Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IX [Mod Warning in post 1)

[Bjornar Moxnes]

While the 2020 draft was still legendary by all means, I'm still pretty upset that we couldn't ice this top 9 for next season:

Tkachuk-Stutzle-Giroux
Debrincat-Norris-Batherson
Greig-Pinto-Peterka

 

[Xspyrit]

Just to rectify lol
Duclair was offered a number, and declined, fired his agent , then went elsewhere for less money.
Lmao at Balcers

- Poster said "Duclair wanted out" which is factually false

- My post CLEARLY says "that was NOT the point" but you still come back with the same point? lol

Your right Balacers was so good the sharks bought him out. I mean so good Florida placed him on waivers. What type of looser GM would put Balacers on waivers
Duclair wanted to stay soo bad he took half the money to play somewhere else

Damn, how hard is it to write Balcers correctly?

Again, not sure why you guys make it seem like it's rocket science but it's NOT the point? The point is clearly explained. Any person/kid who can read has the ability to understand so not going to repeat.

Same for Duclair, completely missing the point.

Best job ever is having your owner refuse to pay your best players so you are forced to trade them as pending UFA's is it?

What does it have to do with being in the best situation for a rebuild?

Please tell me you're doing it on purpose lol

If you come back on this and miss the 3 points again, I'll have to ignore sorry.

and much later in the summer after realizing 30 other GM's would not give him the money he thought he was worth.

And I can't believe people are willing to die on the Rudolf Balcers hill. Are they still arguing that in the same breath as Filip Chlapik or has that debate been conceded at least?

Only a few people still don't get the point (I think they are voluntarily doing it though, no one is that clueless). It's not about Balcers. It's about us having an ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE PRO SCOUTING. Balcers is one small example. DeMelo and Duclair are other examples. Stepan another good one. What about Josh freaking Brown or Nikita Zaitsev? Or not knowing that Matt Murray was already the most injury prone player in the NHL then give him a 6.25 AAV x 4 years.

Could go on and on.

 

[Xspyrit]

Dorion was right not to sign him.

But whatever, people love to re-write history to fit their narrative.

Well, Dorion is one of the very few GMs that you don't need to use hindsight to analyze how bad he is at his job.

I criticized Anthony for firing his agent at the worst timing possible but then when you look at how Dorion spends money (by trading assets for bad overpaid players), I think most of us would have GLADLY overpaid Duclair.

It's always amusing when people bring up the same garbage over and over and get shot down every time.

Shot down by who?

Anyway, I don't really care if you guys agree or not. I know a lot do. And in the end, results speak the most.

Thankfully, we started the rebuild in the most ideal situation possible so we still have a chance at having a window. The longest Dorion and Smith are in charge, the narrowest it becomes.

Exaggerate much?????

Please find me one. It was a very unique situation because teams normally don't go earth scorched rebuild while their best players are in their PRIME

Karlsson, Stone, Duchene, Pageau, Brassard, Dzingel, etc + Chabot, Batherson, Formenton, Paul, etc

I was talking to a friend the other day about Dorion vs Dubas and after reviewing all the trade..... Dorion has honestly done very well.

Rebuilding is not supposed to be the hardest part... You lose and get high consolation prizes, you sell your assets as well as possible and cumulate draft capital, you exercise some very meticulous asset management and drive your asset net worth, you manage your cap/budget as well as possible and instead overpaying bad players, you take on players like Gostisbehere and cumulate even more capital. Etc

Dubas made one big mistake and tied his own hands with it

You can't really compare 2 opposite situations though. One is trying to win, the other can't stop losing. Both teams have had mostly bad results over the years. Ontario hockey has been sucking for a while

 

[Hale The Villain]

Even if Duclair was asking for too much money or preferred to play elsewhere, we had his RFA rights and could have just taken him to arbitration and kept him for the next year, even if a longer-term contract was unable to be worked out right away.

Letting him go for nothing was incredibly stupid and it's honestly unbelievable even the biggest Dorion bootlickers try to defend it.

Dude let a cheap 30-30 threat leave, just to trade a top 10 pick for scoring help in DeBrincat a couple years later to put up slightly better numbers. It's indefensible.

