Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Micklebot]

Of course it does.

The only people that thought he had value were people that in here. PD said at time what he though Dahlens value was, something like our 7th best prospect or whatever.

This is of course wrong. Vancouver's GM obviously thought he had value since they moved an asset to acquire him.

His real life value was the player he returned, not what some HFSens posters dreamed that he could return.

So Burrows was a great acquisition but was had for nothing?

Thats a cheap way of thinking that I hope we can move on from. I’d much rather have a clutch NHL vet join the team for a stretch and playoff run, and maybe have to buy him out later if he doesn’t live up to his deal, then hold on to a prospect that you think is a long shot for the NHL to begin with. But that’s just me.

We disagree on what Burrows was at the time, it's fine. I'd have targeted a number of different guys ahead of him, and certainly wouldn't have extended him, but I was fine with trading Dahlen or any other prospect beyond the big three at the time (Brown, Chabot and White). Hey, I was definitely wrong about White and Brown, probably should have moved them for help, would have been able to get a killer return at that time and maybe it would have been enough to beat the pens.

 

[Amadeus]

Just wanted to come in and say I'd actually love Dorion to become GM of Toronto in the case the new ownership comes in and wants to bring their own person to run the Senators.

I've quietly admired Dorion's moves and feel he can do even better with the added resources that the Leafs can provide. Hope he brings Mann along with him.

 

[saskriders]

I can't believe people are still arguing about the Dahlen trade.

 

[Hockeysawks]

I can't believe people are still arguing about the Dahlen trade.

Or throwing Balacers in there. Or worried about some randrom trash bag that allowed us to draft Sanderson with suckyness

 

[Coffees]

Can you guys trade for a real goalie please?

No one wants to see this talented young core go to waste.

 

[Samsquanch]

I can't believe people are still arguing about the Dahlen trade.

The Dahlen trade is the stuff of legends, on HfSens.....and for all the wrong reasons.

And it's the same people that didn't allow the Dahlen trade talk to die that held out the longest on Brady Tkachuk. If you have been around here long enough, you will start to see patterns...

In truth Dahlen was the small/weak, offensively dynamic junior scorer that those same people always push for in the mid 1st/2nd round of every draft. But the Senators never take that kind of player there. Ever. I get it. He got the extra fanfare here because of that fact, imo.

And those normally salty people were now twice as salty as a result of trading him. Especially for what became a very polarizing player. And that's why we all still have to hear about Dahlen today in 2023.

 

[boxbox]

What do you mean? Every GM has a boss. Poor Dubas wasn't allowed to keep paying signing bonuses then trading players away?
Dubas stalled stalled stalled then lied so he could stall more, once the leafs were screwed he tried to steal Shanny's job and pay(making Shanny's job another waste of millions.)

He will be lucky to be hired anywhere and for some reason reporters are acting like he can pick the team he wants
Good luck with that

Everyone answers to someone unless you are the owner, of that I am well aware. Within most organizations is a structure in place consisting of various positions and their responsibilities/duties. The individuals hired for each position are carefully analyzed, interviewed and selected based on how strong the organization feels about the individuals ability to materialize the organizations future goals/vision.

How many successful franchises do you know where the owner sticks his nose often into matters meant to be the responsibility of a specific position within the organization assigned to an individual hired by the owner ? almost none. Just like when owners act as the GM. The various positions are in place on all teams for a reason. Take the Patriots for example, Belichick is well aware who his boss is and Belichicks boss ,R Kraft, is well aware of the happenings within his team, he is also well present around the team but what he does not do is interfere in any way into any aspect of Beichicks position. If Belichick screws up, its on him, end of story. Think of it like a healthy relationship built on trust, something evidently lacking between Shanahan and Dubas.

I never suggested Dubas was a great GM, never should have become one at such young age, before all that transpired in the past few weeks. My take on it is if one goes the other must go as well given the info that has surfaced., just as I now reserve my judgment of his performance as the GM . Who is not to say or assume now that maybe Shanahan heavily insisted the teams core was to be the big 4. To get his way he Ok'd the extensions amounts/terms. It does seem Shanahan is keen on keeping his boy band together.

Give credit where credit is due as regular season results under his reign were very good both on a team & individual level. Never really seen a team with that much talent struggle in the playoffs as the Leafs have year after year, the Capitals maybe ? but they lost series in which they clearly outplayed the opposition and had no part in historical collapses .

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

The Dahlen trade is the stuff of legends, on HfSens.....and for all the wrong reasons.

And it's the same people that didn't allow the Dahlen trade talk to die that held out the longest on Brady Tkachuk. If you have been around here long enough, you will start to see patterns...

In truth Dahlen was the small/weak, offensively dynamic junior scorer that those same people always push for in the mid 1st/2nd round of every draft. But the Senators never take that kind of player there. Ever. I get it. He got the extra fanfare here because of that fact, imo.

And those normally salty people were now twice as salty as a result of trading him. Especially for what became a very polarizing player. And that's why we all still have to hear about Dahlen today in 2023.

