Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[bert]

Dorion absolutely struggles. We've seen him repeatedly fail in his evaluation of pro players (Stepan, Murray, Dadonov, Murray, Joseph, Duchene, Debrincat, Brassard etc...). Almost every NHL player he's brought in has flopped. Thank god Giroux wanted to come home.

Dont forget the ones that played here that were good that he gave away or gave up on. He has no ability to evaluate pro talent.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Dorion doesn’t struggle, the Ottawa Senators struggle to get vets to come to the small city with big taxes, during a rebuild.

Is that why he has tended to overpay for mediocre vets through trades as well?

You aren't as clever as you think you are.

 

[swiftwin]

Dont forget the ones that played here that were good that he gave away or gave up on. He has no ability to evaluate pro talent.

Or the ones that played good here and dumped before they regressed? Or the ones that were straight up good and we kept?

 

[bert]

Or the ones that played good here and dumped before they regressed? Or the ones that were straight up good and we kept?

Lets see em. Which players please tell me.

 

[swiftwin]

Is that why he has tended to overpay for mediocre vets through trades as well?

You aren't as clever as you think you are.

Except we haven't? The only one we overpaid for was Stepan.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Except we haven't? The only one we overpaid for was Stepan.

Can you at least try?

You can be a troll with mod backing but it is a lot more fun if you give an honest effort.

Dorion has never overpaid for anyone ever!

 

[swiftwin]

Lets see em. Which players please tell me.

Giroux, Zub, Hamonic, Forsberg. Even Watson filled his role well.

 

[swiftwin]

Can you at least try?

You can be a troll with mod backing but it is a lot more fun if you give an honest effort.

Dorion has never overpaid for anyone ever!

Bruh. You're the one who's trolling. The hockey world almost universally agrees that the Sens rebuild is coming along quite nicely. You're the one who's refusing to admit you were wrong about Dorion after all these years. You're the one who's raging after it's becoming clear that the new owner also agrees with this assessment.

You're so delusional, stuck in your echo chamber, and are overly obsessed with Dorion that it's preventing you from looking at the big picture rationally.

 

[bert]

Giroux, Zub, Hamonic, Forsberg. Even Watson filled his role well.

Giroux was a UFA signing that was coming here no matter what. Zub is one there ya go even Dorion couldnt blow that one. Forsberg did not live up to his contract last year. Watson didnt re-sign so I dont see how that counts. Hamonic has not re-signed either.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Giroux was a UFA signing that was coming here no matter what. Zub is one there ya go even Dorion couldnt blow that one. Forsberg did not live up to his contract last year. Watson didnt re-sign so I dont see how that counts. Hamonic has not re-signed either.

Zub came here because Dorion sucks. If Dorion didn't suck we wouldn't have had a D so bad that Zub and his agent knew we were his best chance at becoming a regular NHL player.

It has worked out well and Dorion has signed him to reasonable contracts so he does get some credit for sure; but the reason we got him is because our D was shit and that's on the GM.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Can you at least try?

You can be a troll with mod backing but it is a lot more fun if you give an honest effort.

Dorion has never overpaid for anyone ever!

Bruh. You're the one who's trolling. The hockey world almost universally agrees that the Sens rebuild is coming along quite nicely. You're the one who's refusing to admit you were wrong about Dorion after all these years. You're the one who's raging after it's becoming clear that the new owner also agrees with this assessment.

You're so delusional, stuck in your echo chamber, and are overly obsessed with Dorion that it's preventing you from looking at the big picture rationally.

You've both taken black and white positions. The truth is obviously somewhere in the middle. Plenty to justify moving on from Dorion, just the same as giving him another chance to see if he can put together a playoff roster. This is his chance and with how much change is coming, there's no way out if it fails.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Bruh. You're the one who's trolling. The hockey world almost universally agrees that the Sens rebuild is coming along quite nicely. You're the one who's refusing to admit you were wrong about Dorion after all these years. You're the one who's raging after it's becoming clear that the new owner also agrees with this assessment.

You're so delusional, stuck in your echo chamber, and are overly obsessed with Dorion that it's preventing you from looking at the big picture rationally.

Again, if you paid attention to who is who and who says what you'd know I only very recently got on board the "get rid of Dorion" train. I've never liked him but that is not a good reason to get rid of someone, a bad track record is however and his track record is established.

Alas, you are incapable of analysis.

You've both taken black and white positions. The truth is obviously somewhere in the middle. Plenty to justify moving on from Dorion, just the same as giving him another chance to see if he can put together a playoff roster. This is his chance and with how much change is coming, there's no way out if it fails.