 

[Xspyrit]

Even if Duclair was asking for too much money or preferred to play elsewhere, we had his RFA rights and could have just taken him to arbitration and kept him for the next year, even if a longer-term contract was unable to be worked out right away.

Letting him go for nothing was incredibly stupid and it's honestly unbelievable even the biggest Dorion bootlickers try to defend it.

Dude let a cheap 30-30 threat leave, just to trade a top 10 pick for scoring help in DeBrincat a couple years later to put up slightly better numbers. It's indefensible.

Careful you're going to get "shot down"!

Duclair in Ottawa : 31 goals, 54 pts in 87 games

I would have gladly taking him on a 4 x 4 contract PLUS the 7th OA pick + 2nd + 3rd instead of DeBrincat and his 9.0 QO

Could you post one of your previous posts that exposed our pro scouting?

I had this for 2020-21

Stepan 6.5 AAV
Murray 6.25 AAV
Dadonov 5.0 AAV
White 4.75 AAV
Anisimov 4.55 AAV
Zaitsev 4.5 AAV
Gudbranson 4.0 AAV
Tierney 3.5 AAV
Dzingel 3.375 AAV

42.425 AAV

You could justify this if we CUMULATED assets to spend cap space (increasingly valuable in the NHL) like that but instead of that, we spent picks on it.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Careful you're going to get "shot down"!

Duclair in Ottawa : 31 goals, 54 pts in 87 games

I would have gladly taking him on a 4 x 4 contract PLUS the 7th OA pick + 2nd + 3rd instead of DeBrincat and his 9.0 QO

Could you post one of your previous posts that exposed our pro scouting?

Remember when he scored 21-22 goals by end of December, then the rest of year had an empty net goal. Ya that’s the guy to overpay lol.

 

[aragorn]

Wasn't Duclair the guy that Torts said "he didn't think he knew how to play hockey"? He's on his 6th team, there must be something they see that we don't, but who knows what goes on with these things, I'm not much of a fan of Torts.

 

[Xspyrit]

Remember when he scored 21-22 goals by end of December, then the rest of year had an empty net goal. Ya that’s the guy to overpay lol.

Remember when DeBrincat was vastly overpaid at 9.0 salary all season? Yeah that's the guy we paid a 7th OA pick + 2nd + 3rd to get and now most likely have to trade again. He was not even a need and probably cost us Paul + Brown in the end (what we needed, even if different players). Our 5v5 was terrible so clearly the need was not DeBrincat

Batherson at 4.975 took the heat all season but how is DeBrincat worth more?

So yes I would take the picks, the cap space and Duclair over DeBrincat without even thinking

Which would allow me to steal a player like Bjorkstrand for cheap and not have the worst bottom-6 in the whole NHL after I declare that "the rebuild is over"

But yeah, Dorion is a genius, we get it

Wasn't Duclair the guy that Torts said "he didn't think he knew how to play hockey"? He's on his 6th team, there must be something they see that we don't, but who knows what goes on with these things, I'm not much of a fan of Torts.

Well, now he plays 16 minutes on the possible Cup champs

 

[aragorn]

Remember when DeBrincat was vastly overpaid at 9.0 salary all season? Yeah that's the guy we paid a 7th OA pick + 2nd + 3rd to get and now most likely have to trade again. He was not even a need and probably cost us Paul + Brown in the end (what we needed, even if different players). Our 5v5 was terrible so clearly the need was not DeBrincat

Batherson at 4.975 took the heat all season but how is DeBrincat worth more?

So yes I would take the picks, the cap space and Duclair over DeBrincat without even thinking

Which would allow me to steal a player like Bjorkstrand for cheap and not have the worst bottom-6 in the whole NHL after I declare that "the rebuild is over"

But yeah, Dorion is a genius, we get it



Well, now he plays 16 minutes on the possible Cup champs

So does Colin White & two of the Stall brothers. Sometimes you get lucky where you end up on the right team at the right time.

