WC: General Talk '14 — Switzerland

[stv11]

when you just look at the quality of hockey the swiss deliver... I guess it's the second best tournament they have played in the "new age of hockey" (... yeah, they were run over by the russians, but they played better than the result indicates in my opinion). it just shows what influence momentum/lucky bounces/confidence for most teams have on this level. (except for the very best like Russia or Sweden)

Not sure what you mean by "new age of hockey" (Simpson taking over in 2010? Uninterupted presence in the top pool since 1998? Pro hockey coming to Switzerland in the mid-80's?), but I'd say that even though there were good moments in every game, like the third period yesterday, we can't forget we had the third period against Germany, and all the defensive breakdown against Belarus after being in full control of the game with 10 minutes left. The team is terribly inconsistent, which unfortunately has happend a lot recently (especially during the 2010 and 2011 tournaments).

Regarding the quality of hockey offered by Switzerland (assuming 2013 is above all), I'd certainly rank this tournament below 2010 (four great games from start to finish, unlucky elimination), 2008 (four wins for the first time in ages, unlucky combination of results led to a QF against the best WC team in recent memory) and 2005 (5-1 against Germany, 3-3 against Russia, strong QF against Sweden). 2014 reminds me a lot of 2000, rollercoaster of emotions for the fans.

(By the way, this would be a great topic for the Swiss NT thread once the WC is over)

 

[duga]

of course,
it's a bit unusual to see the swiss having so much trouble in there d-zone (some sloppy plays, a few of them very untimely, and above all keeping the cool after taking a lead).

1)I guess not having some of there best Puck-movers like Vauclair, Streit, Diaz (and for STV11 Bezina ;-)) does have an influence.

2)As well as last year's experience, when they were able for the first time to gain some time for a proper first pass by playing the puck with a bit more confidence in the D-zone instead of just dumping the puck out. so you can save a lot of energy in prelimary round, that will be crucial once the medal-games get played. certainly there is a bigger risk for costly mistakes with that type of game, especially for a team like Switzerland, that can't dress (yet) 7 elite puck-movers.... so you still will get situations when swiss D have to strech there talent to make a play. That our forwards gained more confidence in the defenders last year, makes them leaving the D-zone just a split-second earlier, giving the D's even more pressure to make high quality plays.... it's just a logical process, a team at the border of being elite (like Switzerland) has to go through... longterm this are very valuable experiences.

3)Last year pretty much all big mistakes weren't exploit(ed) by opponents as opposed to this year. so we land once again in the momentum/luck bounces/confidence area....



in general I guess what the swiss are missing most in comparsion with other nations (even Beorussia or Latvia are much further here)
is leg strengh, armstrengh, powerskating, balance on skates. as a result of this they oftenly have to make perfect plays in O-zone to gaim some opportunities. while other nation gain chances much easier against the swiss by simply out-musculing them.

 

[torero]

I sort of agree with Douga, the new age of hockey meaning since Switzerland is having mercenaries ... and had a more attractive face ... which coresponds to when Simpson took over.

To me, this is the 3rd best tournament, after 2013 and 2010.

As you say,
the loss to Russia was not by the same magnitude than the score suggest, and we played baddly,
the american game should have been our game, thank you refs !
Bielorussia ... we played actually not too bad ... but made the unlucky mistakes on the bad moment.
Germany ... was ok ok ... not more.
Finland ... was good ... pitty we didn't convert more opportunites (shots were 28-25 but scoring opportunities were way in our favour)

We bring relatively good hockey on the table ... but with bad circumstances, bad luck, and maybe ... and time to change trainer.

in fact i have the feeling that the teams understood that they have to forecheck Switzerland not to allow them to develop the fast paced game. And we are having trouble with that. Simpson hasn't found the parade yet.

my 2ct divan watching, office clerk internet active never hockey player still hockey lover opinion.

 

[duga]

Not sure what you mean by "new age of hockey" (Simpson taking over in 2010? Uninterupted presence in the top pool since 1998? Pro hockey coming to Switzerland in the mid-80's?), but I'd say that even though there were good moments in every game, like the third period yesterday, we can't forget we had the third period against Germany, and all the defensive breakdown against Belarus after being in full control of the game with 10 minutes left. The team is terribly inconsistent, which unfortunately has happend a lot recently (especially during the 2010 and 2011 tournaments).