It's amazing that some people still don't understand what the controversy was with that trade.

 

[JD1]

This story seems to add a prospect every time you tell it

Pardon me? The man said the next day on radio...8th best prospect. I've said if before, I might say it again but I've not said it differently

 

[JD1]

The Dahlen trade is the stuff of legends, on HfSens.....and for all the wrong reasons.

And it's the same people that didn't allow the Dahlen trade talk to die that held out the longest on Brady Tkachuk. If you have been around here long enough, you will start to see patterns...

In truth Dahlen was the small/weak, offensively dynamic junior scorer that those same people always push for in the mid 1st/2nd round of every draft. But the Senators never take that kind of player there. Ever. I get it. He got the extra fanfare here because of that fact, imo.

And those normally salty people were now twice as salty as a result of trading him. Especially for what became a very polarizing player. And that's why we all still have to hear about Dahlen today in 2023.

Well, I brought it up because I recently saw that trade noted as a poor trade on Dorion's track record but it was also the year he was nominated for GM of the year and we had a great playoff run.

I actually chuckle at the irony of it.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I can't believe people are still arguing about the Dahlen trade.

It's so exhausting isn't it? I thought there was 2 new pages of posts in here, with content worth reading. Instead we're back to the usual tribalism over insanely meaningless prospects and depth players. This forum might be broken. I thought when the owner died, there might be some hope of people moving on and seeing the hopefulness of our future. But here we are on the eve of a new ownership and it's still the same. Maybe it's just never going to go back to how it used to be?

 

[Micklebot]

Pardon me? The man said the next day on radio...8th best prospect. I've said if before, I might say it again but I've not said it differently

Perhaps I'm thinking of somebody else? Apologies if I've mixed that up, but the point remains, having a deep pool doesn't change the value of the prospects in your pool, it just means you can afford to use some as trade bait.

 

[Hockeysawks]

....with Murrays team.

Murray was old and became extremely sick in 2014 passing away 3 years later, Dorion has been stuck with an insane amount of work over the last 9 or so years, he got the sens to a fun conference finals and has rebuilt the team on the smallest budget. Doing all of this working for the biggest dink around

He gets no respect, anyone who thinks he will never be hired again is crazy.

 

[Xspyrit]

Duclair wanted out, Balacers? Is he even in the NHL anymore?
He was forced to trade Zibby, EM told him to save cash.
Balacers bought out then placed on waivers again then out of the nhl
I guess Dubas can come in give Sanderson 10.5 for 5 years and then run Claude out of town because cap, bring Murray back and then act like he built a great team.
I wouldn’t put it past him to trade Brady for 1 year of Marner and hire keefe
God I hope they go any other direction.

I don't think it needs to be explained anymore. If someone can't see it by now, it's just because they can't let go the denial phase. Pierre Dorion is simply not a good NHL GM. He inherited probably the best situation in NHL history for a rebuild, and despite that after 6 years, the team is still not in the playoffs and is not even the #1 upcoming team with the best future. I mean, at some point, results speak for itself

But just to rectify :

- Duclair didn't want out
- Balcers was still in the NHL, got injured again. He could be back if he stops getting injured all the time but that was NOT the point. Something Dorion defendors have a hard time understanding because that's what denial does. The problem is WHY Balcers was waived. I mean, Cedric Paquette, Artem Anisimov and Alex Galchenyuk weren't. Montreal Canadiens waived Corey Perry and made the SCF that year
- Forced to trade Zibby... We don't know that for sure. He could have told EM "no we can't trade him as we believe in him, we'll save cash somewhere else as I will stop throwing out terrible contracts or paying CAP DUMPS with valuable draft capital

I mean, pro scouting evaluation, asset management, roster construction, foresight, coaching staff... a lot is terrible. Even drafting has gone down the last 2 drafts

But I am not forcing anybody to think we have not been in good hands. It seems pretty damn clear at this point though

 

[Golden_Jet]

Just to rectify lol
Duclair was offered a number, and declined, fired his agent , then went elsewhere for less money.
Lmao at Balcers

 

[Hockeysawks]

I don't think it needs to be explained anymore. If someone can't see it by now, it's just because they can't let go the denial phase. Pierre Dorion is simply not a good NHL GM. He inherited probably the best situation in NHL history for a rebuild, and despite that after 6 years, the team is still not in the playoffs and is not even the #1 upcoming team with the best future. I mean, at some point, results speak for itself

But just to rectify :

- Duclair didn't want out
- Balcers was still in the NHL, got injured again. He could be back if he stops getting injured all the time but that was NOT the point. Something Dorion defendors have a hard time understanding because that's what denial does. The problem is WHY Balcers was waived. I mean, Cedric Paquette, Artem Anisimov and Alex Galchenyuk weren't. Montreal Canadiens waived Corey Perry and made the SCF that year
- Forced to trade Zibby... We don't know that for sure. He could have told EM "no we can't trade him as we believe in him, we'll save cash somewhere else as I will stop throwing out terrible contracts or paying CAP DUMPS with valuable draft capital

I mean, pro scouting evaluation, asset management, roster construction, foresight, coaching staff... a lot is terrible. Even drafting has gone down the last 2 drafts

But I am not forcing anybody to think we have not been in good hands. It seems pretty damn clear at this point though

Your right Balacers was so good the sharks bought him out. I mean so good Florida placed him on waivers. What type of looser GM would put Balacers on waivers
Duclair wanted to stay soo bad he took half the money to play somewhere else

Best job ever is having your owner refuse to pay your best players so you are forced to trade them as pending UFA's is it?