 

[bicboi64]

Seeing Dahlen and Balcers name makes me chuckle. Dahlen has scored 22 points in 61 games, Burrows scored 25 in 91 while being shit on the ice. We had to buy Burrows out because he was so trash. A cash strapped team owned by Melnyk had to buy out Burrows, which speaks to his vet leadership's importance.

Keeping Balcers to play for the big club isn't because Balcers would've stopped us from being a lotto team. Giving an opportunity to a young guy you acquired in a trade who might have some upside is the reason you play him. He doens't have a high enough ceiling to pull us out of being a lotto team, and if he ends up being a bust, we stay a lotto team, during a rebuild. We're expecting to be a lotto team, that's the time to see what you have with developing prospects, not pay other scrubs for random intangibles.

 

[swiftwin]

Even if Duclair was asking for too much money or preferred to play elsewhere, we had his RFA rights and could have just taken him to arbitration and kept him for the next year, even if a longer-term contract was unable to be worked out right away.

Arbitration would likely have netted him high $3m, borderline $4m based on comparables (which relives heavily on stats). Duclair is pretty one-dimensional, so arb would have given us a very bad value contract. That's a really bad deal in a flat-cap, COVID ravaged market that was the 2020 offseason.

There's a reason he only got $1.7m on the open market.

I'm always amused when people think they are smarter than 31 general managers. It's one thing to think you're smarter than one GM, but smarter than every GM? Lmao!

 

[swiftwin]

Careful you're going to get "shot down"!

Duclair in Ottawa : 31 goals, 54 pts in 87 games

I would have gladly taking him on a 4 x 4 contract PLUS the 7th OA pick + 2nd + 3rd instead of DeBrincat and his 9.0 QO

Could you post one of your previous posts that exposed our pro scouting?

I had this for 2020-21

Stepan 6.5 AAV
Murray 6.25 AAV
Dadonov 5.0 AAV
White 4.75 AAV
Anisimov 4.55 AAV
Zaitsev 4.5 AAV
Gudbranson 4.0 AAV
Tierney 3.5 AAV
Dzingel 3.375 AAV

42.425 AAV

You could justify this if we CUMULATED assets to spend cap space (increasingly valuable in the NHL) like that but instead of that, we spent picks on it.

Spending $4m on a player that was PROVEN to only be worth $1.7m on the open market is the absolute peak of hfsens armchair GMing.

 

[swiftwin]

Seeing Dahlen and Balcers name makes me chuckle. Dahlen has scored 22 points in 61 games, Burrows scored 25 in 91 while being shit on the ice. We had to buy Burrows out because he was so trash. A cash strapped team owned by Melnyk had to buy out Burrows, which speaks to his vet leadership's importance.

Keeping Balcers to play for the big club isn't because Balcers would've stopped us from being a lotto team. Giving an opportunity to a young guy you acquired in a trade who might have some upside is the reason you play him. He doens't have a high enough ceiling to pull us out of being a lotto team, and if he ends up being a bust, we stay a lotto team, during a rebuild. We're expecting to be a lotto team, that's the time to see what you have with developing prospects, not pay other scrubs for random intangibles.

We did play Balcers. For 51 games, actually. It was clear by then that he was nothing special, so we cut him lose.

You're literally complaining about having to buy out Burrows while also criticizing Dorion for waiving Balcers who later had to be bought out by the team that claimed him from us!!!

I just can't even comprehend the f***ed up logic you've got going there. Dorion literally makes a good pro scouting move by cutting Balcers lose, and you're complaining we should have given him a chance "just because".

 

[bicboi64]

We did play Balcers. For 51 games, actually. It was clear by then that he was nothing special, so we cut him lose.

You're literally complaining about having to buy out Burrows while also criticizing Dorion for waiving Balcers who later had to be bought out by the team that claimed him from us!!!

I just can't even comprehend the f***ed up logic you've got going there. Dorion literally makes a good pro scouting move by cutting Balcers lose, and you're complaining we should have given him a chance "just because".

We're literally trying to tank. Waiving Balcers to play old vets served no purpose whatsoever when we are still rebuilding. Besides, we wouldn't necessarily have signed him to the same deal the Sharks did. Even their buying out of Balcers was questionable at the time since he had 23 points in 61 games and was the Shark's 6th highest scoring forward.