Regarding the quality of hockey offered by Switzerland (assuming 2013 is above all), I'd certainly rank this tournament below 2010 (four great games from start to finish, unlucky elimination), 2008 (four wins for the first time in ages, unlucky combination of results led to a QF against the best WC team in recent memory) and 2005 (5-1 against Germany, 3-3 against Russia, strong QF against Sweden). 2014 reminds me a lot of 2000, rollercoaster of emotions for the fans.

(By the way, this would be a great topic for the Swiss NT thread once the WC is over)

I meant mid-80is (when I started watching hockey ;-)), although the time before 98 isn't really relevant IMO (I know there was Prag, what a joyfull and lucky medal that was).

I disagree about 05,08, they were very joyfull results and tactically they were outstanding, but IMO the hockey they played was just too simple and destructive to be compared to Simpson aera.

I agree about 2010 that was the first year with Simpson right? that beginning was awesome. with all the hopes I had after having enjoyed his work for 1 and a 1/2 in the Hallenstadion. and then seeing him as Nationalcoach having the balls to let them play the same system...what a revelation!

plus we have to factor, Switzerland's being considered a contender since last year. Every opponent goes fullspeed and tactically adapted into the games.

I agree about the german game, what a disappointing, 3rd period.
But Belarussia is a strong opponent, they are at least as skilled, similarly talented skatingwise, but with more legstrengh, and physically dominant. When the play as good as a team as they did in Minsk or in the preparation-game (Arosa?) it's just a very competitive opponent.

I agree there's a lot of exciting stuff to discuss after this WCs

 

[jonas2244]

BLR is much better than they are meant to be, but we shouldn't have lost, you cannot loose such a game.

Sports at this level (and especially ice-hockey with all those bounces and redirections) is a lot of luck. Sometimes you are just unlucky and you cannot do much about it.

I think the players who are there are doing a good job, especially the rookies. If anyone would have said that we play with Schlumpf and Kukan in the Top-6 I'd have called him crazy. Same with Fiala, who is doing great.

If we could have Schlumpf/Kukan as 4th pairing it would be a good lineup on D. And on the Offence I especially don't like the 4th line. If you compare Rüfenacht/Schäppi/Stancescu with Bieber/Trachsler/Walker, that's a huge difference. And that 4th line was really a game-changer last year sometimes.

And Josi is again the best D-men of the tournament, he won't be MVP again, but he should. It's the biggest talent Switzerland ever had. I just hope he stays healthy.

 

[duga]

I sort of agree with Douga, the new age of hockey meaning since Switzerland is having mercenaries ... and had a more attractive face ... which coresponds to when Simpson took over.

To me, this is the 3rd best tournament, after 2013 and 2010.

As you say,
the loss to Russia was not by the same magnitude than the score suggest, and we played baddly,
the american game should have been our game, thank you refs !
Bielorussia ... we played actually not too bad ... but made the unlucky mistakes on the bad moment.
Germany ... was ok ok ... not more.
Finland ... was good ... pitty we didn't convert more opportunites (shots were 28-25 but scoring opportunities were way in our favour)

We bring relatively good hockey on the table ... but with bad circumstances, bad luck, and maybe ... and time to change trainer.

in fact i have the feeling that the teams understood that they have to forecheck Switzerland not to allow them to develop the fast paced game. And we are having trouble with that. Simpson hasn't found the parade yet.

my 2ct divan watching, office clerk internet active never hockey player still hockey lover opinion.

As I've written before, I go with you and STV11, 2010 was awesome.

I'm superhappy with the way they reacted yesterday, it's been a rare case historicaly, that a swiss team can compensate a 2 goal deficit against a contender. Lots of heart, lots of character!

I definitely agree about the swiss strenghs getting fully recognised by other coaches nowadays.
And no, I'm as said as Simpson that it will be his last WC as our coach. While I'm optimistic, when I see how tactically well the Beorussians have played under Hanlon, I guess we lose one of the best coaches Europe has ever seen, he truely understands the game, and is a wonderfull character and I'm pretty sure he'll end up as an NHL-coach very soon... SEHV as dilletantish as ever! (like the longterm Krueger-contract) but now I'm getting off-topic.

cheers

 

[stv11]

I meant mid-80is (when I started watching hockey ;-)), although the time before 98 isn't really relevant IMO (I know there was Prag, what a joyfull and lucky medal that was).