I fail to see how my position of "Dorion has regularly overpayed for mediocre vets in trades" is extreme.

 

[swiftwin]

Giroux was a UFA signing that was coming here no matter what. Zub is one there ya go even Dorion couldnt blow that one. Forsberg did not live up to his contract last year. Watson didnt re-sign so I dont see how that counts. Hamonic has not re-signed either.

Watson is not getting re-signed because Dorion is good enough of a pro scout to know that Watson is no longer able to perform at the level he used to at his peak here. Because you know.... players age and regress. If there's one thing Dorion has been consistently good at is having the good pro scouting skills to know when to cut a player loose. Turris, Phaneuf, Brassard, Balcers, Dadonov are all players that Dorion managed to dump or got value from before they had a massive regression and had to get bought out or traded as a cap dump soon after we got rid of them.

Also, the idea that an intense competitor like Giroux was coming here "no matter what" is pure delusion. Yes, he obviously favored coming to him hometown, but he certainly wasn't doing it "no matter what". He came here because he felt this team was trending in the right direction and was going to be competitive in the immediate future.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Again, if you paid attention to who is who and who says what you'd know I only very recently got on board the "get rid of Dorion" train.

Alas, you are incapable of analysis.


I fail to see how my position of "Dorion has overpayed for mediocre vets in trades" is extreme.

Sorry, maybe you're right. I guess I mean in general every time this comes up. It seems to always be a case of either, it's so atrocious he should be fired, or what?!?! everyone including Kypreos loves our rebuild!

I think them giving him one last shot is reasonable, even if not my preferred choice, but arguing this is some slam dunk success is just dumb, just the same as if someone tries to say it's all been a failure.

 

[swiftwin]

Again, if you paid attention to who is who and who says what you'd know I only very recently got on board the "get rid of Dorion" train. I've never liked him but that is not a good reason to get rid of someone, a bad track record is however and his track record is established.

A bad track record in your imagination.

You've both taken black and white positions. The truth is obviously somewhere in the middle. Plenty to justify moving on from Dorion, just the same as giving him another chance to see if he can put together a playoff roster. This is his chance and with how much change is coming, there's no way out if it fails.

Oh f*** off with this enlightened centrism bullshit. When people are wrong, they are wrong.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Sens have a bright future ≠ Dorion is a good GM.

If you tade away more talent than any other team in the last decade and then suck for 5 years and pick high in the draft, you're going to have a bright future, even if your GM gets bent over in the majority of deals he makes.

We have a good outlook in spite of Dorion's awful trades/signings, not because of him.

Thankfully pretty much everyone besides a couple people who I am convinced are relatives of Pierre are aware of this fact.

 

[swiftwin]

Zub came here because Dorion sucks. If Dorion didn't suck we wouldn't have had a D so bad that Zub and his agent knew we were his best chance at becoming a regular NHL player.

It has worked out well and Dorion has signed him to reasonable contracts so he does get some credit for sure; but the reason we got him is because our D was shit and that's on the GM.

Zub came here because we were at the low point of the rebuild. That's the whole point of a rebuild. It's to tear it down, and bring new younger players in. Dorion has proven that he's capable of bringing in fresh young players through the draft as well as through pro scouting (Zub).

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Oh f*** off with this enlightened centrism bullshit. When people are wrong, they are wrong.

Lol. Very humble. You paint far too black and white of a picture as if this has been some resounding success. It damages your credibility and you obviously aren't willing to think critically on this.

 

[bert]

Watson is not getting re-signed because Dorion is good enough of a pro scout to know that Watson is no longer able to perform at the level he used to at his peak here. Because you know.... players age and regress. If there's one thing Dorion has been consistently good at is having the good pro scouting skills to know when to cut a player loose. Turris, Phaneuf, Brassard, Balcers, Dadonov are all players that Dorion managed to dump or got value from before they had a massive regression and had to get bought out or traded as a cap dump soon after we got rid of them.

Also, the idea that an intense competitor like Giroux was coming here "no matter what" is pure delusion. Yes, he obviously favored coming to him hometown, but he certainly wasn't doing it "no matter what". He came here because he felt this team was trending in the right direction and was going to be competitive in the immediate future.

I mean no, its not when you actually know the family.

Duclair, Paul, Connor Brown, Demelo all played well right in front of Dorion didnt retain any of them. Anyways I am not going down this road. You are incapable of looking at this objectively.

