even Dubas thought it was worth taking on that same risk in a much higher stakes environment. Yet people hold Dubas on a pedestal.


What on earth are you talking about? Buffalo and New Jersey have been rebuilding for way longer than we have, and they both have multiple 1st overall picks to boot.

I find hilarious that you still think you know better than the entire hockey world.

Just you when it comes to evaluating the job Pierre Dorion has done with this rebuild.

As if you are defending the Murray trade too haha. Hence my previous sentence. Dubas is just as bad. He is terrible at his job too in my opinion.

As if you are still defending the Duchene, Murray, Zibanejad, Stone, Gustavsson, Debrincat, Paul etc etc etc deals. Its wild.

Like do you actually think its ok to trade wild draft capital for players you dont know if they are going to commit to your oganization. Its asinine.

 

[swiftwin]

Just you when it comes to evaluating the job Pierre Dorion has done with this rebuild.

As if you are defending the Murray trade too haha. Hence my previous sentence. Dubas is just as bad. He is terrible at his job too in my opinion.

As if you are still defending the Duchene, Murray, Zibanejad, Stone, Gustavsson, Debrincat, Paul etc etc etc deals. Its wild.

Are you suggesting that Dorion has done a poor job at the rebuild?

 

[bert]

Are you suggesting that Dorion has done a poor job at the rebuild?

Yes. Do you think its going well missing the playoffs for 6 straight seasons and having no picks and prospects in the pool?.... Your standards are so unbelievably low its beyond comprehension.

Literally yesterday a D man he traded won a norris (and thats his best trade) and a forward he traded just captained a team to the cup.

 

[swiftwin]

Yes. Do you think its going well missing the playoffs for 6 straight seasons and having no picks and prospects in the pool?.... Your standards are so unbelievably low its beyond comprehension.

The entire hockey world disagrees with you.

 

[bert]

The entire hockey world disagrees with you.

No the entire hockey world doesnt think Dorion is good at his job and has done a good job with the rebuild.

 

[swiftwin]

No the entire hockey world doesnt think Dorion is good at his job and has done a good job with the rebuild.

It's impossible to have a rational discussion with you when you are clearly so obsessed with Dorion that you can't look at things objectively. You just keep digging deeper instead of admitting you were wrong.

 

[bert]

It's impossible to have a rational discussion with you when you are clearly so obsessed with Dorion that you can't look at things objectively. You just keep digging deeper instead of admitting you were wrong.

I am the one thats obsessed?... You defend him to no end. I break down every deal he has done and look at it from a value perspective. I actually want to see this team win. You are in the minority. What a waste of time lol. Agree to dissagree and when he gets fired which he will I cant wait to see how you spin it.

 

[Beech]

...and he got rehired a week later.

Also, he got fired because of lots of drama surrounding his negotiations with Shanahan. They were going to extend him.

I just find it hilarious that Dorion gets a ton of shit for taking a chance on Murray when the stakes were low, but Dubas got little for taking on the same risk when the stakes were ridiculously high.

There I agree. Dubas is way worse..

Dorion suspected issues, and with covid and with tight budgets may not have been up 100% up to speed on Murray. So he threw a dart.

Dubas!!! WAHHHHH... Like running off a cliff, after you saw the warning signes, the police waving you to stop and the temporary barriers.

Duabs, should never have been re-hired. Neither should his replacement in TO.. But that is my slant and belongs on a different thread

 

[swiftwin]

I am the one thats obsessed?... You defend him to no end. I break down every deal he has done and look at it from a value perspective. I actually want to see this team win. You are in the minority. What a waste of time lol. Agree to dissagree and when he gets fired which he will I cant wait to see how you spin it.

You're the one in the minority. The entire hockey world agrees that Dorion has done a good job with the rebuild.

I don't defend Dorion to no end. I just saw the long term value in the moves he made over the course of his tenure as GM. So far, considering the state of the rebuild, and the overwhelming consensus of the hockey world, I've been proven right, and you've been proven wrong.

I've already made it clear that just because he has done a good job so far, doesn't mean he will do a good job forever. I've already said that if we don't make the playoffs this year, we should fire Dorion. Because, unlike you, I understand this is a result based business. The result of Dorion's rebuild so far has been good. Now we need to see continued progress. If he can't deliver, he needs to go.

 

[inthewings]

I am the one thats obsessed?... You defend him to no end. I break down every deal he has done and look at it from a value perspective. I actually want to see this team win. You are in the minority. What a waste of time lol. Agree to dissagree and when he gets fired which he will I cant wait to see how you spin it.

You're 100% being trolled btw

 

[bert]

You're the one in the minority. The entire hockey world agrees that Dorion has done a good job with the rebuild.

I don't defend Dorion to no end. I just saw the long term value in the moves he made over the course of his tenure as GM. So far, considering the state of the rebuild, and the overwhelming consensus of the hockey world, I've been proven right, and you've been proven wrong.

I've already made it clear that just because he has done a good job so far, doesn't mean he will do a good job forever. I've already said that if we don't make the playoffs this year, we should fire Dorion. Because, unlike you, I understand this is a result based business. The result of Dorion's rebuild so far has been good. Now we need to see continued progress. If he can't deliver, he needs to go.

Hilarious comment when talking about Debrincat and Duchene deals. The results of not making the playoffs and having no picks to show for it yeah what a smashing success.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Sens have a bright future ≠ Dorion is a good GM.

If you tade away more talent than any other team in the last decade and then suck for 5 years and pick high in the draft, you're going to have a bright future, even if your GM gets bent over in the majority of deals he makes.

We have a good outlook in spite of Dorion's awful trades/signings, not because of him.

Thankfully pretty much everyone besides a couple people who I am convinced are relatives of Pierre are aware of this fact.

Hilarious comment when talking about Debrincat and Duchene deals. The results of not making the playoffs and having no picks to show for it yeah what a smashing success.

Murray worked out pretty good

 

[Ice-Tray]

To me, it sounded like he said 2 separate things within 1 continuous thought.

1) he doesn't think they will end up with a 1RP this year and, separately, 2) 1RPs are not worth as much as GMs are thinking they are.

I don't know if it's just posturing to get better trade value for Debrincat or if they genuinely believe the draft, around where they would have picked, was not sufficiently deep to get a high-quality prospect or if they just don't value 1RPs as highly as they did before because they're looking to make the playoffs this year.

I guess I'd need to listen to the clip again to hear the exact phrasing he used.

Mike Johnson was in today saying the same thing. He said that there has been a shift in thinking and that GM’s don’t consider later 1st round picks as valuable as they used to.

This would explain the widening gap between difference between what fans think is valuable in terms of draft picks and what actual GMs think is valuable.

And this will be the last chance for this group to get to the playoffs and make some noise. Easy first round exit doesn’t do it.

Uhhhh now making the playoffs isn’t enough for you?

 

[Dionysus]

Having a lame duck GM who loves making splashy short-term trades is a recipe for disaster. Wouldn't have minded letting Dorion go and having Bowness step in as interim GM.