I don't really agree here. The whole process that lead to last year's medal arguably started with pro hockey coming to Switzerland, first through John Slettvoll, then with other teams such as Bern and Kloten following Lugano's model. On the national team level, the first result was the return to the top pool in 87, qualification for Calgary 88 (very strong tournament by Switzerland), then staying in the top pool in 91 (solid tournament too when you realise that no team was able to stay above one of the usual top 7 throughout the 80's). 92 was, in my opinion, Switzerland's best tournament before 2013. Of course, 93-97 was very disappointing, but you can't reduce everything that happend before 98 as "a lucky tournament in Prague".

I disagree about 05,08, they were very joyfull results and tactically they were outstanding, but IMO the hockey they played was just too simple and destructive to be compared to Simpson aera.

I think you need to separate enjoying the style of play with evaluating the quality of hockey. Playing a perfect defensive game is no easy task, and back then it was the only way for Switzerland to get results.

Beside, it's not like there wasn't any spectacular game in the Krüger era. Remember the quarterfinal against Slovakia in 2003? Switzerland was the better team, and only the huge difference in talent allowed Slovakia to win this game. Sound tactical play was needed for a team who couldn't count on any forward of Brunner or Niederreiter's caliber, and whose main offensive forces where guys like Plüss, Di Pietro or Rüthemann. Krüger tried it in Salt Lake city and the result was a disaster.

plus we have to factor, Switzerland's being considered a contender since last year. Every opponent goes fullspeed and tactically adapted into the games.

Not sure if there was a significant change here. Switzerland has been considered a serious opponents for quite some time now, and taken seriously by everyone way before last year. (I'd argue that no one consider any opponent easy anymore).

 

[stv11]

BLR is much better than they are meant to be, but we shouldn't have lost, you cannot loose such a game.

Belarus was a strong team until 2010, then it feels like Dinamo Minsk's inconsistency spilled over to the national team, but overall, I always had the feeling that this team never was as good as the sum of its parts. Switzerland should never have lost Monday's game, it was a textbook example of a team beating itself, being in full control and leading halfway through the third period and losing everything on two easily avoidable mistake.

I think the players who are there are doing a good job, especially the rookies. If anyone would have said that we play with Schlumpf and Kukan in the Top-6 I'd have called him crazy. Same with Fiala, who is doing great.

Agree too, this is good news considering that Seger and Vauclair are near the end of their international career, and it doesn't look like the next generation (I'm talking guys in the Blindenbacher/Von Gunten age range) will be as good as them.

If we could have Schlumpf/Kukan as 4th pairing it would be a good lineup on D. And on the Offence I especially don't like the 4th line. If you compare Rüfenacht/Schäppi/Stancescu with Bieber/Trachsler/Walker, that's a huge difference. And that 4th line was really a game-changer last year sometimes.

I think the 4th line is decent enough. Schäppi, in my opinion, would have been considered for a spot even without all the unavailable players, and Stancescu and Rüfenacht can fill the role. Of course, the offensive production doesn't match last year's 4th line, but I don't think even the exact same line would. Walker never scored more than 0.5 PPG in the NLA, Trachsler is a purely defensive player at this level, and Bieber is an energy guy before being a point producer. Last year's 4th line was an exception, something we shouldn't expect to happen regularly.

 

[jonas2244]

I didn't exactly mean only the offensive productin. I especially meant the defensive reliability. Trachsler is by far the best defensive center we have and Bieber is probably the best skater in the Swiss league. Walker is a big body who can skate and knows how to use his body.

Schäppi can turn into a Trachlser or even a Romy in the future, I'm fine with him, but neither Rüfenacht nor Stancescu can bring something special to this line. They're just solid NLA-players and if you want to be successful at the IHWC you need more.

And I think Von Gunten and Blindenbacher are as good as Vauclair and Seger, probably even a little bit better. But I'm very keen to see how Kukan and Schlumpf progress.