And the same season Dorion decides to waive Balcers, he also decides to acquire and sign Murray to a $6million aav, paying a 2nd for Stepan, and acquire Gudbranson. Dorion can't evaluate much at the pro level.

 

[swiftwin]

We're literally trying to tank. Waiving Balcers to play old vets served no purpose whatsoever when we are still rebuilding. Besides, we wouldn't necessarily have signed him to the same deal the Sharks did. Even their buying out of Balcers was questionable at the time since he had 23 points in 61 games and was the Shark's 6th highest scoring forward.

Old vets absolutely serve a purpose. They are important to stabilize the team full of young players and rookies. Meanwhile, playing a dud of a player like Balcers serves no purpose whatsoever.

And the same season Dorion decides to waive Balcers, he also decides to acquire and sign Murray to a $6million aav, paying a 2nd for Stepan, and acquire Gudbranson. Dorion can't evaluate much at the pro level.

Yet Stepan is still in the NHL playing on a team that made the conference finals, and Gudbranson still in the NHL playing top 4 minutes (on a division winner last year). Meanwhile, Balcers is bought out and playing in the AHL.

Shows what you know about pro scouting....

 

[PlayersLtd]

We're literally trying to tank. Waiving Balcers to play old vets served no purpose whatsoever when we are still rebuilding. Besides, we wouldn't necessarily have signed him to the same deal the Sharks did. Even their buying out of Balcers was questionable at the time since he had 23 points in 61 games and was the Shark's 6th highest scoring forward.

And the same season Dorion decides to waive Balcers, he also decides to acquire and sign Murray to a $6million aav, paying a 2nd for Stepan, and acquire Gudbranson. Dorion can't evaluate much at the pro level.

Of course it served a purpose. You don't tank by sending out a bunch of entry level players who have no NHL future alongside your core young players. You insulate your future with some vets who take the losses well, take some bullets for the team, shoulder the burden and show up to the rink everyday with a professional work ethic and attitude.

Everyone clamours about our pro scouting during the rebuild while omitting the fact that PD himself said he was looking purely for character guys. This explains guys like Stepan, Brown, Coburn, Gudbranson and Watson. This period needs a paradigm shift- our talent analysis criteria was not for on ice results.

There were some misses sure, every team has misses, but when people use the list of acquisitions between + - 2019-2021 they are fundamentally misunderstanding what the team was trying to achieve at the time.

And taking Duclair to arbitration was not a good option. If you don't get the result you want, you're stuck with it and as was mentioned he flat out disappeared for the second half of that season.

 

[swiftwin]

our talent analysis criteria was not for on ice results.

So, like... for tanking??

We're literally trying to tank.

I'm glad @bicboi64 agrees with us that these were good moves by Dorion.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Yet Stepan is still in the NHL playing on a team that made the conference finals, and Gudbranson still in the NHL playing top 4 minutes (on a division winner last year). Meanwhile, Balcers is bought out and playing in the AHL.

People look at things in a vacuum. Gudbranson didnt just inexplicably suck here for a season and then get better the moment he left. During the depths of the rebuild here it was not a situation where guys were going to thrive. It is really easy to look bad on a team who's leading scorer is on pace for 50 pts...

Similar reasoning to why Hamonic got a bad rap early here. People were so quick to hate on that move but he has looked more and more useful as the team has gotten better and I can only imagine how good he would be in a playoff drive.

It goes the other way too. People loved Luke Schenn's time in Toronto while conveniently forgetting that he was a pylon in Vancouver. I'm a Duclair fan but he put up 60 pts on the highest scoring team since the early 90's. I doubt he is a 50 point player let alone a 60 pt player on your average team.

 

[Hockeysawks]

We did play Balcers. For 51 games, actually. It was clear by then that he was nothing special, so we cut him lose.

You're literally complaining about having to buy out Burrows while also criticizing Dorion for waiving Balcers who later had to be bought out by the team that claimed him from us!!!
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I just can't even comprehend the f***ed up logic you've got going there. Dorion literally makes a good pro scouting move by cutting Balcers lose, and you're complaining we should have given him a chance "just because".