Like you clearly know the Duchene deal happened and now the exact same thing is happening with Debrincat. To look past it shows you arent willing to be objective at all.

So lets just agree to dissagree.

 

[swiftwin]

Sens have a bright future ≠ Dorion is a good GM.

If you tade away more talent than any other team in the last decade and then suck for 5 years and pick high in the draft, you're going to have a bright future, even if your GM gets bent over in the majority of deals he makes.

We have a good outlook in spite of Dorion's awful trades/signings, not because of him.

Thankfully pretty much everyone besides a couple people who I am convinced are relatives of Pierre are aware of this fact.

"Suck for 5 years and pick high in the draft" rarely ever works when the team's picks doesn't win a single lottery.

 

[swiftwin]

I mean no, its not when you actually know the family.

Duclair, Paul, Connor Brown, Demelo all played well right in front of Dorion didnt retain any of them. Anyways I am not going down this road. You are incapable of looking at this objectively.

Like you clearly know the Duchene deal happened and now the exact same thing is happening with Debrincat. To look past it shows you arent willing to be objective at all.

So lets just agree to dissagree.

I find it hilarious that you criticize Dorion for keeping players who want to go to free agency (DBC/Duchene) at the same time as you're criticizing Dorion for trading a player who also wanted to test free agency (Brown).

It's impossible to have a rational discussion with people like you who constantly have these double standards.

For the record, I was critical of the DeMelo trade at the time, and think it's one of Dorion's greater mistakes. Duclair was clearly a case of unrealistic contract negotiations in a super uncertain covid market (and he's still not that good, plus acquiring him in the first place was a huge win).

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Sorry, maybe you're right. I guess I mean in general every time this comes up. It seems to always be a case of either, it's so atrocious he should be fired, or what?!?! everyone including Kypreos loves our rebuild!

I think them giving him one last shot is reasonable, even if not my preferred choice, but arguing this is some slam dunk success is just dumb, just the same as if someone tries to say it's all been a failure.

The rebuild is going ok but with a good GM it likely would have gone better and faster.

I was a big defender of Dorion because of the Conman Melnyk handicap but that handicap is gone and Dorion has still made huge unforced errors. He is a bad GM.

Signing the core was great but hardly indicative of Dorion's ability as a GM since there was no good alternative (although giving an 8 year deal to bum shoulder Norris was very stupid/a huge risk). Making multiple big trades that severely backfire does show he is a weak GM.

 

[bert]

I find it hilarious that you criticize Dorion for keeping players who want to go to free agency (DBC/Duchene) at the same time as you're criticizing Dorion for trading a player who also wanted to test free agency (Brown).

It's impossible to have a rational discussion with people like you who constantly have these double standards.

For the record, I was critical of the DeMelo trade at the time, and think it's one of Dorion's greater mistakes. Duclair was clearly a case of unrealistic contract negotiations in a super uncertain covid market (and he's still not that good, plus acquiring him in the first place was a huge win).

They didnt give up massive amounts of draft capital for connor brown.... He also doesnt cost as much to retain. They arent relatable. The irony of you saying its not a rational discussion when you are comparing two completely different scenarios.

 

[swiftwin]

The rebuild is going ok but with a good GM it likely would have gone better and faster.

I was a big defender of Dorion because of the Conman Melnyk handicap but that handicap is gone and Dorion has still made huge unforced errors. He is a bad GM.

Better and faster?

Find me another team that has completed a full scorched earth rebuild in 5 years or less despite the team's (original) picks not winning a single lottery or picking top 3.

They didnt give up massive amounts of draft capital for connor brown.... He also doesnt cost as much to retain. They arent relatable. The irony of you saying its not a rational discussion when you are comparing two completely different scenarios.

....right, and you're also refusing how acknowledge the difference between the Duchene and DBC scenarios. Duchene wanted out because of the team, DBC wants out because of the city/country.

Plus, you're acting like we're losing DBC for nothing. We don't even know what we're getting back for him yet. We could recoup most, if not all of the value we gave up.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The rebuild is going ok but with a good GM it likely would have gone better and faster.

I was a big defender of Dorion because of the Conman Melnyk handicap but that handicap is gone and Dorion has still made huge unforced errors. He is a bad GM.

I agree mostly. I actually lobbied hard for Dorion to get the job and defended him all of year one. Summer after the run was when I started to question his decision making and has carried forward from there. But Melnyk was still in the picture and he was obviously a major issue.

Ultimately, I think they will come out of the fog okay for the next guy to have a strong base to work with, but a lot of what has happened matters and my faith in him to take the team to the next step is not there.