 

[stv11]

I didn't exactly mean only the offensive productin. I especially meant the defensive reliability. Trachsler is by far the best defensive center we have and Bieber is probably the best skater in the Swiss league. Walker is a big body who can skate and knows how to use his body.

Schäppi can turn into a Trachlser or even a Romy in the future, I'm fine with him, but neither Rüfenacht nor Stancescu can bring something special to this line. They're just solid NLA-players and if you want to be successful at the IHWC you need more.

It's true that Bieber, Walker and Trachsler are top notch in their role, but what I meant is that having Stancescu and Rüfenacht on the fourth line is not the reason why this year's team is not more successful. They definitely don't allow many scoring opportunities.

And I think Von Gunten and Blindenbacher are as good as Vauclair and Seger, probably even a little bit better. But I'm very keen to see how Kukan and Schlumpf progress.

I like Von Gunten and Blindenbacher, and thought they would take over from Seger and Vauclair, but they have slowed down recently. Blindenbacher was never the same after returning from his stint in the AHL, and I expected Von Gunten to become a more dominant player after he made the Olympic team in 2010. Both are fine to round up a top four or lead a third pair, but I don't think they'll ever be able to lead a power play or give a first pass like Seger, or carry the puck forward as decisively as Vauclair.

In my opinion, Blindenbacher and Von Gunten are 4th/5th defs, while Seger and Vauclair at their best were 2nd/3rd defensemen.

 

[FiLe]

I'm superhappy with the way they reacted yesterday, it's been a rare case historicaly, that a swiss team can compensate a 2 goal deficit against a contender. Lots of heart, lots of character!

I saw the Swiss papers call this year's Team Finland strong, but in reality it's one of the weakest iterations we've iced in years.

If you think I'm saying this only due to the result, go read the Finland thread. We've spent the past two weeks doing nothing but bashing the squad. Even more than usual.

 

[stv11]

I saw the Swiss papers call this year's Team Finland strong, but in reality it's one of the weakest iterations we've iced in years.

If you think I'm saying this only due to the result, go read the Finland thread. We've spent the past two weeks doing nothing but bashing the squad. Even more than usual.

Doesn't mean much, all 16 teams are bashed in their own thread

Only France, Latvia, Italy and Kazakhstan can be happy with their roster compared to what it could have been.

 

[FiLe]

Doesn't mean much, all 16 teams are bashed in their own thread

Note the "more than usual".

Seriously. Our squad is garbage, even by WHC standards. Rinne is way beyond the level of Berra, but our skaters are really no better than yours.

 

[stv11]

Note the "more than usual".

Seriously. Our squad is garbage, even by WHC standards. Rinne is way beyond the level of Berra, but our skaters are really no better than yours.

I'd argue that Finland in theory has more firepower, but they need a better contribution from players like Immonen, Lehterä and Jokinen. But it's true that they are not as impressive as usual on paper.

However, Finland is always better on the ice than on paper. And let's not forget that they came into this game after a dominant performance against Germany and perfectly managed a tricky high paced game against Belarus.

 

[FiLe]

However, Finland is always better on the ice than on paper. And let's not forget that they came into this game after a dominant performance against Germany and perfectly managed a tricky high paced game against Belarus.

Having watched both of those games, I can't really say if the result vs. Germany was Finland being good or Germany having an off day. Let's call it a bit of both.

In the Belarus game however, the script was identical to the Switzerland one. Finland potted an early narrow lead and spent the rest of the game defending it. More than half our defense consists of first-timers and they just collapse when the opposition ups the ante. The only difference was that the Swiss actually capitalized whereas Belarus was unlucky to find any holes in Rinne.

Coming back from a deficit is always impressive no matter who it is, but don't kind yourselves - this was not a comeback against a superior opponent.

 

[stv11]

Coming back from a deficit is always impressive no matter who it is, but don't kind yourselves - this was not a comeback against a superior opponent.

Considering the way both teams handled common opponents (Belarus, Russia and Germany), it's fair to say Finland has a better tournament than Switzerland.

I'd even say they are the 2nd best team in the pool. The USA only played well against Belarus.

 

[FiLe]

Considering the way both teams handled common opponents (Belarus, Russia and Germany), it's fair to say Finland has a better tournament than Switzerland.