Well after watching a grown man struggle at his job on television for hours on end the logical conclusion is that three minutes of rest on the bench will turn things around

 

[JD1]

Seeing Dahlen and Balcers name makes me chuckle. Dahlen has scored 22 points in 61 games, Burrows scored 25 in 91 while being shit on the ice. We had to buy Burrows out because he was so trash. A cash strapped team owned by Melnyk had to buy out Burrows, which speaks to his vet leadership's importance.

Keeping Balcers to play for the big club isn't because Balcers would've stopped us from being a lotto team. Giving an opportunity to a young guy you acquired in a trade who might have some upside is the reason you play him. He doens't have a high enough ceiling to pull us out of being a lotto team, and if he ends up being a bust, we stay a lotto team, during a rebuild. We're expecting to be a lotto team, that's the time to see what you have with developing prospects, not pay other scrubs for random intangibles.

Your missing the 15 playoff games that Burrows played for us and the context that he was an important contributor in the year we acquired him.

In Balcers case, iirc his best shot at making the team he stepped on a puck in camp, slipped and blew his shoulder and by the time he was healthy he had less opportunity

There's lots of legit beefs about the past several years, beefing on two players that were moved out that amounted to nothing as NHL hockey players probably isn't the hill to die on.

 

[Micklebot]

Spending $4m on a player that was PROVEN to only be worth $1.7m on the open market is the absolute peak of hfsens armchair GMing.

This is pretty misleading, he's proven to be worth more than that given he's signed a subsequent 3 year deal. He's also proven to produce about 25 g and 60 pts with a plus 30 per 82 games since leaving here.

If anything, what he proved is that agents add value in contract negotiations, don't represent yourself kids,

 

[bicboi64]

Old vets absolutely serve a purpose. They are important to stabilize the team full of young players and rookies. Meanwhile, playing a dud of a player like Balcers serves no purpose whatsoever.


Yet Stepan is still in the NHL playing on a team that made the conference finals, and Gudbranson still in the NHL playing top 4 minutes (on a division winner last year). Meanwhile, Balcers is bought out and playing in the AHL.

Shows what you know about pro scouting....

Stepan , Gudbranson, all of these guys are playing in roles suited for them in the bottom pairs/6. Meanwhile Dorion thought they were valid acquisitions for our top4/6.

 

[thinkwild]

For Burrows, i dont think that he was bought out is indicative of what he brought. I think the fact that he then became an assistant coach is indicative of that. The kind of vet character we seem to want now for our bottom 6 rather than the replacement level player that gets traded and then bought out with seeming ok stats.

 

[bicboi64]

Of course it served a purpose. You don't tank by sending out a bunch of entry level players who have no NHL future alongside your core young players. You insulate your future with some vets who take the losses well, take some bullets for the team, shoulder the burden and show up to the rink everyday with a professional work ethic and attitude.

Everyone clamours about our pro scouting during the rebuild while omitting the fact that PD himself said he was looking purely for character guys. This explains guys like Stepan, Brown, Coburn, Gudbranson and Watson. This period needs a paradigm shift- our talent analysis criteria was not for on ice results.

There were some misses sure, every team has misses, but when people use the list of acquisitions between + - 2019-2021 they are fundamentally misunderstanding what the team was trying to achieve at the time.

Ah the classic, we're looking for character guys. There's no ways to measure stuff like character at all. Very rarely due players critique vets. We literally bought out a guy that wore an A for us and then paid for vets that were worse.

At least we got paid for Coburn, but guys like Stepan, Gudbranson, etc... are available via waivers/FA. You don't pay draft picks for vet insulation in a rebuild, especially when you are cash strapped.

 

[bicboi64]

Your missing the 15 playoff games that Burrows played for us and the context that he was an important contributor in the year we acquired him.

Burrows didn't have a single goal that whole series. Burrows scored at a decent bottom 6 rate for us in the regular season, but he wasn't exactly the reason we made the playoffs