 

[PlayersLtd]

Just to rectify lol
Duclair was offered a number, and declined, fired his agent , then went elsewhere for less money.
Lmao at Balcers

and much later in the summer after realizing 30 other GM's would not give him the money he thought he was worth.

And I can't believe people are willing to die on the Rudolf Balcers hill. Are they still arguing that in the same breath as Filip Chlapik or has that debate been conceded at least?

 

[swiftwin]

If I recall correctly.

Duclair wanted $5m (x5yrs)
We offered $3.4ish (x3yrs)
Duclair finally signed $1.7m (x1yr)

Dorion was right not to sign him.

But whatever, people love to re-write history to fit their narrative.

It's always amusing when people bring up the same garbage over and over and get shot down every time.

 

[DueDiligence]

He inherited probably the best situation in NHL history for a rebuild,

Exaggerate much?????

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I remember many posters in this forum, thought that the key player lost in the Matt Duchene trade, Shane Bowers was pretty much the sign of the apocalypse for the Senators….and that the franchise would never recover.



He has played one game in the NHL

 

[ToasterStutzle]

I was talking to a friend the other day about Dorion vs Dubas and after reviewing all the trade..... Dorion has honestly done very well.

A couple big L's (Zibby+ for Brassard/ Stone/Branny) but outside of that he has either won or it was a whateverburger trade.

Free agency is another conversation because outside of Giroux he has struggled, but he has done VERY well retaining our RFA's on good term/$ (Chabby, Tkachuk, Batherson, STUTZLE, even Norris imo is a good contract).

I'd be a little nervous to replace him as truthfully he hasn't done a bad job overall. Smith on the other hand, I'm over. Send him to the moon.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Plenty to justify both points of view imo. Lots of good lots of bad. The reason its so hotly debated. Anyone trying to lay down the law sounds ridiculous.

 

[thinkwild]

I find it hard sometimes to determine what to measure Dorion by. If my theory is correct, that Melnyk never intended to keep EK and told Dorion he had one last chance to win a Cup before descending into 5 years of unparalleled darkness as we get rid of the entire roster and start over via the draft. The first pick from that probably wont be ready for 3 years, and any semblance of a core that way will likely take 5 years. And during those years you will have to spend at the cap floor. And you wont be able to even admit we are rebuilding the first year so we can trick fans into still buying tickets.



Now if that was the marching orders, the decision to be judged would be: should we have given it one last chance at taking players to help that one year knowing they will all be gone the next, or should we have focused on maximizing the rebuild. At the time, I would have chosen to give EK and Stone a last chance. If we hadn’t I would have thought they were crazy. But in hindsight, well …



So then if the marching orders were to spend multiple years getting top picks and rebuilding through the draft while spending to the cap floor, then the ufa’s we would need are filler players. Players that are pro’s that can help a bit with the young players. But players that wont handcuff us long term. Now if that was the orders, all the signings were fine. None handcuffed us. We got rid of all of them.



Then the one year that the players and many fans thought ok, now is the time to go for it. Trade some firsts and get us into the playoffs. Well generally I disagree with that strategy. It feels like shooting your load prematurely. We hadn’t finished filling out a stable of prospects that would allow us to deal from a position of strength. But on the other hand, in the cap world, its hard to have that luxury of time anymore. So it is a more difficult call than it used to be.

During the Summer of Pierre, we mostly thought the moves were worth it. He made good moves at the time. But again in hindsight ..



So some suggest that GM’s should be judged in hindsight. Did the move work or not. I don’t always agree. I think we should be judging on whether it was a good risk knowing that not all risks pay off. It could fail but still have been a wise move that if done 10 times succeeds 6 times.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Plenty to justify both points of view imo. Lots of good lots of bad. The reason its so hotly debated. Anyone trying to lay down the law sounds ridiculous.

The back & forth rivalry between the camps gets a little old. Like you said, and with most things, there's some good and some bad.

And who is this Balacers dude? (LOL j/k).

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

It fo

I remember many posters in this forum, thought that the key player lost in the Matt Duchene trade, Shane Bowers was pretty much the sign of the apocalypse for the Senators….and that the franchise would never recover.



He has played one game in the NHL

What lol. Everyone made fun of them for picking Shane bowers.

We are living different realities.