I'd even say they are the 2nd best team in the pool. The USA only played well against Belarus.

Yet it's still entirely possible that our guys finish out of the QFs too.

Finland is better on paper - like I put it, simply Rinne accounts to that. However, they are better only slightly. Far from superior.

 

[torero]

what are our chances to qualify :

5 games : RUS 15
BLR 9
LAT 9
USA 8
FIN 8
6 games : SUI 7

To qualifiy for the QF we need :
Fin or USA, one of them needs to score max 1 point in the coming 2 games : they play together and play Kazakhstan and Germany. (most difficult part of the condition)
AND
we need to win our game agains Latvia ... of course in 3 periods
AND
one of Latvia or Bielorussia has to mark 0 points in the comming 2 games. they play together and play us (Switzerland) and Russia.
So this condition has more chances to be completed.

 

[Namejs]

Only France, Latvia, Italy and Kazakhstan can be happy with their roster compared to what it could have been.

I'm pretty sure we've never had so many unavailable players since 1997.

 

[Partagas]

what are our chances to qualify :

5 games : RUS 15
BLR 9
LAT 9
USA 8
FIN 8
6 games : SUI 7

To qualifiy for the QF we need :
Fin or USA, one of them needs to score max 1 point in the coming 2 games : they play together and play Kazakhstan and Germany. (most difficult part of the condition)
AND
we need to win our game agains Latvia ... of course in 3 periods
AND
one of Latvia or Bielorussia has to mark 0 points in the comming 2 games. they play together and play us (Switzerland) and Russia.

So this condition has more chances to be completed.

Allo ok what you said but we must make the run specially on the USA and Latvia because Finland will win sure against thr Kazahks and Belarus has a home game against Latvia .Belarus is an emotional team and i i hope they will win. I am sure the Finn will win against the americans too.
The keygame will be USA-Germany: we need a gift( miracle?) by our neighbour.

 

[chrigu6]

I think there is one aspect, that our Team needs to close the gap to the top 6 even more: A center with NHL-standard offensive skill.

In the last two decades Swiss goalies (Aebischer, Gerber, Hiller, Stefan, Berra), Defenders (Streit, Josi, Diaz, Weber, Sbisa) and only recently wingers (Brunner, Nino, Baertschi, Moser) were more or less able to breaktrough in Northamerica. But we don't have a center,that can perform on that level and I don't see, who coul'd make it there in the next years. Plüss is our best men on international level but he is only getting older. Vermin just started in the AHL, but I doubt, that he will make it in the big league (He even struggeld in the NLA to compete physicly).

I think we have hard working centers, but they are all more defensivspecialists (Trachsler, Walker etc.). Guys like Romy, i or Ambühl are not bad and it is a pleasure to watcht them play the game but IMO they still lack a NHL-Skill-Set. And the fact that Romy is our first line Centerman just shows the missing player material on that position.

 

[jonas2244]

Vermin is not a pure center I think, he can play everywhere.

Tanner Richard is an interesting player, also Schäppi has a lot of potential. But none of them really shows that he should end up in the NHL, all will probably end up having a great career in Europe (like Plüss).

 

[stv11]

Noah Rod looks interesting. I could see Schäppi become a 2nd/3rd line center for the national team, but I doubt he will be a dominant player. Same for Richards

 

[stv11]

Romy out for the tournament, US ahead on a fluke goal.

Not the best possible afternoon so far...

 

[Richi]

I think we have hard working centers, but they are all more defensivspecialists (Trachsler, Walker etc.). Guys like Romy, i or Ambühl are not bad and it is a pleasure to watcht them play the game but IMO they still lack a NHL-Skill-Set. And the fact that Romy is our first line Centerman just shows the missing player material on that position.

i does have the NHL-skill-set, he´s shown that earlier this season. What he lacks is consistancy and the will to really try. I think he just feels confortable too soon and then stops giving a 100% effort.
One thing that is clearly obvious is that he doesn´t feel comfortable with Simpsons system. This is one of the reasons why he came late to the NLA despite being the biggest offensive talent besides Nino at the time and why he often appears to be floating around at this WC.
And he´s just 24 and entering his prime, I think he will be a cornerstone of our national squad for years to come